the marks of a slave

[eastern sun]

Heh. Well, I just know that when I compare my actions to a slave's actions, I may or may not see a difference. Thinking of myself as property is when it becomes difficult for me. It's hard for me to get what it is that makes a slave, since there isn't really a single model or definition.

To just say that someone is property doesn't really make it all clear. My cell phone and a piece of family jewelry are both property, but I obviously treat them differently. I have said before, well, I can't be a slave because I don't do x. And inevitably someone will come back and say, well, that's not our model of slavery anyway. Ultimately, the word that comes to mind when I think of me and my PYL, again and again, is partnership. Not equal, but still, a partnership.

You always raise challenging points, itw.

Part of the reason I always put the word slave in quotation marks is that I don't want to confuse my experience with real slavery. Lots of modern-day slaves end up in NYC through a series of desperate hopes and deceitful promises. They end up in Chinese restaurants, prostitution, and probably a lot of other places I don't know anything about, "paying off" their passage to America. I don't want to pretend that my experience is in any way comparable to theirs. In fact, I've often thought that I should get involved in organizations helping to repatriate women who have become victims of white slavery rings just to balance my karmic debt.

I do, however, find the idea of sexual slavery incredibly exciting. Even the idea of non-consensual sexual slavery resonates at some deep subconscious level. Along the lines of the captured daughter of the king forced to become a member of the conquering warlord's harem. The shattering loss of status. The impossibility of escape. The struggle to accept one's fate. (All the stuff of fantasy, to be sure, but what else do we base our sexuality on but our fantasies.)

My training as a child did not make me an automatic submissive. I came out of my family's home yelling and screaming at anyone who would stand still long enough to hear it. I broke a lot of dishes throwing them across the kitchen. I also thought it was my duty to give my opinion on everything, and my opinions were laced with a lot of judgement in order to support my weak self-esteem.

And then I met my husband.

I think my identification as a "slave" even more than a "sub" - I've actually never called myself a "sub" - comes from the experience of "forced submission." Over the years, I have learned that I can fight my husband's will, but we are never happy when I do.

When I adopt the position of a "slave," the framework of our relationship changes dramatically. The facts are still the same, but with a different mindset, my reactions change. Then my actions change. And then his reactions change. And we are happier.

I actually made the initial suggestion that I was his "slave," and wanted to be. I had thought of myself as his slave for years without even being aware of the terms "dominant/submissive" in their sexual meaning. He was totally surprised. (in a good way)

Once we began working with the dynamics formally, we hit huge obstacles. But here we are, years later, still at our happiest when I am his "slave."

We may differ from other M/s couples in that he doesn't feel like he actually owns my body. (i.e. He would enjoy selling it at a slave auction in a club, but he would never feel he had the right to sell it to anyone outside clearly defined parameters.) He doesn't mind requiring me to fuck other people, though. And he is very clear on the things that matter to him (i.e. where he likes hair and where he doesn't, no tattoos, etc.).

There are times when I like to think of myself as an inanimate object, especially during sex. Sometimes, if we're out in the city, I'm hyperaware of how I look on his arm, and objectify myself that way. More often, I think of myself as "his woman."

A living being is so different from a piece of jewelry or a cell phone, it's like comparing apples and oranges, or rather, apples and rocks. But I do feel like I belong to him. My labor belongs to him. My future belongs to him. Even my internal world, my secrets, my fantasies, belong to him. And he is free to have access to them whenever he desires. (You'd be surprised how frequently I don't want to let him know what I'm thinking.)

I'd be curious how people in other M/s relationships view the ownership rights. I think it is open to different interpretations, but there may be underlying "rules" I'm not expressing.

 

[eastern sun]

In conversations with a dom I've had the pleasure of knowing, I did a lot of thinking on the difference between a "pet" and a "toy." This is what I wrote at the time.

******************************************************

"both pets and toys belong to Someone

the pet belongs to her Master, the One on whom she depends for her security, her shelter, her sustenance. the Master, in His position, trains the pet according to His will, and expects the pet to follow His commands. her temperament may make her more or less obedient to her Master's will, but the pet always knows the hand that feeds her. the Master appreciates the deep affection of His pet. and the well-trained, well cared-for pet is grateful for the care she receives. it is the life they share together that deepens the love and bond between a Master and his pet.

the toy also belongs to its Owner. and an Owner with respect for His belongings would never break or damage His toys. but the toy neither needs nor expects the kind of care a pet may require. the toy knows why she was created, what purpose she serves, and is only moved into action by the play of the Owner. when He's finished, a toy will remain where she was placed until He is ready to play again. and she is always ready and willing to be played with, for she can only fulfill her purpose during play. the Owner will always have His favorite toy, and is able to discover and express the creativity of His own imagination when He's playing with her

maybe the man who has everything has a need for both pets and toys"

*******************************************************
My point is that all these terms - "pet," "toy," "slave," all denote ownership. They also imply certain qualities in the nature of what the owner can expect.

