You can be replaced

[twelveoone]

look up Ray Kurzweilhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Kurzweil
in the US patent office ( USPTO)
series of patents on poetry generators, poet personalities, I had almost forgotten about him, was looking at something in the bottom links on this page
http://www.textetc.com/traditional/sound.html
in regards to how the word sounds are processed in the brain, and how they add to meaning
and well one link leads to another

 

[butters]

went into your second link, twelvio - made for fascinating reading. i think i recognise some of the ways sound's employed in my own writing, though it wasn't a thing i'd studied - would appear to hark back to the comments in the article about the way certain sound elements are perceived by the human species in a general way, despite language differences. the secret life of sounds.

this phrase resonates for me: "The texture of sound"

and now i want to go read carol ann duffy's The Grammar of Light

The way the shy stars go stuttering on…
Slurs its soft wax, flatters.
(4. Carol Ann Duffy. The Grammar of Light.)

the use of sound here is, imo, wonderful


thankyou for this thread!

 

[Tzara]

look up Ray Kurzweilhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Kurzweil
in the US patent office ( USPTO)
series of patents on poetry generators, poet personalities, I had almost forgotten about him, was looking at something in the bottom links on this page
http://www.textetc.com/traditional/sound.html
in regards to how the word sounds are processed in the brain, and how they add to meaning
and well one link leads to another

Worse than being replaced is that we aren't really here in the first place: the simulation argument.

 

[Maria2394]

Worse than being replaced is that we aren't really here in the first place: the simulation argument.

ahh, so you subscribe to the theory that we are only beings in some greater beings' mind? That stuff confuses the bejeezes outta me, lol. I don't know for sure if I am here or not

 

[bogusagain]

It replaces in a modernist way of the material and form being the message and by ignoring the validity of experience. It is experience that makes us human, not the means of communication.

 

[Tzara]

ahh, so you subscribe to the theory that we are only beings in some greater beings' mind? That stuff confuses the bejeezes outta me, lol. I don't know for sure if I am here or not

No, I don't. I think either of Bostrom's first two postulates, that either the human species is very likely to go extinct before reaching a “posthuman” stage or that any posthuman civilization is extremely unlikely to run a significant number of simulations of their evolutionary history (or variations thereof) are more likely true. But that's an uniformed (thats "un-informed," not uniformed ) guess on my part.

But if we are a simulation, what does it matter? We (or maybe just I) still feel and experience what we/I feel and experience. It's the feeling and experience (and the consciousness of that) that are important, not that I am some physical being.

If I am a computer simulation, I have a pretty happy life. If the "real" reality is that I am living a dream and am simply a power source for some Matrix-like civilization, I'm not sure I care, unless I figure that out somehow.

 

[Tzara]

It replaces in a modernist way of the material and form being the message and by ignoring the validity of experience. It is experience that makes us human, not the means of communication.

What I think I said, I think.

I think.

It is experience that makes us, whether we are really human or not, what we are.




And at some point, dammit, I'd like to share a beer with you. Whether you are real or not.

 

[twelveoone]

Worse than being replaced is that we aren't really here in the first place: the simulation argument.

This is the way the world ends
not with a bang
but a white sale

 

[darkmaas]

::

Post removed for impoliteness unbecoming to a Canadian.

::

 

[Maria2394]

No, I don't. I think either of Bostrom's first two postulates, that either the human species is very likely to go extinct before reaching a “posthuman” stage or that any posthuman civilization is extremely unlikely to run a significant number of simulations of their evolutionary history (or variations thereof) are more likely true. But that's an uniformed (thats "un-informed," not uniformed ) guess on my part.

But if we are a simulation, what does it matter? We (or maybe just I) still feel and experience what we/I feel and experience. It's the feeling and experience (and the consciousness of that) that are important, not that I am some physical being.

If I am a computer simulation, I have a pretty happy life. If the "real" reality is that I am living a dream and am simply a power source for some Matrix-like civilization, I'm not sure I care, unless I figure that out somehow.

HI Tzara!

I have to agree with you. If I am a simulation, what the heck, I can deal with that. Take care

 

[Tzara]

::

Post removed for impoliteness unbecoming to a Canadian.

::

Opinion is impolite in Canada?

I suppose it might be. You are a different country.





Sorry. Just being American. That is to say: pushy, badly dressed, loud, opinionated, often wrong about matters of general world concern, fashion-wise, kind of dorky.

Why you northerners probably don't often venture south of the 49th parallel.

Out west, anyway. I think you personally skate a bit north of the 44th, like you're flirting with Americana. Or something like that.

