Writing POV of the gender you're not

[BelleCanzuto]

Ok, I'll admit that's a convoluted title.

I'm piggybacking on, or my question is tangential to the thread about whether people prefer male or female POV in erotica. I've been thinking about what it might be like to attempt writing a story told from a male POV. Since I'm cisfemale, that will mean writing outside of my own lived experience.

So here're the questions:
When you're reading a story, what are some things that would instantly tell you the author is not the same gender as the POV of the main character (either in a 1st or close 3rd)?
What are some "mistakes" you've run across that take you out of the story?

I'm curious about physical things (like descriptions of sensations that seemed weird) as much as characteristics or behaviors described.

Thx
Belle

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm mulling this over, and nothing comes to mind. Honestly, I think this is less of an issue than some people make it out to be. The biggest mistake, probably, is that some male authors create female characters who are little more than fantasy projections -- big tits and big libidos and not much else. But I've seen authors of both genders do a fine job writing from the POV of the opposite gender.

 

[YDB95]

The classic example I always see cited is The Outsiders by S.E. Hinton - written by a woman, the protagonist is a teenage boy, and although I (male) thought she did a pretty good job, there are a couple of scenes with the protagonist and his male friend cuddling together for warmth on a cold night, which didn't sound like something two straight guys would do.

Now, on Lit? I guess you already know any story with a female protagonist who waxes too poetic about her own body, or who willingly jumps in bed with another woman when she's ostensibly straight, was probably written by a man. The other way around, nothing comes immediately to mind.

For what it's worth, the most recent comment on my story Beware the Quiet One is about this very topic: the anonymous reader said one could tell from the way I wrote women that I'm not one. Probably true, but the reader didn't explain what I got wrong, or even identify hir own gender. Helpful, huh?

 

[NotWise]

I'm curious about physical things (like descriptions of sensations that seemed weird) as much as characteristics or behaviors described.

Belle

I've come to believe that men and women actually experience sexual excitement (even orgasm) in much the same way, and that it's a perception of our role in sex that differentiates us. In real life, people adopt different roles depending on their personal goals and relationships. As a result, there's no inherent difference, but maybe a statistical one.

I don't think there's an automatic trigger to say that a writer is not of the same gender as the character. One thing that comes to mind is that a woman would rarely describe her genitals in much detail (because it's mostly "down there"), so a male writing a female POV shouldn't go into a lot of detail. Conversely, a woman writing a male role should put in a lot of anatomical detail that they might not usually think about.

CAUTION. I'm a guy. I've never written from a first person female point of view. I have quite a few stories that are third person from a woman's point of view, including one in which both of the main characters are female. The latter is my lowest-scoring story, but I doubt that it's because of an inaccurate description.

 

[jaF0]

Not sure I've ever posted a story link here, but considering the topic .....

https://www.literotica.com/s/dreams-career-advancement

 

[Voboy]

I’m a guy who does a lot of FP female.

As far as I’m aware, I write all my POV people as PEOPLE first. Make them engaging, complicated, and realistic, and it won’t matter. Especially on a site like this. We all know that neither males nor females are monolithic. So? Write a sex-crazed female. Write a cerebral male. I’ve done both; they’ve both worked.

I’m with Simon: this is, I think, much less of an issue than some think. Write an interesting character and your readers will enjoy your work. That’s the only rule, I think.

 

[SimonDoom]

As far as I’m aware, I write all my POV people as PEOPLE first. Make them engaging, complicated, and realistic, and it won’t matter. .

I think this is the best advice. Do this, and do it well, and in most cases there will be no problem.

 

[gordo12]

Further to what notwise says, I believe a woman is more interested in the emotional aspects of making love so when you see descriptions of sex using the C word or focused on the size of the appendage it's a male writer. Men want body details, women want romance/emotion IE: mental details.

At least that's my belief.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I'll use somebody else's words to answer this question for me:

I stumbled on this story in a very roundabout way, so knew absolutely nothing about the author. Was really surprised to find out it was written by a man, I was 150% sure it was a female writing

 

[KeithD]

I'll use somebody else's words to answer this question for me:

I got that on an Amazon listing of a light-lesbian mystery series. But not until book eight and only then because I agreed to be on a book festival panel as the female pen name author and didn't go in drag.

So, I don't give much attention to questions like this.

 

[Voboy]

Further to what notwise says, I believe a woman is more interested in the emotional aspects of making love so when you see descriptions of sex using the C word or focused on the size of the appendage it's a male writer. Men want body details, women want romance/emotion IE: mental details.

At least that's my belief.

In my real-life experiences, the ONLY people I've ever heard actually use the c-word were females. Lots of them, your belief notwithstanding.

And see my post above. Plenty of males prefer what you think they don't, as do plenty of females.

 

[gordo12]

In my real-life experiences, the ONLY people I've ever heard actually use the c-word were females. Lots of them, your belief notwithstanding.

