punctuation: intrusion or guide?

[butters]

leaving prose right out of this, when you read poetry how do you feel about its usage?

i'm not talking about the kind of errors made with a misplaced or missing apostrophe but if you find the author is intruding on the write:

if they use none at all, do you wish they'd drop an affectation because you'd personally like some sort of guidance as to how it should be read?

if they use it fully, as once taught we should, do you see it as part of the poem or stage-directions by the author that doesn't permit you, the reader, the freedom to choose where you'd place stresses, stretch lines, create your own pauses?

there's always a middle-ground, of course.

this thread didn't come about solely because of Ash's preferences, but because the last small piece i wrote seems weighed down by semi-colons where i'd not normally opt to use them. initially, i hadn't, but felt they fitted the poem's own voice so added them; reading back through, i felt i was seeing my own hand dictating how it should be read and it felt stilted.

just thought it a topic worth opening up to discussion. as such, please feel free to bring examples to the table. for now, i'll post both versions of mine to illustrate what i mean.


Home
that place we see inside eachother's eyes
that door, that window, found within a touch
we're bricked and mortared, built on truth and trust
that spark of electricity - ah, lust
the fires of our hearts burn bright or banked
the ashes swept and daily we give thanks
that though the miles between us bluely roam
we've never felt so close, as now, to home




Home
That place we see inside eachother's eyes;
That door, that window, found within a touch;
We're bricked and mortared, built on truth and trust;
That spark of electricity - ah, lust;
The fires of our hearts burn bright or banked,
The ashes swept; and daily we give thanks
That, though the miles between us bluely roam,
We've never felt so close, as now, to home.

 

[Trixareforkids]

Ooh, I hope this gets a lot of discussion as I'm quite interested in the topic.

I'd fall in the middle ground. I will sometimes use line breaks rather than punctuation to lead the reader to hear it as it sounds to me, but that's inadequate at times and can make for messy and I've been told hard to read pieces. So I'm struggling with this very issue.

Susansnow uses very little punctuation and I personally love her style, but it's partly what she's saying that makes the lack of punctuation work. Her somewhat psychotic dream feel would disappear if it were 'properly' punctuated.

My own punctuation is of the simplest sort. Though at times highly painful to decide on. Mostly because I'm a grammar numbskull. It annoyed me in school and for all that I read constantly, I've not picked up much by osmosis.

So now that I'm giving poetry a real go, I'm an eager student and very interested in other's thoughts on the topic.

 

[Trixareforkids]

Home
that place we see inside eachother's eyes
that door, that window, found within a touch
we're bricked and mortared, built on truth and trust
that spark of electricity - ah, lust
the fires of our hearts burn bright or banked
the ashes swept and daily we give thanks
that though the miles between us bluely roam
we've never felt so close, as now, to home




Home
That place we see inside eachother's eyes;
That door, that window, found within a touch;
We're bricked and mortared, built on truth and trust;
That spark of electricity - ah, lust;
The fires of our hearts burn bright or banked,
The ashes swept; and daily we give thanks
That, though the miles between us bluely roam,
We've never felt so close, as now, to home.

To me the semicolons are superfluous in this piece. The line breaks and 'and' do the job IMO. The top version reads more smoothly and the only punctuation that felt out of place to me was the comma after 'close' in the last line. It feels better to read that as 'so close as now' pause 'to home' then with a pause between 'so close' and 'as now'.

I've gotten the sense in my short time on the threads that I hear things differently than most others so I'm curious to find if that's true.

 

[Trixareforkids]

A question. Has anyone else heard an author read their piece aloud and made you cringe and think, No! That's not how you read it. LOL. It's happened to me on multiple occasions.

I'd actually be interested in seeing how others 'hear' a written piece. Hmmm, can't use someone else's piece, will have to go dig up one of mine.

Ok, here's one that except for one comma, I used line breaks as the sole punctuation. It's an edited version of a 5 senses piece that I did a lot of line re-working on. I'm curious how others would punctuate it and I'm also curious how many others use line breaks as punctuation.