 

[twelveoone]

“Let’s hear it,” said Humpty Dumpty. “I can 
explain all the poems that ever were invented—and 
a good many that haven’t been invented just yet.”
*—Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

In 1945, John Ashbery discovered *th*e work of an obscure Au*stralian poet named Ern Malley. “I liked the poems very much,” Ashbery recalls. “They reminded me a little of my own early tortured experiments in surrealism, but they wer*e much better.”
Ern Malley
interesting mag, BTW

Ern Malley

 

[twelveoone]

went into your second link, twelvio - made for fascinating reading. i think i recognise some of the ways sound's employed in my own writing, though it wasn't a thing i'd studied - would appear to hark back to the comments in the article about the way certain sound elements are perceived by the human species in a general way, despite language differences. the secret life of sounds.

this phrase resonates for me: "The texture of sound"

and now i want to go read carol ann duffy's The Grammar of Light



the use of sound here is, imo, wonderful


thankyou for this thread!

one of the benefits of actually reading and thinking about the problem of poetry, no, not the Billy Collins way.

And seriously I am amazed at what some here come up with. Regarding vowel sounds, reading Angeline and bflagsst started me down that rabbitt hole.

 

[bogusagain]

I've come to the conclusion I need replacing.

 

[Angeline]

one of the benefits of actually reading and thinking about the problem of poetry, no, not the Billy Collins way.

And seriously I am amazed at what some here come up with. Regarding vowel sounds, reading Angeline and bflagsst started me down that rabbitt hole.

I recall us talking about sounds (and word placements) in poetry a year or so back, when I was telling you what I was reading about in The Art of the Poetic Line by James Longenbach. Sound right?

Also, do you recall years ago when we did the poet interview threads? (Well, you did them.) Maybe people would be interested in starting that up again. I, for one, would be very interested in hearing Tristesse's (for one very good example) ideas about poetry: why she likes who she likes, how their influences affect her poems, why she chooses to write on the themes or subjects that she does, what she's trying to achieve, etc.

 

[twelveoone]

I recall us talking about sounds (and word placements) in poetry a year or so back, when I was telling you what I was reading about in The Art of the Poetic Line by James Longenbach. Sound right?

Also, do you recall years ago when we did the poet interview threads? (Well, you did them.) Maybe people would be interested in starting that up again. I, for one, would be very interested in hearing Tristesse's (for one very good example) ideas about poetry: why she likes who she likes, how their influences affect her poems, why she chooses to write on the themes or subjects that she does, what she's trying to achieve, etc.

Excellent idea! That makes three votes.

The Art of the Poetic Line by James Longenbach. Sound right?
yes, I was looking for it

 

[Angeline]

Excellent idea! That makes three votes.

The Art of the Poetic Line by James Longenbach. Sound right?
yes, I was looking for it

Yes, it's a very interesting book. For one thing, I had a much better understanding of and (therefore) greater respect for William Carlos Williams' poems after I read it. There's fascinating explication about sonics and word order and line breaks in it.

You know years back (like 2003 or so) someone (Eve or maybe karmadog) did an interview thread with smithpeter. It was a great thread not only because he was a really interesting poet, but also because anyone could ask him anything in the thread, It got lots of people participating and thinking. Lots of fun and silly stuff but also lots to learn and consider. And smithpeter chose to respond if and how he wanted (some of the questions didn't exactly called for measured responses, if you get my drift). Might be a fun way to go about it now. Assuming that the poet in question agrees to be interviewed, that is.

 

[twelveoone]

Yes, it's a very interesting book. For one thing, I had a much better understanding of and (therefore) greater respect for William Carlos Williams' poems after I read it. There's fascinating explication about sonics and word order and line breaks in it.

You know years back (like 2003 or so) someone (Eve or maybe karmadog) did an interview thread with smithpeter. It was a great thread not only because he was a really interesting poet, but also because anyone could ask him anything in the thread, It got lots of people participating and thinking. Lots of fun and silly stuff but also lots to learn and consider. And smithpeter chose to respond if and how he wanted (some of the questions didn't exactly called for measured responses, if you get my drift). Might be a fun way to go about it now. Assuming that the poet in question agrees to be interviewed, that is.

Go for it! My experience with Interact are half the poets are clams, jd4george was probably the most informative, and down to earth, a shame i never got around to rybka.
One of the problems, is a huge part of writing is not conscious, Eve one of my faves really couldn't talk about her work, (da trance, da trance) and she did things with words I never saw anyone else match.
Tess would be interesting, scary thing, she uses tactics that are similar to mine, but is a much more linear writer. I can almost see the "processing".

 

[darkmaas]

This is the way the world ends
not with a bang
but a white sale

I would like to return to the original discussion and this witty snippet.

If one were to design a poetry generator, what would one do? Seems to me that you face two problems. First of all you need to answer the question "What is poetry?" Good luck on that one. Then you need an algorithm to actually create whatever you arrived at in your response to problem 1. Problem 2 is manageable imho, but Problem 1 is intractable. Ergo, no poetry generator.

What I think we are actually faced with is creating an ersatz poetry generator. This is an easier task because it only requires the creation of something resembling poetry. One easy algorithm would be to take a line of existing poetry and add a bit of non-sense (poetic license?) and as long as the starting point was well known ... everyone would recognize "poemishness" and conclude ... "Ah poetry."