To me "slave" has connotations of labor and captivity that are not included in the terms "pet" or "toy."

(By the way, I wanted to be that dom's "toy." )

 

[Wolfspet]

I've had a very strange relationship for years. We seem to drift in and out of M/s depending on her whim, which drives me insane. For years there's nothing, and then something triggers it again, and off we go...

About seven years ago, I surrendered ownership of myself to her. She owns me, and there is no doubt in my mind at any time that this is a fact. It is independent of domination or any other action on her part.

This can cause problems. It doesn't work for us when she lays down the law and expects me to obey indefinitely without any further feedback. It may very well work for some people, and I realize this. (Not sure if the ability to follow instructions indefinitely with no other feedback and attention is "the mark of a true slave", but I certainly have been told so on other boards when discussing this subject.) I require some sort of active domination to be more than nominally submissive.

But she owns me just the same. Always.

BTW, I used to identify as a "slave." Wolf was not comfortable with that designation. Slavery is something that we both abhor irl. Now I identify as a "pet," and that is perfectly comfortable for both of us. It's also a pretty accurate mirror of the way we relate to one another. I am a "pet" with duties, kinda like a service animal, but a pet nonetheless.

 

[SinfulSailor]

Maybe a bigger question is "why do I need to feel like a "slave" in order to treat him well"?

Then:

My training as a child did not make me an automatic submissive. I came out of my family's home yelling and screaming at anyone who would stand still long enough to hear it. I broke a lot of dishes throwing them across the kitchen. I also thought it was my duty to give my opinion on everything

...snip...

Over the years, I have learned that I can fight my husband's will, but we are never happy when I do.

When I adopt the position of a "slave," the framework of our relationship changes dramatically. The facts are still the same, but with a different mindset, my reactions change. Then my actions change. And then his reactions change. And we are happier.

Purely through my own observations and experiences working to form my opinions, I think you answered your own question. I think it is part of our current socialization process to teach women to rebel against men. Strangely and counter-productively, I think women are taught to rebel *even when the man is right*! Indeed, it seems to me I have noticed resentment in some women that their man is reasonable, thoughtful, and as a result, often right in his judgments.

Having been around for the bra-burnings, the advent of widespread use of "the pill", widely touted as revolutionarily freeing women to enjoy and experience their sexuality as never before in the history of humanity; having been an outspoken and active supporter of "women's rights" (equality in opportunity, independence, remuneration, education, thought, sexuality, opinion, and so on) I can see how the pendulum of societal philosophy gained momentum and swung from an extreme of denial of women's rights to what I consider a problematic swing to the current societal situation of teaching women that to follow a man *at all* is demeaning to her individually and (just as importantly) actually traitorous to all her sisters.

That leaves a woman with two very highly ingrained prejudices to overcome, should she want to submit to a man. Namely, she must overcome her own socialization and the "equality" prejudices and taboos ingrained in her through the socialization process. And second, she must somehow come to terms with her peers who she fears will think less of her, ostracize her and criticize her for living her submissive desires. (And I have observed that fear to be well founded and played out even here and other places among other kinksters.)

Indeed, and by way of example, it is to the societal philosophical swing and the personal contradictions it creates for women, as I described above, that I credit the creation and continuation of the whole "doormat" concept.

I was around online before the term "doormat" began to be used. I am here now. Anyone who has read the personals (and do check for yourself if you haven't already) will recall "I am no doormat". Read another personal written by a woman submissive. "I am no doormat." And another, "I am no doormat." Ad infinitum. Often followed by, "I have a brain."

Strangely, but significantly, I have never talked to (or read) a male PYL say, "my pyl is a doormat". Nor have I ever talked to (or read) a male PYL say, "my pyl has no brain". Nor have I ever read a personal by a male PYL that said, "doormat wanted". Nor have I ever read a personal written by a male PYL that said "pyl with no brain wanted". Yet, mysteriously, these protestations by female pyl's continue. (It's been years and years and years now that they've been writing these phrases!) "I am no doormat!" "I have a brain!"