And see my post above. Plenty of males prefer what you think they don't, as do plenty of females.

Interesting. Our experiences differ because I can't EVER remember a woman referring to her "cunt". I've heard them calling other women a cunt when insulting them, but never in relationship to their own genitals.

But something like "my cunt is hungry for your cock?" That to me has male written all over it.

Ladies?

Edit: I guess I should say all my experience is with women decades ago. I'm aware that women chase sex far more nowadays than they did when I was young so maybe it's just my experience that's lacking in all this. Younger people may have a different viewpoints .

 

[JaxRhapsody]

I think there could be a tell sign if you kinda stick to stereotypes despite the letcherous women out there who are the opposite and the opposed reserved men. There is that woman out there who wants the guy to just ram his dick in her ass amd pound the shit out of it, while throwing herself at him and he's wondering if he should leave, thinking it was going to be some sorta intimate situation.

I've written both man and woman lead stuff, but I think it's obvious I'm a guy and I don't have some androgynous like user/pen name like some people do on these boards. I once asked LoveCraft if he was a female, but I think that was Keiths fault. lol. It brings the question of; does one get more cred with such a name writing as the opposite sex and revealing such, or obviously the opposite sex, with good writing?

 

[SamScribble]

Interesting. Our experiences differ because I can't EVER remember a woman referring to her "cunt".

It may be different in Canada. In England - especially among posh totty - cunt is pretty common. And not as an insult. Perhaps we have Chaucer to thank for that.

 

[JuanSeiszFitzHall]

Belle, you already write male characters, and work to make their actions plausible. You probably also have them express their hopes, fears, and desires. You also surely know and understand people, as a result of your lived experience.

As an exercise, why not look at one of your existing stories, take a passage in which a male character figures prominently, and rewrite it with the exact same events, but in that male character’s voice? You may find that by focusing on the character you’ve developed, you can already make the male first-person narrative believable.

 

[yukonnights]

You just have to get yourself into the heads of your characters, it's the only way. Become them, hurt when they hurt, laugh when they laugh. Your choice of writing in "1st or close 3rd", affords you a lot of tools to do this.

Below are several examples from stories that are about, either a) Lesbians or b) Transgender mtf in love with a lesbian (eg: a lesbian love affair).

If I can do it, I'm sure you can do it. Just rely on all your years of experience, not as a writer, but as a female in a world with both genders. You know enough about how men act and think to build the character. In regard to physical details you are unsure of, find a male 'helper' to read your draft and tell you if something seems a bit off.

If it makes you feel better, I'm getting ready to put my neck on the line with my newest story that is mostly about two bisexual women on the hunt for the right guy to 'do stuff to'
***

1.Your story is great I love the time you have taken building the characters. Can't wait for chapter two.
***

2.Ooh I love this series! You write so beautifully. Can't wait till the hubby comes back from the war or did he really go? Hmm. Eagerly anticipating the next chapter.
***

3. this is by far the best ending to a very good story, had Kendra knew what was in store for her in part 1 that it would end in finding true love, what if bobby never joined the army? what if they never moved out of eden? and most important one what if Kendra never made that first call to Lisa? a lot of what if's but as they say love will always find a way.
***

4. As a trans woman, this story completely captured my experiences and feelings. If I recall correctly, the author is cis-male: you, sir, did a fine job of creating a truthful portrait of transgender women. Too often we become sexual objects or two-dimensional caricatures. You crafted a beautiful story that has aroused every nerve (spiritual, emotional, personal, and especially sexual) within me. I'd go higher than five stars but the site won't allow it. I've never read a more accurate, human, or beautiful portrayal of a trans character. My hat's off to you
***

 

[BelleCanzuto]

But something like "my cunt is hungry for your cock?" That to me has male written all over it.

I wrote almost that exact line as a thought of the female narrator of my latest story: "If I could have taken his cock deep in my cunt" or somesuch. In my BDSM stories the women are sometimes very graphic and crude (for lack of a better term) about what they're asking for. I think it all does come down to the character.

 

[BelleCanzuto]

I've come to believe that men and women actually experience sexual excitement (even orgasm) in much the same way, and that it's a perception of our role in sex that differentiates us. In real life, people adopt different roles depending on their personal goals and relationships. As a result, there's no inherent difference, but maybe a statistical one.

I don't think there's an automatic trigger to say that a writer is not of the same gender as the character. One thing that comes to mind is that a woman would rarely describe her genitals in much detail (because it's mostly "down there"), so a male writing a female POV shouldn't go into a lot of detail. Conversely, a woman writing a male role should put in a lot of anatomical detail that they might not usually think about.

CAUTION. I'm a guy. I've never written from a first person female point of view. I have quite a few stories that are third person from a woman's point of view, including one in which both of the main characters are female. The latter is my lowest-scoring story, but I doubt that it's because of an inaccurate description.

