Your Most Hated Tropes

[DEFCOM5]

I try to. I have had some important supporting characters who were not and one love interest who was working class. My current WIP has small farm farmers, who are not poor *they have their own farms) but are certainly not wealthy. But I will need to run that one by a former student who grew up in a farming family to sanity check everything.

I also tend to have my main characters be very successful/talented at something, usually math or tech, for much the same reasons, which also ends up with people well off financially.

I hear you. I am in the same boat. Grew up blue collar (father worked for the utility company, mother was a cleaning lady) and got lucky as they pushed education on me and I got into the investing world because I was good at math and money flows in that toxic industry. So I know that I am a lucky bastard.

In the only story I ever wrote (rather than the scenes, again very small sample), one character has money and one does not. Same thing in my Halloween story (to be published tomorrow, so sue me for plugging it. It will be in SF/F so 3K reader top if I am lucky). So I get the one has $, one does not trope.

One day, I will feel confident enough to write a story about people from the lower end of the economic spectrum.

 

[Erozetta]

Yes, and the average is 2k, the house in the story was 1800, thus smaller than average, otherwise known as modest.

Oh, right, yeah, totally modest and not at all within the average range.


Realistically, most people are going to see "modest" and 1800 sq ft and think "that's a 3-4 bedroom house with at least two bathrooms." Modest would be 2 bedrooms or less with one bathroom, which would typically fall in the 800-1500 range. While an average house would fall in the 1500-2200 range and anything above 3k sq ft is ostentatious.

There's nothing wrong with calling an 1800 sq ft house average, but modest it ain't.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Oh, right, yeah, totally modest and not at all within the average range.


Realistically, most people are going to see "modest" and 1800 sq ft and think "that's a 3-4 bedroom house with at least two bathrooms." Modest would be 2 bedrooms or less with one bathroom, which would typically fall in the 800-1500 range. While an average house would fall in the 1500-2200 range and anything above 3k sq ft is ostentatious.

There's nothing wrong with calling an 1800 sq ft house average, but modest it ain't.

That all depends on what part of the country you live in.
You will not find a house in the Southern US built by a major builder in the last 30 years that is smaller than 1500 square feet. As I mentioned previously, the economics of building it don't make sense these days.
So sure, if you want to talk 70 year old houses built in the 50s, you are onto something. That isn't the reality for a large portion of the country.
And again, we are talking starter homes in areas that are not considered wealthy.

 

[DEFCOM5]

A modest sized condo and a modest sized home are two entirely different things.

Again, urban versus non-urban. A modest size condo where I live is <1000 SF.

A modest house is <2000 but we know we are in an wealthy part of the US.

I think that if the writer wanted to made the reader understand that the house was modest, they should not have included the square footage. You and I would have interpreted differently and this is what good writing is about.

 

[DEFCOM5]

Late stage capitalism would be hysterical if it weren’t happening to us all. ‘Thanks for taking out a loan to purchase this tractor! Now you can pay us monthly for the machine (with interest of course because we finance our own stuff to get that sweet interest) and pay us even more every month so the machine you’re already paying for will work!”

Everything can be sold as a service if you’re greedy enough!

The whole Software as a Services / subscription model is the best example of that rip off.

You want to use the tool. Rent it from us for ever. We won't sell it to you.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Again, urban versus non-urban. A modest size condo where I live is <1000 SF.

A modest house is <2000 but we know we are in an wealthy part of the US.

I think that if the writer wanted to made the reader understand that the house was modest, they should not have included the square footage. You and I would have interpreted differently and this is what good writing is about.

But claiming the writer is "clueless" when their writing accurately reflects the area the story is set in is unfair.

 

[iwatchus]

That all depends on what part of the country you live in.
You will not find a house in the Southern US built by a major builder in the last 30 years that is smaller than 1500 square feet. As I mentioned previously, the economics of building it don't make sense these days.
So sure, if you want to talk 70 year old houses built in the 50s, you are onto something. That isn't the reality for a large portion of the country.
And again, we are talking starter homes in areas that are not considered wealthy.

It also depends if you are talking the general population or home owners. And you are excluding mobile homes in your calculus. I had the sense you lived in Texas. They have more mobile homes than any other state.

 

[DEFCOM5]

But claiming the writer is "clueless" when their writing accurately reflects the area the story is set in is unfair.

I stand by clueless because they did not realize that it was not the case outside certain areas.

And people living outside north america will just shake their heads.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

It also depends if you are talking the general population or home owners. And you are excluding mobile homes in your calculus. I had the sense you lived in Texas. They have more mobile homes than any other state.

I don't anymore, and we are talking new build stats. So "manufactured housing" isn't included in that.
If you are talking about mobile homes, I think "modest" is kind of baked in.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I stand by clueless because they did not realize that it was not the case outside certain areas.

And people living outside north america will just shake their heads.

How do you know what they did or didn't realize? Why is the writer obligated to pander to your socio-economic concerns?

Can I not refer to a Kia Soul as a "small car" because in some parts of the world it isn't considered small?

And if they shake their heads it is because they are "clueless" about housing sizes in the US.