I paid too much for this hunk of junk
Just laughed when he called it a classic
So what does that make me
But the A/C works and the tires are good
I don't care what's under the hood
so long as it takes me away from here
Sold everything except my bug out bag
to a flea market man with a gleam in his eye
Filled her up at a tourist trap
where I bought a big sack of citrus
Now I'm in bumper to bumper on I75
trying to peel this place off of me
like the rind off of this oversized orange
Fresh Florida fruit my ass
the trees are just blossoming now
It's the only thing I'll miss about this dried out swamp land
that honeysuckle orange smell
wafting in as you drive past the groves
windows open, air conditioner going full blast
louder than the radio
This place has sucked the life outta me
like I'm sucking the juice from these oranges
As the road finally opens up
I toss the last dregs of orange out the window
grip the steering wheel tight as the ever present heat
rises from the blacktop to wave one last goodbye

 

[sr71plt]

I find either the lack of punctuation--or the misuse of it--more distracting than the proper use of it in poetry.

 

[twelveoone]

leaving prose right out of this, when you read poetry how do you feel about its usage?

i'm not talking about the kind of errors made with a misplaced or missing apostrophe but if you find the author is intruding on the write:

if they use none at all, do you wish they'd drop an affectation because you'd personally like some sort of guidance as to how it should be read?

if they use it fully, as once taught we should, do you see it as part of the poem or stage-directions by the author that doesn't permit you, the reader, the freedom to choose where you'd place stresses, stretch lines, create your own pauses?

there's always a middle-ground, of course.

this thread didn't come about solely because of Ash's preferences, but because the last small piece i wrote seems weighed down by semi-colons where i'd not normally opt to use them. initially, i hadn't, but felt they fitted the poem's own voice so added them; reading back through, i felt i was seeing my own hand dictating how it should be read and it felt stilted.

just thought it a topic worth opening up to discussion. as such, please feel free to bring examples to the table. for now, i'll post both versions of mine to illustrate what i mean.


Home
that place we see inside eachother's eyes
that door, that window, found within a touch
we're bricked and mortared, built on truth and trust
that spark of electricity - ah, lust
the fires of our hearts burn bright or banked
the ashes swept and daily we give thanks
that though the miles between us bluely roam
we've never felt so close, as now, to home




Home
That place we see inside eachother's eyes;
That door, that window, found within a touch;
We're bricked and mortared, built on truth and trust;
That spark of electricity - ah, lust;
The fires of our hearts burn bright or banked,
The ashes swept; and daily we give thanks
That, though the miles between us bluely roam,
We've never felt so close, as now, to home.

Not a true AB comparison, commas are in the top and Caps are now in the bottom one.
If you are asking the function of the semi-colon at the end of the line in reading of poetry, probably half-assed. (half way between comma and period)

The major difference is the emphasis placed is would be heavier here on B
and daily we give thanks That

Ambiguity is lost here in B
built on truth and trust;
That spark of electricity

and so on

Really comes down to what is your choice. With Due Diligence. i.e. you thought about it.

 

[twelveoone]

A question. Has anyone else heard an author read their piece aloud and made you cringe and think, No! That's not how you read it. LOL. It's happened to me on multiple occasions.

I'd actually be interested in seeing how others 'hear' a written piece. Hmmm, can't use someone else's piece, will have to go dig up one of mine.

Ok, here's one that except for one comma, I used line breaks as the sole punctuation. It's an edited version of a 5 senses piece that I did a lot of line re-working on. I'm curious how others would punctuate it and I'm also curious how many others use line breaks as punctuation.

