Yay capitalism

[Le Jacquelope]

So we've been protecting crops from bugs and now we're facing the risk of having no crops to protect.

All so a corporation could maximize its profits.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/2...4&printer=1;_ylt=An5quJWw8bx2SBDS4flEsRhdRJ54

Germans probing whether Bayer pesticide caused honeybee colony collapse

By Sabine Vollmer, Raleigh News & ObserverTue Aug 26, 2:28 PM ET

RALEIGH, N.C. — Bayer CropScience is facing scrutiny because of the effect one of its best-selling pesticides has had on honeybees

A German prosecutor is investigating Werner Wenning , Bayer's chairman, and Friedrich Berschauer , the head of Bayer CropScience , after critics alleged that they knowingly polluted the environment.

The investigation was triggered by an Aug. 13 complaint filed by German beekeepers and consumer protection advocates, a Coalition against Bayer Dangers spokesman, Philipp Mimkes, said Monday.

The complaint is part of efforts by groups on both sides of the Atlantic to determine how much Bayer CropScience knows about the part that clothianidin may have played in the death of millions of honeybees.

Bayer CropScience , which has its U.S. headquarters in Research Triangle Park , said field studies have shown that bees' exposure to the pesticide is minimal or nonexistent if the chemical is used properly.

Clothianidin and related pesticides generated about $1 billion of Bayer CropScience's $8.6 billion in global sales last year. The coalition is demanding that the company withdraw all of the pesticides.

"We're suspecting that Bayer submitted flawed studies to play down the risks of pesticide residues in treated plants," said Harro Schultze , the coalition's attorney.

"Bayer's ... management has to be called to account, since the risks ... have now been known for more than 10 years."

Under German law, a criminal investigation could lead to a search of Bayer offices, Mimkes said.

On the other side of the Atlantic, the Natural Resources Defense Council is pressing for research information on clothianidin.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency approved the pesticide in 2003 under the condition that Bayer submit additional data. A lawsuit, which the environmental group filed Aug. 19 in federal court in Washington , accuses the EPA of hiding the honeybee data.

Read the full story at newsobserver.com.

More McClatchy Environment news

Species retreat to Yosemite's highlands

 

[DeeZire]

The rumored disappearance of honeybees is nothing but a left wing plot. It's a scam my friend. The bees aren't gone, it's just that they've been unionized by the evil liberals. The selfish bees are now taking en masse Personal Time, causing havoc in the honey industry. They're also causing problems in the pollination department, something we should be able to take for granted, like everything else provided to us by ol Ma Nature.

Come to think of it, pollination is also nothing but a left wing plot to protect bees. Pollination is completely unnecessary. All one needs is Faith. We need to set up a Prayer group to encourage Immaculate Pollination. If it was good enough for Jesus' mom, it's good enough for a goddamn plant, fer chrissakes!

DeeZire - the reborn faux conservative.

(addendum - honey if for hippies, so screw the damn honeybees. I'm sticking with refined white sugar! That's the American way, and I'm a Patriot, so all these fucked up liberal pinheads can go cry on someone else's shoulder.)

 

[oggbashan]

If the bees die, so do we.

They are essential for pollenation of almost every food crop there is.

Og

 

[rgraham666]

The biggest problem with capitalism these days is that the people who generally practice it aren't capitalists.

They resemble the Renaissance Popes. Who didn't give a damned about Catholicism or Christianity. It was just a position of power from which they could get even more.

 

[amicus]

These pesky left wing fleas and mosquito's like La Jackass, flit about sucking blood from living creatures, the only way they can survive, I guess. Like the Hyena, in nature, a scavenger of offal and rotting refuse, the lefties continue to suck life out of the living.

First of all, it ain't the free market system, jackass, it be the government of the various nations, representing the agricultural unions, who retain chemical companies to create and manufacture pesticides to solve a particular problem. They are usually partly driven by University research and guided by more blood sucking politicians to pork barrel their own regions, politics as usual, the scavengers of modern man.

Under the key words, bee population germany usa...I found the following:

From 1971 to 2006, there was a dramatic reduction in the number of feral (gone wild) honeybees in the US (now almost absent);[11] and a significant, though somewhat gradual decline in the number of colonies maintained by beekeepers. This decline includes the cumulative losses from all factors such as urbanization, pesticide use, tracheal and Varroa mites, and commercial beekeepers retiring and going out of business.