Ok. Since male PYL's are not advertising or definitionally seeking doormats or pyl's with no brain, then it occurred to me some time ago, that's not why female pyl's continue to renounce these things over and over and over.

So then I asked myself, what is going on with these female pyl's? What are they really saying? My own personal opinion/conclusion:

1. They're bolstering their own self image. When they say these things, women seem to not really be talking to the men who eventually will read the personal ad. Or if they are talking to the men at all, it is a warning that is being given. Read some yourself. See if that isn't how it sounds to you. How productive is that, to warn away the PYL's she's trying to attract?

The self image women have been taught to strive for is to not be a follower of men. Moreover, they have been socialized to (forcibly or at least almost forcibly) exert themselves in such a way that it is clear to their lover(s) that they are captain (or at very least co-captain) of a relationship. This, she has been taught, is the only way to maintain an acceptable level of self worth and self esteem.

2. I think in large part, women pyl's are not really talking to the men who will read their personal ad. I think they're talking to their peers, their sisters. I think they're saying, "Look, I want to submit, but I'm doing it on my own terms, see? I'm demanding. I'm the one laying down the law and the rules. So, it's ok. Don't think less of me. 'I'm no doormat. I have a brain'. I am exercising the majority of control, or at least an equal control."

Maybe a bigger question is "why do I need to feel like a "slave" in order to treat him well"?

So........ Well.......

If there is any merit to what I write here, then perhaps when you feel like a slave you are able to purge yourself of the destructive inhibitions I describe above. Perhaps by forgetting about the whole "I am no doormat" mindset with all its inherent angst-creating limitations and contradictions, perhaps by embracing your submission and his dominance through a conscious choice of and claim to slavery you are able to just enjoy your (and his) nature and your relationship freely, fully and harmoniously.

I don't know. But maybe.

 

[intothewoods]

You always raise challenging points, itw.

Part of the reason I always put the word slave in quotation marks is that I don't want to confuse my experience with real slavery. Lots of modern-day slaves end up in NYC through a series of desperate hopes and deceitful promises. They end up in Chinese restaurants, prostitution, and probably a lot of other places I don't know anything about, "paying off" their passage to America. I don't want to pretend that my experience is in any way comparable to theirs. In fact, I've often thought that I should get involved in organizations helping to repatriate women who have become victims of white slavery rings just to balance my karmic debt.

Absolutely.

I do, however, find the idea of sexual slavery incredibly exciting. Even the idea of non-consensual sexual slavery resonates at some deep subconscious level. Along the lines of the captured daughter of the king forced to become a member of the conquering warlord's harem. The shattering loss of status. The impossibility of escape. The struggle to accept one's fate. (All the stuff of fantasy, to be sure, but what else do we base our sexuality on but our fantasies.)

I find all of that stuff pretty hot too.

My training as a child did not make me an automatic submissive. I came out of my family's home yelling and screaming at anyone who would stand still long enough to hear it. I broke a lot of dishes throwing them across the kitchen. I also thought it was my duty to give my opinion on everything, and my opinions were laced with a lot of judgement in order to support my weak self-esteem.

And then I met my husband.

I think my identification as a "slave" even more than a "sub" - I've actually never called myself a "sub" - comes from the experience of "forced submission." Over the years, I have learned that I can fight my husband's will, but we are never happy when I do.

When I adopt the position of a "slave," the framework of our relationship changes dramatically. The facts are still the same, but with a different mindset, my reactions change. Then my actions change. And then his reactions change. And we are happier.

I actually relate to a lot of this, although I worked through much of this in my head and in therapy after my marriage split up (and trying to figure out where D/s fit into my life), looking at past relationships, and then talking a lot to my PYL. It's in my nature to be stubborn, to want to rebel, and there is a part of me that can be resentful of partners. I find myself in a much happier place when I let go of things, and accept his final word. We have both noticed that if he has not made a decision on something, I will sometimes push and be kind of a pain in the ass until he puts his foot down. I'm not proud of that, but just that, sometimes the structure of D/s makes me a much happier person.

I actually made the initial suggestion that I was his "slave," and wanted to be. I had thought of myself as his slave for years without even being aware of the terms "dominant/submissive" in their sexual meaning. He was totally surprised. (in a good way)

Once we began working with the dynamics formally, we hit huge obstacles. But here we are, years later, still at our happiest when I am his "slave."