I paid too much for this hunk of junk
Just laughed when he called it a classic
So what does that make me
But the A/C works and the tires are good
I don't care what's under the hood
so long as it takes me away from here
Sold everything except my bug out bag
to a flea market man with a gleam in his eye
Filled her up at a tourist trap
where I bought a big sack of citrus
Now I'm in bumper to bumper on I75
trying to peel this place off of me
like the rind off of this oversized orange
Fresh Florida fruit my ass
the trees are just blossoming now
It's the only thing I'll miss about this dried out swamp land
that honeysuckle orange smell
wafting in as you drive past the groves
windows open, air conditioner going full blast
louder than the radio
This place has sucked the life outta me
like I'm sucking the juice from these oranges
As the road finally opens up
I toss the last dregs of orange out the window
grip the steering wheel tight as the ever present heat
rises from the blacktop to wave one last goodbye

so but
and either Fresh Florida fruit is your ass or yur ass is a tree

what is distracting are the Caps here

 

[Trixareforkids]

so but
and either Fresh Florida fruit is your ass or yur ass is a tree

what is distracting are the Caps here

I see what you're saying, now that you've pointed it out to me.

And I have a sudden urge to write some nonsense about how my ass is blooming citrus tree.

 

[twelveoone]

I see what you're saying, now that you've pointed it out to me.

And I have a sudden urge to write some nonsense about how my ass is blooming citrus tree.

Orange blossoms
go well with a fake tan

 

[Magnetron]

Whatever floats your boat.

I find the more punctuation in poetry, the more distraction there is. Especially when you can make a non-dialogue statement with one or few words, which is not a proper English sentence.

Unless you end a sentence and began a sentence within a single line, a Period or a Question Mark in between really isn't necessary.

If your sentence and line end simultaneously, then there is really no point.

However, if you ask a question, a question mark helps you convey that it was a question and not a statement.

Rarely do I ever see a true need for colons or semi colons. I've personally used a colon once in 150+ writes.

Speech can easily be conveyed with italics ( or if cursive if hand written ), dispensing with the need for quotes.

 

[Trixareforkids]

Orange blossoms
go well with a fake tan

Hmm, I'm more a lime tree girl. Little starbursts that are like white freckles dotting the limbs, the opposite of me and it provides the counterbalance of tart to my sweet.

 

[twelveoone]

Whatever floats your boat.

I find the more punctuation in poetry, the more distraction there is. Especially when you can make a non-dialogue statement with one or few words, which is not a proper English sentence.

.

a proper Englosh sentence
when did we don the robes of propitiatory?
not to be confused with depilatory, which is something else

 

[champagne1982]

leaving prose right out of this, when you read poetry how do you feel about its usage?

i'm not talking about the kind of errors made with a misplaced or missing apostrophe but if you find the author is intruding on the write:

if they use none at all, do you wish they'd drop an affectation because you'd personally like some sort of guidance as to how it should be read?

if they use it fully, as once taught we should, do you see it as part of the poem or stage-directions by the author that doesn't permit you, the reader, the freedom to choose where you'd place stresses, stretch lines, create your own pauses?

there's always a middle-ground, of course.

this thread didn't come about solely because of Ash's preferences, but because the last small piece i wrote seems weighed down by semi-colons where i'd not normally opt to use them. initially, i hadn't, but felt they fitted the poem's own voice so added them; reading back through, i felt i was seeing my own hand dictating how it should be read and it felt stilted. <snip>

I'm the poet, so I figure part of my poeting job is to tell you how I want it read. Now, as the reader, if you want to ignore my directions go ahead. It's not a movie or a play of any sort. You aren't an actor and I'm not a director.

I use all kinds of devices. Sometimes you can infer by meter where you should pause, at others, there's a line break, and at more there's a punctuation mark. Enjambment means that I can trick you into reading past the end rhyme on a line but usually only if I've been using some other means of telling you where to pause.

You should get a Second Life account and join us for poetry open mics. That will give you a tonne of insight onto how poets read their own work.

 

[Trixareforkids]

I'm the poet, so I figure part of my poeting job is to tell you how I want it read. Now, as the reader, if you want to ignore my directions go ahead. It's not a movie or a play of any sort. You aren't an actor and I'm not a director.