However, late in the year 2006 and in early 2007 the rate of attrition was alleged to have reached new proportions, and the term "Colony Collapse Disorder" was proposed to describe this sudden rash of disappearances.[1]

Limited occurrences resembling CCD have been documented as early as 1896,[5][12] and this set of symptoms has in the past several decades been given many different names (disappearing disease, spring dwindle, May disease, autumn collapse, and fall dwindle disease).[13] Most recently, a similar phenomenon in the winter of 2004/2005 occurred, and was attributed to Varroa mites (the "Vampire Mite" scare), though this was never ultimately confirmed. Nobody has been able to determine the cause of any past appearances of this syndrome. Upon recognition that the syndrome does not seem to be seasonally-restricted, and that it may not be a "disease" in the standard sense — that there may not be a specific causative agent — the syndrome was renamed.[14]


One of the more common general hypotheses concerns pesticides (or, more specifically, insecticides), though several studies have found no common environmental factors between unrelated outbreaks studied.

~~~

I don't spend a lot of time, energy or effort in swatting the mosquito like Jackasses of the forum, but an occasional reminder that everything this , market place and this one was so easy to refute and rebut.

Of course, the 'usual suspects', hop on the bandwagon of the anti industrial left without any research or thought at all, just adding to the clamour of the disenfranchised bohemians who have nothing better to do.

chuckles...


Amicus....

 

[gauchecritic]

I'd just like to point out that Hyena, far from being scavengers are a very successful pack animal that hunt and bring down their own food. If a single Lion spots a kill they scare away the pack and scavenge the still warm carcass.

It seems to me that observing reclamation by Hyena was a matter of not giving or noting the full data.

 

[amicus]

[

QUOTE=gauchecritic;28484210]I'd just like to point out that Hyena, far from being scavengers are a very successful pack animal that hunt and bring down their own food. If a single Lion spots a kill they scare away the pack and scavenge the still warm carcass.

It seems to me that observing reclamation by Hyena was a matter of not giving or noting the full data.

[/QUOTE]

~~~

It seems, Gauche, that you will go to any limits, even to posting false information just to refute a minor point of mine.

"...The Striped Hyena (Hyaena hyaena) Al Dabea' الضبع Taras तरस is a omnivorous mammal of the family Hyaenidae. It lives in Africa, the Middle East, Pakistan and western India. It is extinct in Europe, but can occasionally be spotted in Anatolia, Turkey. Striped Hyenas are largely scavengers...

The striped hyena is generally considered solitary... It forages individually and is rarely seen in groups. It does, however, associate in small family groups at the den....."

I don't have much of an interest in scavengers in general or Hyena's in specific and I fully confess my impression of the critters came from Jean Auels portrayal of them in her books, namely, Valley of the Horses.

It seems she is correct after all, as am I.

I take it you don't like the collective left being described as scavengers? If the shoe fits....ahem...

Amicus the Radical Capitalist

 

[gauchecritic]

~~~

It seems, Gauche, that you will go to any limits, even to posting false information just to refute a minor point of mine.




I don't have much of an interest in scavengers in general or Hyena's in specific and I fully confess my impression of the critters came from Jean Auels portrayal of them in her books, namely, Valley of the Horses.

It seems she is correct after all, as am I.

I take it you don't like the collective left being described as scavengers? If the shoe fits....ahem...

Amicus the Radical Capitalist

But you didn't say Striped Hyenas did you? You said "Hyenas" like when you say "The Left".

and I refute your claiming my information to be false. It was true inasmuch as it referred to Hyenas in general.

Minor points, are still points, I already won all the major ones, as well you know.

 

[amicus]

[

QUOTE=gauchecritic;28484559]But you didn't say Striped Hyenas did you? You said "Hyenas" like when you say "The Left".

and I refute your claiming my information to be false. It was true inasmuch as it referred to Hyenas in general.

Minor points, are still points, I already won all the major ones, as well you know.

[/QUOTE]


~~~

You lose, publicly, again.