We may differ from other M/s couples in that he doesn't feel like he actually owns my body. (i.e. He would enjoy selling it at a slave auction in a club, but he would never feel he had the right to sell it to anyone outside clearly defined parameters.) He doesn't mind requiring me to fuck other people, though. And he is very clear on the things that matter to him (i.e. where he likes hair and where he doesn't, no tattoos, etc.).

There are times when I like to think of myself as an inanimate object, especially during sex. Sometimes, if we're out in the city, I'm hyperaware of how I look on his arm, and objectify myself that way. More often, I think of myself as "his woman."

A living being is so different from a piece of jewelry or a cell phone, it's like comparing apples and oranges, or rather, apples and rocks. But I do feel like I belong to him. My labor belongs to him. My future belongs to him. Even my internal world, my secrets, my fantasies, belong to him. And he is free to have access to them whenever he desires. (You'd be surprised how frequently I don't want to let him know what I'm thinking.)

I'd be curious how people in other M/s relationships view the ownership rights. I think it is open to different interpretations, but there may be underlying "rules" I'm not expressing.

The terminology is difficult. He owns my body in so far as he is interested - which means he sets the rules about what someone else can and can't do. And what he can do with it, of course. But he has never expressed an interest in piercings or any sort of presentation, and he has never been into selecting outfits or any of that. I totally relate to the part about your labor and your future, but we are both sort of way into a twisted kinky 50s housewife thing. Also, fwiw, we look at (future) household decisions as a shared effort, but he has a veto. While we do talk about everything, we are both allowed our own fantasies - or fantasies that don't always involve each other, if that makes sense.

The veto thing is really the best way I can express our power dynamic. He doesn't set out a lot of orders, but he always has the veto, and he does use it.

Then:



Purely through my own observations and experiences working to form my opinions, I think you answered your own question. I think it is part of our current socialization process to teach women to rebel against men. <snip>

Eh, not quite (to me, anyway). I think women and men are resentful of, and rebel against each other, and there are many reasons for it.

 

[Netzach]

There's social pressure to some degree, for women "to rebel against men even when the man is right" maybe - MAYBE - depends on context. For about 30 years.

There's social pressure most of the time for women to not rebel against men even when they're wrong for about as long as we've been walking upright.

Sorry, this "it's so hard to be a femsub" meme really should meet the inside of my head someday. I would love, LOVE to have a sexuality that made it easier and more socially acceptable sometimes. I know that real femsubmission isn't necessarily that, but it looks a LOT easier to me, sometimes and what I've got looks a lot harder than I ever seem to get credit for.

Try explaining that you're not really going to be happy until you've made your date bleed and try explaining that simply getting on top when you are fucking is not what you mean by "control." You think that's more socially fine?

Yes, all sexual fringe behavior can be feminist, liberating, cool, hip. Or not.

I get that. But it still leaves me with a slightly *bitter* aftertaste when it's being suggested that I've got the better end of the stick somehow, because Domination doesn't make a lot of y'all sing inside, to the point where it must look like women's magazine "feminism" or something. People who think it's more socially acceptable tend to have no idea what it actually means, what it feels like, how raw, wrong, and UN-OK you are with yourself when you are stuck with this. It's not just let's put on some boots and look hot and have someone clean the place.

 

[SinfulSailor]

Yes, all sexual fringe behavior can be feminist, liberating, cool, hip. Or not.

I get that. But it still leaves me with a slightly *bitter* aftertaste when it's being suggested that I've got the better end of the stick somehow, because Domination doesn't make a lot of y'all sing inside, to the point where it must look like women's magazine "feminism" or something. People who think it's more socially acceptable tend to have no idea what it actually means, what it feels like, how raw, wrong, and UN-OK you are with yourself when you are stuck with this. It's not just let's put on some boots and look hot and have someone clean the place.

Please forgive if by omission it appeared that I slighted female PYL's and/or male pyl's (or F/f or M/m participants for that matter).

I omit because these are not relationships with which I have any experience. So, I try to leave it alone. I try to avoid being presumptuous. I have experienced and thought a lot about M/f d/s relationships, so they're the focus of the observations and philosophies I share.

Hopefully there will be overlap and anyone who thinks about what I offer will take something good or helpful or encouraging or thought provoking away with them when they're done with it. But that's a big hope and unlikely to always be fulfilled.

 

[Wolfspet]

Try explaining that you're not really going to be happy until you've made your date bleed and try explaining that simply getting on top when you are fucking is not what you mean by "control." You think that's more socially fine?

Yes, all sexual fringe behavior can be feminist, liberating, cool, hip. Or not.