I use all kinds of devices. Sometimes you can infer by meter where you should pause, at others, there's a line break, and at more there's a punctuation mark. Enjambment means that I can trick you into reading past the end rhyme on a line but usually only if I've been using some other means of telling you where to pause.

You should get a Second Life account and join us for poetry open mics. That will give you a tonne of insight onto how poets read their own work.

This brings up something that bothers me about spoken word poetry. There have been multiple references spread out across the pobo threads about reading a poem aloud. As I said, I've heard poets read their pieces aloud, pieces that I liked, and have found that I did not like them as read by the author.

I think it has more to do with cadence and where they read emphasis than with punctuation, but, is it not the work of punctuation to show where the emphasis is intended? And by not conveying those things, is the piece intentionally left open for interpretation or is it a failing of the punctuation?

 

[Remec]

A question. Has anyone else heard an author read their piece aloud and made you cringe and think, No! That's not how you read it. LOL. It's happened to me on multiple occasions.

I'd actually be interested in seeing how others 'hear' a written piece. Hmmm, can't use someone else's piece, will have to go dig up one of mine.

Ok, here's one that except for one comma, I used line breaks as the sole punctuation. It's an edited version of a 5 senses piece that I did a lot of line re-working on. I'm curious how others would punctuate it and I'm also curious how many others use line breaks as punctuation.

I started reading and thinking, but I've had one of those days and didn't really feel up to sorting out punctuation opinions, but I did have a question. You say you are using the line breaks for punctuation, are you also intentionally using the lack of capitalization to signify lines where there is no break, but the sentence runs right into (and through) the next one?

 

[butters]

some interesting points being brought up. i'll be back to take part tomorrow and to read other opinions

 

[greenmountaineer]

I'm a believer in form follows function. The nuns drummed punctuation into our elementary skulls sometimes to a fault. However, those lessons were part of the larger issue of grammatical structure.

If punctuation isn't needed because of intended line ending pauses or mid-line caesuras are obvious, I don't see the need, although when I look at some of my work, I must admit to sometimes being a creature of habit. A small stanza I think proves my point (or should I say, "a small stanza, I think, proves my point."(LOL))

The Last Days of de Sade

"I'm hungry once again.
The porridge sates my stomach
for five minutes, Guillory, you fool!"

He chides his jailer with disdain...

I really don't think commas here are needed before or after "Gillory" because the sonics in minutes and Guillory form the caesura.

 

[Trixareforkids]

I started reading and thinking, but I've had one of those days and didn't really feel up to sorting out punctuation opinions, but I did have a question. You say you are using the line breaks for punctuation, are you also intentionally using the lack of capitalization to signify lines where there is no break, but the sentence runs right into (and through) the next one?

The line breaks are the pauses in the sentences. The capitalization is the beginning of the next sentence. 1201 opined that the caps were distracting. I'm still mulling over whether they're a necessary distraction or just an annoying one. Maybe corollary to Butter's semicolons, following convention when it adds nothing and is possibly distracting?

 

[Trixareforkids]

I still don't know how to quote a post from another thread, but I'm reading the Butter's interview from last year and thought this post of Angeline's fit into this thread.


I can't really say that anything "spoils" it for me, because as I read through your offerings it still stood out as an especially good poem. So the lack of caps and punctuation did not keep me from getting that. And I also know that both lack of capping and even failing to punctuate or punctuating differently from what a reader would expect can actually be strengths in a poem (William Carlos Williams and ee cummings are perfect examples of that).

With the caps it is simply a matter of preference on my part. (I think.) I'm trying to think of a way your poem would be better served if you had treated the lines with caps and I'm not really succeeding in that effort, so let's leave it at preference.