 

[iwatchus]

I don't anymore, and we are talking new build stats. So "manufactured housing" isn't included in that.
If you are talking about mobile homes, I think "modest" is kind of baked in.

Sticking with Texas because I just looked up the stats, more than ten percent of all non-attached dwellings in the state are mobile homes. Excluding mobile homes, only about 1/3 of Texans live in an unattached single family dwelling. And some of those are not the new suburban sprawl housing (although much of it is). So just having a single family home is not modest, in any part of the country.

 

[DEFCOM5]

How do you know what they did or didn't realize? Why is the writer obligated to pander to your socio-economic concerns?

Can I not refer to a Kia Soul as a "small car" because in some parts of the world it isn't considered small?

And if they shake their heads it is because they are "clueless" about housing sizes in the US.

Yep. Blame the others because they do not understand that your frame of reference is the right one!

Sorry for being clueless. Thank you for screwing my head back on the right way!

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Sticking with Texas because I just looked up the stats, more than ten percent of all non-attached dwellings in the state are mobile homes. Excluding mobile homes, only about 1/3 of Texans live in an unattached single family dwelling. And some of those are not the new suburban sprawl housing (although much of it is). So just having a single family home is not modest, in any part of the country.

But that wasn't the frame of reference the author was using.
Your argument is like saying I can't call a 12 year old Nissan Altima a "modest car" because only a small fraction of the world's population even owns a car.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Yep. Blame the others because they do not understand that your frame of reference is the right one!

Sorry for being clueless. Thank you for screwing my head back on the right way!

You're welcome. Glad I could help. Everyone gets a little off track sometimes.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

If we are worried about "people outside North America" if we call Mississippi a "poor state" do we need to point out they are richer than France and the UK?
Since we are worried about privilege and all.

 

[DEFCOM5]

You're welcome. Glad I could help. Everyone gets a little off track sometimes.

 

[iwatchus]

But that wasn't the frame of reference the author was using.
Your argument is like saying I can't call a 12 year old Nissan Altima a "modest car" because only a small fraction of the world's population even owns a car.

No. I am limiting my discussion to Texas, where the vast majority of the adult population does in fact own a car and a 12 year old Altima is below the median vehicle.

I will pick modest as below the median (could be interpreted as below 40th percentile or some other arbitary point. Owningyour own modern single family car is about as common as owning a recent model year (last 5 years) personal vehicle that retails now for over 50K. (Most of which are pick up trucks.)

 

[Kelliezgirl]

 

[Kelliezgirl]

No. I am limiting my discussion to Texas, where the vast majority of the adult population does in fact own a car and a 12 year old Altima is below the median vehicle.

I will pick modest as below the median (could be interpreted as below 40th percentile or some other arbitary point. Owningyour own modern single family car is about as common as owning a recent model year (last 5 years) personal vehicle that retails now for over 50K. (Most of which are pick up trucks.)

The point of the reference in the story was a modest sized home. In common usage that wouldn't include a mobile home.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

 

[NuclearFairy]

For crying out loud...

Doesn't matter what the average, or modest home in one area or another is. It would still be best to not give a square footage, because that'll have people tripping up trying to figure out if it's accurate or not.

For instance, in my story Lunacy on Set, I described the couple as middle class and comfortable. And even though I resisted all temptation to list their income or square footage of the house. I still worried that I gave them too big of a house for believable middle class. Even though I've known a handful of middle class people with children (Which this couple does not have) to own a three bedroom, two story house with a basement in the woods.

So yeah, don't list the square footage unless it's plot relevant because it will trip people up.

More likely to trip people up than a 24 inch cock even.

 

[Erozetta]

That all depends on what part of the country you live in.
You will not find a house in the Southern US built by a major builder in the last 30 years that is smaller than 1500 square feet. As I mentioned previously, the economics of building it don't make sense these days.
So sure, if you want to talk 70 year old houses built in the 50s, you are onto something. That isn't the reality for a large portion of the country.
And again, we are talking starter homes in areas that are not considered wealthy.

It also depends on your view and experience with modest living. If you're accustomed to houses of 1000sq ft+, 1800 sq ft might seem modest. But if you're accustomed to houses in the 6-900 sq ft range, modest is going to feel different to you and anyone who sees it differently is going to seem out of touch with what modest housing actually means.

Houses built in the last 20-25 years or new construction already rule out the idea of a modest house. That's upper middle class to lower high class housing, which isn't modest housing even if it's the smallest in the neighborhood.

I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio and Bumfuck, Alabama and currently live in an extremely wealthy city in Massachusetts. There are modest houses here as there were in the places I grew up. They are just becoming more and more rare.

 

[Erozetta]

I don't anymore, and we are talking new build stats. So "manufactured housing" isn't included in that.
If you are talking about mobile homes, I think "modest" is kind of baked in.

Except it's not. There are some massive and extremely expensive mobile homes available that are definitely not modest.

 

[dirk2024]

Can we please unhijack this thread?

 

[Erozetta]

Can we please unhijack this thread?

*Puts gun away* fine.