I get that. But it still leaves me with a slightly *bitter* aftertaste when it's being suggested that I've got the better end of the stick somehow, because Domination doesn't make a lot of y'all sing inside, to the point where it must look like women's magazine "feminism" or something. People who think it's more socially acceptable tend to have no idea what it actually means, what it feels like, how raw, wrong, and UN-OK you are with yourself when you are stuck with this. It's not just let's put on some boots and look hot and have someone clean the place.

Oh, hell, let's face it. *All* of this is hard. With the possible exception of the online BDSM communities that I've found, it's effing impossible to explain my sexuality to a group of people without someone getting squicked out. Many of the people who can cope with the same sex thing can't cope with the kink thing, and being bisexual is kinda like being a switch. Almost nobody gets that!

Just had a conversation with a new friend about whether BDSM people are inherently mentally unstable, or whether being mentally unstable makes one attracted to BDSM. "Present company excepted, of course!" she says. WTF?

I can see exactly what you're saying, Netzach. Being a dom isn't easier. It's *all* hard.

Might we take this to another thread to be discussed at length? Interesting points, but I don't want to disturb the flow of ES's observations. This is one of my fave threads.

 

[Netzach]

Yeah, I don't mean to clog things up. Sorry about that.


easternsun, maybe you treat him better within a "slave" framework, because it's how you are and that's it. It's the thing that trips your ability to focus onto others more effectively. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Netzach]

Please forgive if by omission it appeared that I slighted female PYL's and/or male pyl's (or F/f or M/m participants for that matter).

I omit because these are not relationships with which I have any experience. So, I try to leave it alone. I try to avoid being presumptuous. I have experienced and thought a lot about M/f d/s relationships, so they're the focus of the observations and philosophies I share.

Hopefully there will be overlap and anyone who thinks about what I offer will take something good or helpful or encouraging or thought provoking away with them when they're done with it. But that's a big hope and unlikely to always be fulfilled.

That's cool. It's just that the "blame the feminist paradigm" seems so much cheaper and easier to me than the "blame capitalistic postindustrial individual-over-all ism." If it's so much harder for women to embrace slavery because of feminism, I must ask how easy it would be for the man pointing this out to get on his knees and bow and scrape. "It's just not in my makeup" yeah, I know.

It takes a LOT of chutzpah and a lot of "getting over" things to even consider, even for many people who *want* it.

It's not easy for *anyone* in a postindustrial culture to get into their humility and focus on other people, even if it makes them happy. That's very second-class status, we see it in how people think about parenting, service careers, service positions.

There's a reason that *male* submission is even uglier and more taboo a lot of the time, and any submission still is, and I think it's more than just gender in play. Everyone is supposed to fight like hell for their OWN advantage. To do something for someone else to your own disadvantage or at least superficial disadvantage is seen as weakness. Period. Definitely for women and definitely even more so for men.

 

[KarolJamie]

I really need help becoming a slave...

 

[eastern sun]

I really need help becoming a slave...

What kind of help do you need?

 

[eastern sun]

To everyone -

I think the conversations are wonderful.

We all hold a piece of the truth. If we place all our pieces together like some giant jigsaw puzzle, we might get a better sense of the bigger picture. . . .

 

[BiBunny]

In conversations with a dom I've had the pleasure of knowing, I did a lot of thinking on the difference between a "pet" and a "toy." This is what I wrote at the time.

******************************************************

"both pets and toys belong to Someone

the pet belongs to her Master, the One on whom she depends for her security, her shelter, her sustenance. the Master, in His position, trains the pet according to His will, and expects the pet to follow His commands. her temperament may make her more or less obedient to her Master's will, but the pet always knows the hand that feeds her. the Master appreciates the deep affection of His pet. and the well-trained, well cared-for pet is grateful for the care she receives. it is the life they share together that deepens the love and bond between a Master and his pet.

the toy also belongs to its Owner. and an Owner with respect for His belongings would never break or damage His toys. but the toy neither needs nor expects the kind of care a pet may require. the toy knows why she was created, what purpose she serves, and is only moved into action by the play of the Owner. when He's finished, a toy will remain where she was placed until He is ready to play again. and she is always ready and willing to be played with, for she can only fulfill her purpose during play. the Owner will always have His favorite toy, and is able to discover and express the creativity of His own imagination when He's playing with her

maybe the man who has everything has a need for both pets and toys"

*******************************************************
My point is that all these terms - "pet," "toy," "slave," all denote ownership. They also imply certain qualities in the nature of what the owner can expect.

