Yes, Obama's stimulus package saved the economy

[BotanyBoy]

There is a widespread Republican fantasy that if the welfare checks stopped coming welfare recipients would get jobs and join the middle class.

I didn't say anything of the sort or even suggest it.

I said the welfare keeps the slaves from rioting firing EVERY mother fucker in DC.

And they might get jobs and join the middle class if republicans and dems alike would quit 'regulating' everyone not a billionaire out of the opportunity to make their own living.

Sorry. The middle class is no longer taking applications. Few people enter the middle class any more. Large numbers are falling into the proletariat. This happened under George W. Bush. It is happening under Barack Obama.

Yep....because there is little to no difference between the two when it comes to making jobs happen in this country.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Your obsession with regulations is cute.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Your obsession with regulations is cute.

Why? Because it tickles your libhurhl fancy to just arbitrarily destroy small independent business owners for mega corp?

You belong in LA....

 

[Sean Renaud]

Oh I love LA and only tolerate you NorCal folks until we permanently deal with Texas. At which point we're allying with the New Yorkers.

However we can look back at history and see that while you make a strong case that regulations aren't helping anything they sure as fuck aren't the biggest part of the problem. If they were we wouldn't be hitting the exact same problems as we did at the beginning of the industrial revolution or again during the Great Depression. If regulations were the heart of the problem we'd be hitting entirely new scenarios not the same old same old.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Oh I love LA and only tolerate you NorCal folks until we permanently deal with Texas. At which point we're allying with the New Yorkers.

Oh I wish you guys would let us go......most of us up here want SO badly for that. In fact we (north cal) has tried, far harder than you guys. You will put up with our shit forever and like it.

Because....
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You simply don't get to exist without us. Certainly not for the cheap cheap prices you have been lol. Let us go and LA would get really fucking expensive.

However we can look back at history and see that while you make a strong case that regulations aren't helping anything they sure as fuck aren't the biggest part of the problem.

I never said regulations aren't helping anything or they can't.

And they sure the fuck are one of the largest problems as of late.

Because what I AM saying is a lot of the regulations we have right now are fucked up....I mean FUCKED up. Outright hostile to the idea of the poor being allowed anything other than 10/hr wage slave.

The 1% absolutely could not be as rich as they are as fast as they got there without the help of the US government and it's 'regulations'. Yes that means democrats too...

From unfair barriers to market entry all the way to making it impossible for Americans to compete with 3rd world slave labor a LOT of the problems we have are only possible because "regulation" has been put in place to make it possible. And none of it has to do with safety, the environment or stopping monopolies, all these 'regulations' are is power/money grabs. The Koch's, Waltons, Monsanto all these big uber evil empires only get to run around fucking everyone in the ass the way they do is because 'regulations' give them the legal frame work to run around crushing everyone with total impunity. Regulation can be good but we have been doing it WRONG.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Oh, I know we get water from you and you get money from us. Let's not pretend that isn't mutual (if benefiting us far more than you). Besides sooner or later some brilliant bastard will figure out how to desalinate water at a reasonable price. Perhaps after we've dealt with Texas.

For the record I didn't say that regulations were helping, I do think they could. How often they DO in practice is debatable at best. I'm merely finding it amusing that it's your go to.

The 1% got there several times without any real help from the government. So yes they've done it before and they'll it again. The only possible check against big business is a big semi-hostile government. We don't have one of those.

And yes plenty of the regulations DO have to do with safety. I can't remember the last time dozens of Americans died in a sweat shop. We don't even fuck over illegal immigrants like THAT. My sky isn't the color of ash so I know we're doing things that China isn't environmentally.

The big guys ARE winning.
The big guys ARE manipulating the laws to keep winning. This comes in various degrees and levels of intent. Online gambling is illegal mostly because Vegas said so. Which is why NOW they're setting their sights on Fantasy Football.
The big guys also know how to play the game as we've seen recently with some oil disasters. Apparently Big Oil ain't responsible because non of their employees were on site. The Contracting company isn't responsible because they contract out, the contractors aren't responsible because it's not their equipment or some equally convoluted crap.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Oh I wish you guys would let us go......most of us up here want SO badly for that. In fact we (north cal) has tried, far harder than you guys. You will put up with our shit forever and like it.

If NoCal and SoCal were two states, what practical difference would it make? You'd still be sending your water to LA.