The punctuation is another matter, and for me it is the consistency issue (something that frankly has been so drilled into my being as an editor that it's hard for me to leave things inconsistent--and sometimes it is better to do that in a poem). Let's look at your poem again:

who can tell me the shape of madness?
what varicose seas drive forth
in tension of the blood
what sad, voluptuous dreams become
escape from inner voices
as they burn the heretics -
over and over

It looks half-punctuated to me. Why place a question mark after "madness" but not after "blood" or "over" in the last line? They're all questions. I understand that you put a comma between "sad" and "voluptuous" because you don't want it read as if the former is modifying the latter, right? I also understand that you used a dash after "heretics" because you want the reader to pause before moving down to that last line. So why not put the rest of the necessary marks in? It seems as if they're just missing. I can, however, see why you wouldn't want a question mark at the very end of the piece. Once you put that dash in, you've passed the question part.

If I were editing it, I'd do something like this:

Who can tell the shape
of madness? What varicose seas
drive forth in tension
of the blood? What sad,
voluptuous dreams become
escape from inner voices?

They burn the heretics
over and over.

That's the full Angeline treatment lol and while it does resolve the problem of putting a question mark at the end of the poem, it probably changes it to a point where the poem doesn't work quite the same way anymore. But that is seeing it through my eyes.

I honestly am never sure how much my drive to make something look grammatically "right" has to do with me being an editor and how much with my preference as a poet.

Thanks for being so willing to look at your writing on such a micro level. I love you for your poems AND your confidence. It's a great learning experience pour moi, Divine Ms. B.


It's the bold section that was especially interesting to me having worked with editors and graphic artists and listened to some of the debates that went on between the two over ascetics vs propriety. I've also done simple copy editing and I'm with Angeline, inconsistency bugs the bajeepers out of me. Poetic license or not, it always makes me pause and it's something I have to get past, in both poetry and prose, to enjoy the piece. Even though I'm guilty of it myself from time to time.

 

[Magnetron]

Go to other thread
Quote desired post
Copy desired quote
Return here and hit reply
Paste said copy into new post

 

[todski28]

Go to other thread
Quote desired post
Copy desired quote
Return here and hit reply
Paste said copy into new post

Interesting piece, enjoyed the way you used no punctuation but capitalised each line to ensure your reader could get it. Reads kind of like a list of instructions, am I missing the expanded metaphor?

Since I am functionally retarded and have the gramattical skills of a two year old I constantly fuck it up,
(hope the word fuck didn't offend any of the women in the room sorry trix )

I am very interested in this conversation, I think 1201 made the most valid point, as long as you thought about it.
Can you validate why or why you didn't, are you trying to slow the reader down, emphasise something, or highlight it for later as part of a foreshadowing effect?

Since I am a novice at punctuation and grammatical structure I have basically learnt on the fly by reading others work with and without and tried to experiment with whatever I can.

 

[KatieJones]

I like consistency of usage. If you punctuate anywhere in a poem you need to consistently punctuate throughout the poem or opt to not punctuate at all.

 

[Remec]

The line breaks are the pauses in the sentences. The capitalization is the beginning of the next sentence. 1201 opined that the caps were distracting. I'm still mulling over whether they're a necessary distraction or just an annoying one. Maybe corollary to Butter's semicolons, following convention when it adds nothing and is possibly distracting?

If I tracked that part of the discussion correctly, wasn't his problem with capitalization of words in what seemed an arbitrary manner? I have no problem with using it to begin a fresh sentence--especially without punctuation to actually indicate when the sentences end.

 

[Trixareforkids]

If I tracked that part of the discussion correctly, wasn't his problem with capitalization of words in what seemed an arbitrary manner? I have no problem with using it to begin a fresh sentence--especially without punctuation to actually indicate when the sentences end.

Well if it was, then my sentence structure sucked because the beginning of sentences and "I" were the only capitals that I used.

 

[butters]

To me the semicolons are superfluous in this piece. The line breaks and 'and' do the job IMO. The top version reads more smoothly and the only punctuation that felt out of place to me was the comma after 'close' in the last line. It feels better to read that as 'so close as now' pause 'to home' then with a pause between 'so close' and 'as now'.