To me "slave" has connotations of labor and captivity that are not included in the terms "pet" or "toy."

(By the way, I wanted to be that dom's "toy." )

Ok, first of all, I wanna say that I really, really like this, for some reason. While the man uses the terms "pet" and "slave" interchangeably, I suppose I am, at heart, a pretty heavily-indulged pet. (Again, with the cat analogies.)

I don't identify with "sub" at all because I'm not one. I don't really have a submissive personality. People-pleaser and approval-seeker? Probably. But I don't equate those traits with submission. And "toy"? Nope. I admit that I'm too high-maintenance. So "pet" it is. Perhaps with a slave's mindset, but I don't know if I'd really say that my situation is that of a slave's. I said it in another thread--masochistic service pet is about the best way I can describe myself.

I said all that to say this. I get a lot out of my relationship, but I often wonder what, exactly, he gets out of it. I sometimes fear that I need too much from him and don't give enough in return.

That's cool. It's just that the "blame the feminist paradigm" seems so much cheaper and easier to me than the "blame capitalistic postindustrial individual-over-all ism." If it's so much harder for women to embrace slavery because of feminism, I must ask how easy it would be for the man pointing this out to get on his knees and bow and scrape. "It's just not in my makeup" yeah, I know.

It takes a LOT of chutzpah and a lot of "getting over" things to even consider, even for many people who *want* it.

It's not easy for *anyone* in a postindustrial culture to get into their humility and focus on other people, even if it makes them happy. That's very second-class status, we see it in how people think about parenting, service careers, service positions.

There's a reason that *male* submission is even uglier and more taboo a lot of the time, and any submission still is, and I think it's more than just gender in play. Everyone is supposed to fight like hell for their OWN advantage. To do something for someone else to your own disadvantage or at least superficial disadvantage is seen as weakness. Period. Definitely for women and definitely even more so for men.

Yes. And let's not forget that if not for feminism, none of us would be here posting right now, most likely.

There's a stigma associated with every part of this lifestyle. For example, anyone on this board who isn't a femsub or an Mdom is likely to feel out of place at least occasionally, msubs and Femdoms, especially, simply because the majority of the board is people in Mdom/femsub relationships. On a forum that is mostly Femdoms and msubs, most of the people here would feel out of place, I'm sure. And, hey, that's not even taking into account the "real world" here. Even switches have our own set of issues. I'm sure there's a reason that most of my real-life kinky friends are switches like me.

Let's be honest with ourselves here. We're all "abnormal." (No "well, what is normal, anyway?" comments, please. I put the word in quotation marks for a reason.) Most people aren't going to automatically accept something outside their scope of experience, no matter what.

What works for me is keeping my sexuality to myself, for the most part. I really don't give a shit what vanilla people do in their bedrooms, so I assume the same goes for me in their minds. I'm not here to convert people. I just wanna be left alone, for the most part. I don't feel like I'm being untrue to myself just because I don't shout it from the rooftops. If you ask, I'll tell you. But most people are polite enough not to ask.

 

[catalina_francisco]

What works for me is keeping my sexuality to myself, for the most part. I really don't give a shit what vanilla people do in their bedrooms, so I assume the same goes for me in their minds. I'm not here to convert people. I just wanna be left alone, for the most part. I don't feel like I'm being untrue to myself just because I don't shout it from the rooftops. If you ask, I'll tell you. But most people are polite enough not to ask.

Have to say we are on the same page here. I really do not care what anyone else does, nor do I particularly care whether they know about what we do, or approve...the only important thing is that it works for us. I think for some who have more overtly exhibitionist tendencies, being noticed, given the opportunity to show the world, and getting the sense of approval or admiration from others can play a very big part in how much they enjoy their lifestyle pursuits...wea ll differ.

As to feeling out of place, I think in part that can be something which does not matter if you are in an environment of like minded, or among complete opposites to ourselves, at least for me it is. I have rarely felt part of anyplace or group. I can feel accepted on a certain level, I can even feel enthusiastic or passionate about the same things, but I never feel 100% like I am one of the group. For the most part I think that is in some part to do with me as a person and my inner self, but it also does not cause me to long to be different anymore...acceptance and feeling comfortable with it can go a long way toward not looking for the approval and acceptance of others, but being at peace all the same.

Catalina

 

[eastern sun]

Have to say we are on the same page here. I really do not care what anyone else does, nor do I particularly care whether they know about what we do, or approve...the only important thing is that it works for us. I think for some who have more overtly exhibitionist tendencies, being noticed, given the opportunity to show the world, and getting the sense of approval or admiration from others can play a very big part in how much they enjoy their lifestyle pursuits...we all differ.