I agree with you that there are many more similarities than there are differences. But your comment about what physical details to ignore or include is what I'm curious about. Are there other things that you think the genders pay different amounts of attention to, or are more important?

I’m a guy who does a lot of FP female.

As far as I’m aware, I write all my POV people as PEOPLE first. Make them engaging, complicated, and realistic, and it won’t matter. Especially on a site like this. We all know that neither males nor females are monolithic. So? Write a sex-crazed female. Write a cerebral male. I’ve done both; they’ve both worked.

I’m with Simon: this is, I think, much less of an issue than some think. Write an interesting character and your readers will enjoy your work. That’s the only rule, I think.

Yeah, I agree that writing an interesting character is the important thing. I'm certainly not turned off by reading female POV pieces written by people I know or think are male. But, I'm wondering if there are certain pitfalls.

 

[gordo12]

It may be different in Canada. In England - especially among posh totty - cunt is pretty common. And not as an insult. Perhaps we have Chaucer to thank for that.

I had a chat last night with wifey about this. She hates the C word and would never use it. She tells me that she's never heard another woman use it except as an insult.

Her other comment was, "Who wants to talk anyway. It's more fun to get down to it."

Hmmm dialogue-less stories.

So maybe it's a generational thing and of course as someone pointed out we live in Canada. A paragon of virtue and res[cough cough]pect for others. No cunts allowed.

 

[Kojak01]

I think that men and women have different perceptions of other people.

I believe I can always tell whether it's a man or a woman writing. But that doesn't need to be bad. Just the opposite:

What does a woman want a man to notice when he first looks at her vs. what does a man look for when he first sees a woman?
What does a woman think a man notices first he looks at her?
You can, of course, switch the genders around freely in these questions and considering the fact that not all women are size-queens and not all men are DD-tit-lovers, there are probably more answers to people answering...

Long story short: If you as a woman want to write a story from a male 1st pov, then go for it. And if someone says you shouldn't have, tell him/her to shut the fuck up

 

[UsuallyPresent]

I think that men and women have different perceptions of other people.

Personally, I believe it's broader than that - everyone's different in how they perceive people, how they value people, and how those affect their actions. I believe that this is driven in turn both by nature (genetics, foods, toxins, parasites/symbiotes, etc) and nurture (culture, environment, family interactions, economics, etc)

While there are multiple broad swaths of people who share similarities, if you poke into these blocks you'll find differences, some subtle, some very very blatant. This affects politics, economics, religion, neighborhoods, crime, ... well, most any interpersonal relationship.

How does this affect writing?

Your character will almost certainly belong to some group or groups - a political party, a religion, a club, a family, whatever. They will have some similar ideas with others in each group as to what's going on and why, some similar preconceptions (true, false, or shades-of-gray-in-between), and some similar thought patterns with others in their group, but there'll also be some differences.

WHY does the preacher of this church do charitable work for food pantries but not libraries? HOW does the board president react to a member's idea to alter the group's purpose? WHERE does the cop send the homeless person they find in the back alley for help, if anywhere? WHEN does a business decide to invest into or flee from a location?

Are there stereotypes you can tie into within your stories? Of course! Just be aware that these differ over time, place, membership in other groups, and other factors, and that even the clique-iest, the most monolithic and self-reinforcing social structures will have differences that can be teased out and examined.

IMO. YMMV.

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm reminded of the movie As Good As It Gets, in which Jack Nicholson plays the role of an irascible and anti-social fiction writer, Melvin Udall. An enthusiastic female fan asks him how he writes women so well, and he responds, "I start with a man, and I take away reason and accountability."

I'm not sure if there is a formula for doing this right.

 

[Maeven_quinn]

I'm mulling this over, and nothing comes to mind. Honestly, I think this is less of an issue than some people make it out to be. The biggest mistake, probably, is that some male authors create female characters who are little more than fantasy projections -- big tits and big libidos and not much else. But I've seen authors of both genders do a fine job writing from the POV of the opposite gender.

There’s an entire subgenre of satire about men writing women like that.

I agree it’s not as big of a deal that people think. Authors write characters of any gender all the time. Sex isn’t different.

I personally struggle with writing masculine friendships, though.

 

[SimonDoom]

For a hilarious (and maybe apocryphal) example of the difference between male and female writing styles, you have to read this tandem story assignment gone awry:

https://thechive.com/2010/04/13/creative-writing-assignment-goes-hilariously-awry-1-assignment/

 

[NotWise]

For a hilarious (and maybe apocryphal) example of the difference between male and female writing styles, you have to read this tandem story assignment gone awry:

https://thechive.com/2010/04/13/creative-writing-assignment-goes-hilariously-awry-1-assignment/

That was hilarious. It struck close to home, too. I was once in a creative writing class where we had the same kind of personality gaps. I'm glad we didn't have to do tandem writing. The open critique sessions were bad enough.