 

[JackLuis]

If NoCal and SoCal were two states, what practical difference would it make? You'd still be sending your water to LA.

Not if they legalize MJ. LA couldn't afford to compete with the revenue we'd get for sensmilla. LA would be a wasted desert, again.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Oh, I know we get water from you and you get money from us. Let's not pretend that isn't mutual (if benefiting us far more than you). Besides sooner or later some brilliant bastard will figure out how to desalinate water at a reasonable price. Perhaps after we've dealt with Texas.

Yea...better figure that de-sal out first lol.

For the record I didn't say that regulations were helping, I do think they could. How often they DO in practice is debatable at best. I'm merely finding it amusing that it's your go to.

Hmm....I don't get it but ok. Maybe it's the alphabet agency butt fucking I got this year.

The 1% got there several times without any real help from the government. So yes they've done it before and they'll it again. The only possible check against big business is a big semi-hostile government. We don't have one of those.

And yes plenty of the regulations DO have to do with safety. .

I understand but the government shouldn't be hostile to Joe and Sue M'uricuh.....they should be hostile to the 1%'s and their multinational, above the law, evil empires and they need to start making distinctions between those fuckers and average joe just trying to something other than min wage.

Or the beatings will continue until morale has improved.

If NoCal and SoCal were two states, what practical difference would it make? You'd still be sending your water to LA.

Not without a mega bux we wouldn't.

 

[Sean Renaud]

We could always just never destroy Texas. As long as they are the enemy we can be friends!

By your go-to I mean it seems like that is your first, last and only gripe. It being accurate or not is beside the point, it's just the answer you're gonna use. Just like if Arnold leaves the room I'm not listening to him. "He'll be back."

We are in agreement on how the government should keep them in check and also that they don't. I still think Ma and Pa have to be taken on a case by case basis but that doesn't change the crux that when in doubt the government should find ways to work WITH the little guy.

In fairness you guys are WAY more liberal than we are. You're more likely to give us water out of the kindness of your hearts than we are to give you food out of the evil of ours.

 

[NeverEndingMe]

The welfare system preserves those who would otherwise die from hunger and disease.

that's bullshit ...

 

[NeverEndingMe]

There is a widespread Republican fantasy that if the welfare checks stopped coming welfare recipients would get jobs and join the middle class.

Sorry. The middle class is no longer taking applications. Few people enter the middle class any more. Large numbers are falling into the proletariat. This happened under George W. Bush. It is happening under Barack Obama.

yeah, and your obama drove the economy into the crapper

obama loves him some slaves

 

[BotanyBoy]

We could always just never destroy Texas. As long as they are the enemy we can be friends!

By your go-to I mean it seems like that is your first, last and only gripe. It being accurate or not is beside the point, it's just the answer you're gonna use. Just like if Arnold leaves the room I'm not listening to him. "He'll be back."

We are in agreement on how the government should keep them in check and also that they don't. I still think Ma and Pa have to be taken on a case by case basis but that doesn't change the crux that when in doubt the government should find ways to work WITH the little guy.

In fairness you guys are WAY more liberal than we are. You're more likely to give us water out of the kindness of your hearts than we are to give you food out of the evil of ours.

California and it's agricultural laws are about 600 sorts of fucked up and corrupt to the fuckin' core. I'm sure other industries are less trashy and others worse...but all my business problems share a common denominator. Some cheese dick from teh state of california fucking with me just because they can.....so it really is my only gripe. Because otherwise my life is pretty fuckin' sweet.

 

[KingOrfeo]

California and it's agricultural laws are about 600 sorts of fucked up and corrupt to the fuckin' core. I'm sure other industries are less trashy and others worse...but all my business problems share a common denominator. Some cheese dick from teh state of california fucking with me just because they can.....so it really is my only gripe. Because otherwise my life is pretty fuckin' sweet.

[shrug] So do something about it. Stop bitching -- or, rather, start bitching in venues where bitching might make a difference -- and do something. Write your state legislators. Vote. Run for office -- even if you lose, you'll draw attention to your agenda. Organize California's small farmers into a union/lobby for ag-law reform. Write letters to the editor, they'll at least get more exposure than your posts here. You got anything better to do when you're not hoeing the field?