Catalina

I always feel such burning, stinging shame when I come face to face with my desire to be seen. Like I'm always asking for more attention than is my due. Like I've breached some boundary of social decorum. And I honestly can't tell if I have, or not.

Since I have strong exhibitionistic desires (and I'm a performing artist to boot), this is a recurring theme in my life.

I think we all want to be noticed. And have our truth recognized.

But I carry so much old shame . . . and then generate new shame with my egotism and clumsy blunders . . . this is not an area where my vision is unclouded.

 

[eastern sun]

easternsun, maybe you treat him better within a "slave" framework, because it's how you are and that's it. It's the thing that trips your ability to focus onto others more effectively. There's nothing wrong with that.

I like how simply this is stated, Netzach. Thanks.

 

[eastern sun]

perhaps by embracing your submission and his dominance through a conscious choice of and claim to slavery you are able to just enjoy your (and his) nature and your relationship freely, fully and harmoniously.

I don't know. But maybe.

Definitely.

I want to tell you my mother's story.

My parents were 50's kids, embodying the ideals of their generation. They were bright, polished mirrors of their parents' values and virgins on their wedding night.

My handsome father was being groomed as a budding politician, and my mother left college in her senior year to marry him and follow him into his promising future. Before long, he won a fellowship in political science at UCBerkeley and both my brother and I were born.

But it was 1963. Berkeley, California. The shock of JFK's assassination tore at the seams of their tightly woven world. Within a year, my mother was sleeping with her best friend's husband. My father dropped out of school to chase hippie chicks across the Northern California landscape. And she was left with two toddlers and a bitter taste in her mouth.

She was a pioneer in women's rights back then. Due to our broken home, I was assigned a social worker when I went to school. But she went back to school herself, and eventually earned her Ph.D. at Berkeley, studying American History with a focus on women's history and childrearing.

With her tight 50's values, and her deep mistrust of radical irresponsibility, she became a most unlikely feminist. I thought she was a hypocrite, though she went on to launch women's studies programs in rural state colleges, only to be destroyed in the end by academic politics.

It wasn't until I lay next to her in the months before she died, that I discovered her true secret identities. A child soldier in the revolutionary war, fighting for a cause she didn't fully understand. A punishing witch, frightened and angry at a world that had rejected her. And the senator's wife, gracious and elegant, basking in the halo of her husband's power.

All my life, I had completely misunderstood her. I had only tasted the bitter fruit she bore. And failed to see the sweetness that was left to rot, unpicked and fallen to the ground.

And it was only after she died that I even began to embrace this aspect of my sexuality on a conscious level. I wonder what she thinks of me.

 

[eastern sun]

And when I tell the Bengali women whose daughters are in my daughter's class at school "I must go, my husband is waiting," they knit their brows and frown and shoo me with their hands, "yes, go, go, the husband must always come first, we're sorry to keep you, go, go"

I smile, so grateful that they understand.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I'd be curious how people in other M/s relationships view the ownership rights. I think it is open to different interpretations, but there may be underlying "rules" I'm not expressing.

Master and I view my ownership very much like that of owning a car. I have used this metaphor before to counter those who insist that the sub always holds the aces and controls the relationship because they have needs and limits and there are always circumstances (however extreme) when a sub/slave would leave a relationship (what if he ordered you to kill someone?) yadda yadda yadda.

As his slave, I am a valuable possession that would cost time and effort to replace. I do have needs and limits but they fall under a basic duty of care and maintenance or I will not perform at an optimum level. You can drive a car like a lunatic, it is (to a degree) your right to drive a car you own irresponsibly. If you do that however, it will inevitably break or crash and you're left catching the bus.

Having needs and limits does not mean I have ultimate 'control.' A car may have a certain engine size and maintenance needs but it does not dictate where the driver goes to, what route they take, how fast they drive and how many stops are made along the way. Needs and limits do not equal authority.

He has owned me for some time now, so he knows how I handle, what little changes to make in how he drives me to get optimum performance and efficiency, what I am capable of and what would cause me too much stress and potential damage. The more time he spends with me, learning me, the more responsive I become and like a well oiled machine, I adapt according to his use of me, moulding to his style and wearing in like a leather shoe until I'm as familiar and comfortable as possible. My purpose in life is to take him wherever he wants to go, it's what I was built for and what he selected me from many options to achieve.