"...The Spotted Hyena was formally described by German naturalist Johann Christian Polycarp Erxleben in 1777. The Greek root (krokoutas) of its scientific name was used by Pliny the Elder for an unknown animal, possibly the hyena, in Ethiopia. The term is derived from crocus, commonly used in the ancient world as a yellow dye. Literally, it means "the saffron-colored one".

It is thought that the ancestors of the spotted hyena branched off from the true hyenas (striped hyenas) during the Pliocene era, 5.332 million to 1.806 million years ago...

~~~

The term, 'Hyena', in general would by definition, be the 'true' Hyena, a scavenger, thus, gramatically, you are in error and I am correct.

In the matter of major points...claim victory all you want, I know, as does everyone who follows my logic, that my defense of the individual is always logical, rational and supportable.

Your luke warm cuddling up to those who sacrifice the individual to the collective, won't even attempt to justify their belief's let alone defend them.

There is no winning and losing here, you simply don't have a case to make and your efforts and continual criticism are beginning to wear on everyone.

Anytime you care to present a justification of a collectivist society, be it Trotskyite or Maoist, I will find pleasure in ripping it apart, and yes, I use the 'Left' as a general term including all shades of those who sacrifice part or all of the individuals rights.

Works for most people, although you do hate to be labled.

Such a deal.

Amicus...

 

[DeeZire]

These pesky left wing fleas and mosquito's like La Jackass...

La jackass? I see. So now your name is Amicunt. How cute.

First of all, it ain't the free market system, jackass, it be the government of the various nations, representing the agricultural unions, who retain chemical companies to create and manufacture pesticides to solve a particular problem. They are usually partly driven by University research and guided by more blood sucking politicians to pork barrel their own regions, politics as usual, the scavengers of modern man.

And now you're saying that when a farmer uses a pesticide to increase his yield, (and his profit) he's doing it because the government forced him to? Nobody forces organic farmers to use pesticides. Using a pesticide is a choice made by a capitalist to increase his profit.

Again, Amicunt, my friend, your grasp of basic concepts is absent from this discussion. (In your words, "you lose, publicly, again.") Or is this just part of your ideology of hypocrisy, wherein you choose to blame government when a problem caused by the free market becomes too large to ignore?

I think you need to work on your shtick. You're so utterly predictable, the laughs you are garnering are in pity, like when a tired old has-been comic comes on late night TV, telling the same jokes he's been working for 40 years. You need some new material, my friend. (Okay, the hyena was a bit of a left turn, but wouldn't Rox call the hyena a strawman? The fact that you're grasping at straws does not enhance your image, Amicunt.)

(I'm assuming you like the new 'Amicunt' nickname. If not, perhaps you could apologize to La Jackass, at which point we could all go back to being civil with each other, you know, the way grownups are supposed to do?)

 

[Le Jacquelope]

These pesky left wing fleas and mosquito's like La Jackass, flit about sucking blood from living creatures, the only way they can survive, I guess. Like the Hyena, in nature, a scavenger of offal and rotting refuse, the lefties continue to suck life out of the living.

First of all, it ain't the free market system, jackass, it be the government of the various nations, representing the agricultural unions, who retain chemical companies to create and manufacture pesticides to solve a particular problem.

You're so full of shit your eyes are brown.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

But you didn't say Striped Hyenas did you? You said "Hyenas" like when you say "The Left".

and I refute your claiming my information to be false. It was true inasmuch as it referred to Hyenas in general.

Minor points, are still points, I already won all the major ones, as well you know.

I'm sorry to correct you, but you did not win any major or minor points against amicunt (heheh, thank you DeeZire!).

Amicunt's points all blew up in its own face...

 

[neonlyte]

It's good to see that politeness has returned to the AH forum

 

[DeeZire]

It's good to see that politeness has returned to the AH forum

Apparently, in Ami's world, a higher level of communication is achieved by re-naming people in a derogatory manner. Thus, one could conclude he would want us to do the same to him. I see it as a sign of respecting his curious customs. Does this not seem reasonable? And polite?

(Granted, it was probably impolite to add a satirical post to the beginning of a serious thread, but I am a satire writer, and this is the AH, right? If it's not safe to post satire here, where else is there?)

 

[sr71plt]

The rumored disappearance of honeybees is nothing but a left wing plot. It's a scam my friend.