 

[Sean Renaud]

California and it's agricultural laws are about 600 sorts of fucked up and corrupt to the fuckin' core. I'm sure other industries are less trashy and others worse...but all my business problems share a common denominator. Some cheese dick from teh state of california fucking with me just because they can.....so it really is my only gripe. Because otherwise my life is pretty fuckin' sweet.

And I know shit all about agriculture other than apparently despite them throwing up obstacles you still outperform damn near everybody. Because AWESOME. For me they MOSTLY leave me alone. Sure someone from the DOJ and FBI drop by randomly to make sure I have everything up to code and all my licenses which cost a few hundred bucks and then I go on about my business.

I don't deny that they do jump all over your dick. My argument comes down to a few points.

1. I know nothing about agriculture
1a. I find it rare that the government does something for no reason. They are ultimately still people and would rather do nothing than do something if they get paid the same amount. And will halfass what they can for essentially the same reasons.
1b. A lot of fees and fines are to pay people to do very necessary things. A lot of fees and fines are JUST to bring in money for the state when they can't find a way to justify raising taxes. In relationship to this:

I like you just fine, I however don't trust you to be objective about something that effects you. I assume the state would have to dump a HUGE sum of money on your head before you'd say: Nope this is stupid. You're human, so I assume if Grey Davis decided that you deserve 2k a year because the plants you grow prevent erosion and provide a habitat for the Hypnotoad your response would be closer to "That's correct, I save the world" than "Fuck you big government!" And on the flip side even if every one of your neighbors had personally burned down 100 acres by getting local coyotes high and forgetting to put out the fires properly you'd still be pissed about the "don't smoke with small dogs rule" because you're responsible!

Which leads me to my final point about specific laws being important. I'd happily sit down with a bunch of people and go law by law (or at least bunches we both know there are still laws from 1870 about what to do if you find an escaped slave working a farm) and say these are stupid they must go.

 

[lovecraft68]

Please let us know which of the current crop of candidates is promising to do anything at all about any of those issues.

Please let me know what the current crop of candidates has to do with all the facts she just presented? Nothing of course, but that's what obama and his boot licks do, they try to blame someone else.

 

[lovecraft68]

The welfare system preserves those who would otherwise die from hunger and disease.

That was the original intent of it years ago when being on welfare was something people were ashamed of.

Now its a free handout and people brag about their EBT cards and Obama phones. Welfare is hand outs not hand ups anymore

But its what this president wants, people to be dependent on the state.

 

[BotanyBoy]

[shrug] So do something about it. Stop bitching -- or, rather, start bitching where bitching might make a difference -- and do something. Vote. Run for office. Organize California's small farmers into a union/lobby for ag-law reform. Write letters to the editor, they'll at least get more exposure than your posts here. You got anything better to do when you're not hoeing the field?

My vote matters not, Democrat gets it because zip code. Which is better than living where R wins because uber insano super majority, but it still carries the no point in voting effect for me.

Me for office? LMFAO!!!! Yea...if I had the money that would be some funny shit.

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Also I'm just not rich enough to battle Monsanto for Sacramento....don't feel like spending my time pissing in my own face like that, too many good video games to play.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Which leads me to my final point about specific laws being important. I'd happily sit down with a bunch of people and go law by law (or at least bunches we both know there are still laws from 1870 about what to do if you find an escaped slave working a farm) and say these are stupid they must go.

You can find archaic, half-forgotten laws, laws made for a different time, in town ordinance codes, perhaps. But at the state level, every state's legislatures and lawyers are constantly at work refining the statutes, sitting on revision committees, etc. Not much in a state law code that is glaringly stupid will escape notice for many years. If anything is in there that you don't like, it's not because it's stupid, it's because somebody or some group of somebodies with more clout than you does like it. (And they might be stupid to like it, but that's another discussion.)

 

[KingOrfeo]

My vote matters not, Democrat gets it because zip code.

So become a FairVote activist and try to change that.

 

[BotanyBoy]

And I know shit all about agriculture other than apparently despite them throwing up obstacles you still outperform damn near everybody. Because AWESOME. For me they MOSTLY leave me alone. Sure someone from the DOJ and FBI drop by randomly to make sure I have everything up to code and all my licenses which cost a few hundred bucks and then I go on about my business.

I don't deny that they do jump all over your dick. My argument comes down to a few points.