Master has the choice. He can be attentive and responsible in his ownership of me, showing me off to the world proudly and buffing my bodywork on a Sunday afternoon. He also has the option to leave me to rust and just hope that I'll still take him wherever he wants to go without breaking down along the way. He can jealously guard the keys or hand them to friends to borrow me on a whim. His authority extends as far as he wants it to and my value to him appreciates according to how he treats me and how much importance he assigns to my needs.

I still think it's a good metaphor and we do joke about it often. One day he might trade me in for a younger model or even have some of my bodywork replaced and the dings knocked out but at present, he is completely happy with his ride.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Master and I view our ownership very much like that of owning a car. I have used this metaphor before to counter those who insist that the sub always holds the aces and controls the relationship because they have needs and limits and there are always circumstances (however extreme) when a sub/slave would leave a relationship (what if he ordered you to kill someone?) yadda yadda yadda.

As his slave, I am a valuable possession that would cost time and effort to replace. I do have needs and limits but they fall under a basic duty of care and maintenance or I will not perform at an optimum level. You can drive a car like a lunatic, it is (to a degree) your right to drive a car you own irresponsibly. If you do that however, it will inevitably break or crash and you're left catching the bus.

Having needs and limits does not mean I have ultimate 'control.' A car may have a certain engine size and maintenance needs but it does not dictate where the driver goes to, what route they take, how fast they drive and how many stops are made along the way. Needs and limits do not equal authority.

He has owned me for some time now, so he knows how I handle, what little changes to make in how he drives me to get optimum performance and efficiency, what I am capable of and what would cause me too much stress and potential damage. The more time he spends with me, learning me, the more responsive I become and like a well oiled machine, I adapt according to his use of me, moulding to his style and wearing in like a leather shoe until I'm as familiar and comfortable as possible. My purpose in life is to take him wherever he wants to go, it's what I was built for and what he selected me from many options to achieve.

Master has the choice. He can be attentive and responsible in his ownership of me, showing me off to the world proudly and buffing my bodywork on a Sunday afternoon. He also has the option to leave me to rust and just hope that I'll still take him wherever he wants to go without breaking down along the way. He can jealously guard the keys or hand them to friends to borrow me on a whim. His authority extends as far as he wants it to and my value to him appreciates according to how he treats me and how much importance he assigns to my needs.

I still think it's a good metaphor and we do joke about it often. One day he might trade me in for a younger model or even have some of my bodywork replaced and the dings knocked out but at present, he is completely happy with his ride.

I think that's a perfect metaphor.

 

[eastern sun]

Master and I view my ownership very much like that of owning a car.

. . .

I still think it's a good metaphor and we do joke about it often. One day he might trade me in for a younger model or even have some of my bodywork replaced and the dings knocked out but at present, he is completely happy with his ride.

Wonderful metaphor. What does it feel like to be his car?

 

[eastern sun]

I apologize to my husband for treating him like the child he is not.

I will never tell him to put on his hat and zip his coat again.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Wonderful metaphor. What does it feel like to be his car?

Interesting question.

I feel loved and valued but I am also aware that my value to him remains in direct correlation with my use as a slave. I do wonder occasionally what I would do if he ever released me and it usually gives me a much needed jolt out of the complacency that can set in with time and familiarity.

I am used very much according to his mood. Sometimes we'll have a romantic day, pootling along, sightseeing and being cuddly. Other days he'll burn me up the nearest motorway and use me as an outlet for his need to push me to my limit, see what performance he can wring out of me and remind me that my comfort and wellbeing remains at his mercy. He'll throw me into overdrive and dare me to be the first to blink. We both know that I always am.

He does like me to look good so that he is proud do be seen with me and can make other men jealous. I've never been a girly girl and I often lapse when it comes to being arm candy. Like a car, my appearance and attributes are a reflection upon him and his judgement.

Oh I could go on like this all day.

I feel treasured. But I also know that my beauty will fade, my allure will evaporate and younger, sleeker, faster models will be available and inevitably he'll be tempted. It keeps me motivated to please and serve and to know that nothing lasts forever, least of all me.

 

[eastern sun]

I still think it's a good metaphor and we do joke about it often. One day he might trade me in for a younger model or even have some of my bodywork replaced and the dings knocked out but at present, he is completely happy with his ride.

I have to return here again, Velvet.

The experience of being traded in for a new model after years of faithful service is no joke. Especially if he's used you pretty rough and pretty hard.

In my experience (and I'm almost 50 years old), this has been the hardest of the hard things to face.