On a personal level that certainly is a fact. I have a hive inside my garage wall that no one will relieve me of. Come and get it and it's yours.

 

[DeeZire]

On a personal level that certainly is a fact. I have a hive inside my garage wall that no one will relieve me of. Come and get it and it's yours.

Seeing as how, today, I'm a liberal, I must defer to my live-and-let-live philosophy and pass on the opportunity to commune with your bees. However, if I were having a faux conservative day, I'd be over there in a second with napalm and a blow torch.

Have you considered getting some of the pesticide mentioned in this thread and spreading it around your yard? If the bees died shortly thereafter, you could add one more bit of evidence to this discussion, (evidence that would most certainly leave one particular AH'er unconvinced.) However, if you did kill your personal beehive, then you'd be guilty of hastening the extinction of mankind. I must say, at this particular juncture, it appears the expression 'it sucks to be you' would be applicable. (No offense, SR.)

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Seeing as how, today, I'm a liberal, I must defer to my live-and-let-live philosophy and pass on the opportunity to commune with your bees. However, if I were having a faux conservative day, I'd be over there in a second with napalm and a blow torch.

BTW I had a good belly laugh at your faux conservative opening response.

 

[DeeZire]

BTW I had a good belly laugh at your faux conservative opening response.

That's a relief. Sometimes I think my satirical endeavors are for an audience of one - me.

I was pretty sure that a certain AH'er would challenge the validity of the purported bee problem, and I wanted to beat him to the punch - not that it made a difference. (The word 'clueless' comes to mind.)

 

[rgraham666]

On a serious note, I won't blame capitalism for this one.

To drag out my favorite analogy blaming capitalism for this is like blaming a shovel used to kill somebody. It's just a tool. It can't be at fault. It's an unconscious mechanism.

The people using the tool? Them I blame.

 

[gauchecritic]

On a serious note, I won't blame capitalism for this one.

To drag out my favorite analogy blaming capitalism for this is like blaming a shovel used to kill somebody. It's just a tool. It can't be at fault. It's an unconscious mechanism.

The people using the tool? Them I blame.

I'd go further and say (as I have before) that any economic system is only a measuring device but people insist that they are usable tools.

 

[rgraham666]

I hadn't considered that thought before, gauche. Thanks.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

So we've been protecting crops from bugs and now we're facing the risk of having no crops to protect.

All so a corporation could maximize its profits.

Blah blah blah.

What we need is to bring back the Soviet communes. Yeah, that'll really put food on the table.

Yawn.

 

[The_Trouvere]

If the bees die, so do we.

They are essential for pollenation of almost every food crop there is.

Og

Honey bees are not native to the New World. They came over with the Europeans. The killer bees came over from Africa. The food crops probably can be pollenated by bumble bees, and other native bee species. That does not mean that we should not try to save the honey bees.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Blah blah blah.

What we need is to bring back the Soviet communes. Yeah, that'll really put food on the table.

Yawn.

Is this your way of denying the possibility that Bayer may have tried to maximise its profits?

As you know damn well, no one here seriously claims communism is the answer. A balance between private and public forces-- which is an always unsteady entity-- may be an answer. If you want to help the dialogue on this forum become something more nuanced, get your reflexes under control.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Is this your way of denying the possibility that Bayer may have tried to maximise its profits?

As you know damn well, no one here seriously claims communism is the answer. A balance between private and public forces-- which is an always unsteady entity-- may be an answer. If you want to help the dialogue on this forum become something more nuanced, get your reflexes under control.

Of course Bayer tried to maximize its profits - that's what every person corporeal or legal does when they do business. The question is did they knowingly produced and distributed a harmful product - essentially, did they commit fraud. Apparently legal processes are underway to determine if directors or managers within the firm did so, and in the fullness of time the truth will be known and consequences will follow.

"Maximizing profit" is just a fancy way of saying "pursuing one's self interest," a universal human characteristic which, as Adam Smith explained, is a constructive force for society. Fraud, on the other hand, is not universal, and obviously is not a constructive force. But condemning fraud doesn't have the same radical-chic, trendy appeal as condemning capitalism or putting on faux-Marxist airs.