1. I know nothing about agriculture
1a. I find it rare that the government does something for no reason. They are ultimately still people and would rather do nothing than do something if they get paid the same amount. And will halfass what they can for essentially the same reasons.
1b. A lot of fees and fines are to pay people to do very necessary things. A lot of fees and fines are JUST to bring in money for the state when they can't find a way to justify raising taxes. In relationship to this:

I like you just fine, I however don't trust you to be objective about something that effects you. I assume the state would have to dump a HUGE sum of money on your head before you'd say: Nope this is stupid. You're human, so I assume if Grey Davis decided that you deserve 2k a year because the plants you grow prevent erosion and provide a habitat for the Hypnotoad your response would be closer to "That's correct, I save the world" than "Fuck you big government!" And on the flip side even if every one of your neighbors had personally burned down 100 acres by getting local coyotes high and forgetting to put out the fires properly you'd still be pissed about the "don't smoke with small dogs rule" because you're responsible!

Which leads me to my final point about specific laws being important. I'd happily sit down with a bunch of people and go law by law (or at least bunches we both know there are still laws from 1870 about what to do if you find an escaped slave working a farm) and say these are stupid they must go.

It's my fault...consumables are regulation heavy because people eat them shitz. And there is a good bit of it I totally get and don't mind. Like I said I don't mind being inspected...shit's tip top. But dont' charge me to send redundant extras, that's just asshole mother fucker status.
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If I grew ornamental nursery stock I'd not be getting fucked with anything close to the way I am now. That being said it's easier to sell food than it is pretty shit. Especially when things get tight for everyone.

But I'm working on establishing that market...love Bonsai with a passion and I got a lot of cool conifers that will hopefully be worth a grip in about 5 years. Low volume, high profit exotics, perfect for retirement

You're right it's 1st world problems...because seriously I'm looking at retiring on the north cost at about 40 ish years old doing bonsai to stay busy and pay for a sweet ass vay cay every winter. I've been to enough shit holes on this planet to know I'm living teh dream....so on a grand scale no bitch. But as far as 1st world problems go...it's my favorite to cry about right next to shitty satellite reception in the sticks and the god damn deer eating my roses. I'm gonna eat that mother fucker....

 

[BotanyBoy]

So become a FairVote activist and try to change that.

Nah...no point. If I'm ever wealthy enough to make a difference I'll just do the same thing everyone else does and hire a congress critter to go and get me some that cream LOL

 

[Sean Renaud]

First world problems are still problems. If for no other reason than if you had an extra 3k that wasn't spent on inspectors you might spend four bucks a month feedin Somali kids.

I think you and your fellow farmers should get together and make a list of all the redundent crap and see what you can get done. I know I do hate that or did when the FBI and DOJ did stupid shit, eventually the DOJ said fuck it and now they only come when the local FBI guy doesn't want to and he wants to because he gets to leave the office. Everybody is happy. STill consolidation is AWESOME!

 

[BotanyBoy]

First world problems are still problems. If for no other reason than if you had an extra 3k that wasn't spent on inspectors you might spend four bucks a month feedin Somali kids.

I think you and your fellow farmers should get together and make a list of all the redundent crap and see what you can get done. I know I do hate that or did when the FBI and DOJ did stupid shit, eventually the DOJ said fuck it and now they only come when the local FBI guy doesn't want to and he wants to because he gets to leave the office. Everybody is happy. STill consolidation is AWESOME!

I'd save the rain forests just because I like trees more than most people. I already send poor critters money. Maybe I should send some poor 3rd world fucks some bandaids and a 'hang in there' card or some shit.

It's already in the works...but the fight between independent farmers and mega agg is slow. But the public is showing lots of support at farmers markets in recent times and that's the best thing we have going for us.

I can't prove shit but my conspiracy theory brain says big agg likes to use these agencies to point blank harass small farmers. Because EvilCorp.

Or maybe it's just because CA is freaking the fuck out about water because srsbznz drought bullshit. *shrug*

 

[Sean Renaud]

I meant the generic you. I know I'm a lot more generous when I've got extra money that doesn't seem to have anything good to do with it.

Yeah, Farmer's Markets are blowing up, my fear is that you can't maintain it for but so long. That eventually the people who go there for quality will stop when one of you FINALLY breaks through and opens something similar to a Fresh n Easy, hell I'm amazed they don't eat your breakfast.

Big Business almost definitely uses them to harass you when it's an effective tool. I don't deny that for a heart beat.