::

I believe 1201 has built an ersatz poetry generator. He takes the two most famous lines of 20th century poetry (except perhaps Mr. Frost's "Good fences"), adds a white sale reference and drops it haphazardly into an otherwise rather interesting existential discussion and ... magic. Interesting discussion stops. (Probably a good thing because it was drifting off topic into areas that might require actual effort to process and more than a quick google to contribute.)

But here's a thought. If one were to build a simulator, would one need real (rather than the above ersatz) poetry? Again we trip up on problem 1. If we can't define it, can we simulate it? If not, how do we add it to our simulacron?

Just asking...

::

 

[HarryHill]

Kurzweil was/is a pioneer in the field of speech recognition. First heard of him in the very early '80's from my computer science teacher. (who bought stock in his enterprises and advised us to also...hindsight) Everytime you interface with a computer voice, he is directly responsible..

The question for machine generated poetry lies not in its creation, but in the format in which it is displayed

 

[bogusagain]

But here's a thought. If one were to build a simulator, would one need real (rather than the above ersatz) poetry? Again we trip up on problem 1. If we can't define it, can we simulate it? If not, how do we add it to our simulacron?

Just asking...

::

How much of the poetry does the reader create? It is the reader who brings the experience.

Religious poetry means nothing to me because I don't have a religious bone in my body, it moves me not, I'm indifferent. I don't recognise the hand of god but I recognise a human invention called god so while I might recognize quality in the formal qualities of the poetry, I will remain indifferent to the supposed experience of the poet (or machine).

 

[darkmaas]

How much of the poetry does the reader create? It is the reader who brings the experience.

Religious poetry means nothing to me because I don't have a religious bone in my body, it moves me not, I'm indifferent. I don't recognise the hand of god but I recognise a human invention called god so while I might recognize quality in the formal qualities of the poetry, I will remain indifferent to the supposed experience of the poet (or machine).

OOh. Good point. I feel a bit lame for not including it.

I was treating the reader as the discriminating part of the simulation, able to recognize quality, but in fact there simply has to be a "balance/understanding" between the simulated reader and the simulated poet on what "poem" means.

Another cute theory crashes and burns in a simulated forest.

::

 

[darkmaas]

HarryHill:

The question for machine generated poetry lies not in its creation, but in the format in which it is displayed

Do you actually mean that? I'm missing something.

::

 

[Tzara]

How much of the poetry does the reader create? It is the reader who brings the experience.

Religious poetry means nothing to me because I don't have a religious bone in my body, it moves me not, I'm indifferent. I don't recognise the hand of god but I recognise a human invention called god so while I might recognize quality in the formal qualities of the poetry, I will remain indifferent to the supposed experience of the poet (or machine).

I'm not sure I disagree with you as regards to poetry, bogus, but I think the same argument applies to visual art, and I have to say, though I am personally agnostic, tending atheist, that I can be very moved by paintings inspired by or depicting religious iconography.

And I can actually say the same about poetry. One of my favorite poets, Mary Karr, is a kind of eccentric, though devout, Christian. That I do not share her belief is given. That I do understand her art, and her personal agonies or concerns, is perhaps a bit shaky, but she is so damn sincere and, what is more important, communicative about her feelings/consciousness/philosophy that I relate to what she feels/believes.

I think part of being human, part of being an artist, for that matter, is relating to others who do not share your beliefs and opinions. It's entering, however weakly, however stumblingly, an exchange where you try to be you and yet try to at the same time enter in to being someone else.

I know. Gibberish. And I was a science major. Pardon.

 

[bogusagain]

I'm not sure I disagree with you as regards to poetry, bogus, but I think the same argument applies to visual art, and I have to say, though I am personally agnostic, tending atheist, that I can be very moved by paintings inspired by or depicting religious iconography.

And I can actually say the same about poetry. One of my favorite poets, Mary Karr, is a kind of eccentric, though devout, Christian. That I do not share her belief is given. That I do understand her art, and her personal agonies or concerns, is perhaps a bit shaky, but she is so damn sincere and, what is more important, communicative about her feelings/consciousness/philosophy that I relate to what she feels/believes.

I think part of being human, part of being an artist, for that matter, is relating to others who do not share your beliefs and opinions. It's entering, however weakly, however stumblingly, an exchange where you try to be you and yet try to at the same time enter in to being someone else.

I know. Gibberish. And I was a science major. Pardon.

I can see your point and when I posted my comment I was wondering if I should delete it but after some internal debate and with the aid of a whisky, I decided to be published and be damned.

I have to admit, although I'm an artist of questionable quality, even though I earn enough to buy my own whisky, religious iconography tends to get in the way of my enjoyment of religious visual art. Well, that is not entirely true, I can enjoy religious iconography from another culture because then, I find my ignorance is a virtue i.e I can enjoy the formal qualities without the message intruding.

Now I have written that, I have just thought of a religious piece of art which I have seen and which I found stunning, Grunewald's Isenheim Altarpiece. The technicolor epic of its day. No doubt there will be more if the goldfish swims back to the front of my brain again.

The problem with these sort of discussions, one needs to write a thesis to fill in the evidence and provisos etc. but you know that anyway Tzara.