I've gotten the sense in my short time on the threads that I hear things differently than most others so I'm curious to find if that's true.

agree about the semis, and think it's probably best with no commas at all in that last line. still not sure, as i'd read it as if i'd used commas where i had them and the precedence was set in earlier lines. which is part of the question i.e should the hand of the author show so much? does it get in the way? i think that, for you, it did since you prefer it to sound other than is directed.

A question. Has anyone else heard an author read their piece aloud and made you cringe and think, No! That's not how you read it. LOL. It's happened to me on multiple occasions.

omg yes.

to be completely honest, i rarely enjoy hearing poetry being read aloud though i've enjoyed live poetry nights because thhe people made it fun. i prefer how it sounds in my head as i read. it's been my experience that most poets (i include myself!) simply aren't the best orators of the written word. those few that have the voice? they could read a thesaurus and sound fabulous! an american poet friend of mine from years ago had that kind of voice and it was a treat to hear him read aloud. i only like it when i whisper my own

I'd actually be interested in seeing how others 'hear' a written piece. Hmmm, can't use someone else's piece, will have to go dig up one of mine.

Ok, here's one that except for one comma, I used line breaks as the sole punctuation. It's an edited version of a 5 senses piece that I did a lot of line re-working on. I'm curious how others would punctuate it and I'm also curious how many others use line breaks as punctuation.

I paid too much for this hunk of junk
Just laughed when he called it a classic
So what does that make me
But the A/C works and the tires are good
I don't care what's under the hood
so long as it takes me away from here
Sold everything except my bug out bag
to a flea market man with a gleam in his eye
Filled her up at a tourist trap
where I bought a big sack of citrus
Now I'm in bumper to bumper on I75
trying to peel this place off of me
like the rind off of this oversized orange
Fresh Florida fruit my ass
the trees are just blossoming now
It's the only thing I'll miss about this dried out swamp land
that honeysuckle orange smell
wafting in as you drive past the groves
windows open, air conditioner going full blast
louder than the radio
This place has sucked the life outta me
like I'm sucking the juice from these oranges
As the road finally opens up
I toss the last dregs of orange out the window
grip the steering wheel tight as the ever present heat
rises from the blacktop to wave one last goodbye

line 3 could be scrapped without hurting the poem - i think there's enough either side to get the idea that l3 makes. yeah, that's not what you asked

i'd keep the comma where it is, find the line-breaks and caps do the job intended, and the only quibble i'd raise is the 'fruit my ass/the trees' phrase which might benefit from either italics for 'my ass' or commas. given the lack of punctuaion throughout, i think italics might do the work and be less intrusive. just my opinion='sall i got.

I find either the lack of punctuation--or the misuse of it--more distracting than the proper use of it in poetry.

would it then be fair to say it's the voice of the poet (via stage-directions) rather than the voice of an individual poem you want to hear? i get that certain poems require full punctuation to 'feel' right - stylistically, or because of formality of topic. what about those written in a more *grimaces* shall we say 'modern' manner, or even haiku? do you think your preferences exist because of your affiliation with prose as an author of stories?

Not a true AB comparison, commas are in the top and Caps are now in the bottom one.
If you are asking the function of the semi-colon at the end of the line in reading of poetry, probably half-assed. (half way between comma and period)

The major difference is the emphasis placed is would be heavier here on B
and daily we give thanks That

Ambiguity is lost here in B
built on truth and trust;
That spark of electricity

and so on

Really comes down to what is your choice. With Due Diligence. i.e. you thought about it.

thanks, yes i suppose it wasn't a straightforward comparison, and being more about the overall punctuation choices made in each version. the thing is, i first wrote it as it looks in the top example, but felt (at the time) the cadence, the styling, called for more - as if it were more formalised. i always try for the voice of the poem as it forms, trying not to intrude with my heavy handedness. but once it was done, it felt overdone, and it felt stilted, weighted, and not true to itself. of the two, i prefer the first, but maybe there's some middle ground would suit it better. dunno thanks