Writing about what you don’t know

[TxRad]

Being white, older, and from a small town in central East Texas, I find each day that I know less and less about the world and the people in it. Why that is, I don’t really know. I have the Internet and talk to people around the world as easily as I used to talk to my neighbors. I don’t even talk to my neighbors anymore. I don’t know who half of them are. We had a hurricane pass through last year and power was down for over a week. I met more people in that short period of time than I had in the last ten years I’d lived in my house.

What brought this on? I wrote an interracial story about a black woman. She came off sounding whiter than I do and that’s saying a lot. Some time ago, I started a story about a younger girl and an older guy. I got myself tangled up in the gothic, punk, skater mess and I still haven’t sorted it out. My Mexican characters are a little better but not much.

So where do you go for cultural information? Whom do you ask about slang? Whom do you ask about this, that, and the other? The myriad of differences between races, cultures, and groups. For that matter, how right does a story have to be? We’re just writing porn most would say. Well, how about later if and when we move on to something of a more mainstream venue.

Do you have to just write about who and what you know? If not then where would you go for the information? The Internet and books are to flat, to one-dimensional. Unless you have friends in the group or of the race, you want to write about, you find yourself at a stalemate. It’s not as if you can just walk up to someone and ask him or her. Well, you could but I doubt that you’d get much of an answer besides fuck off.

Maybe I’m the only one with this problem. Maybe I’ve lived in the woods to long. Maybe I need to get out and mingle more. Around here that’s not too likely. Black, white, or brown, they are all rather clannish and I don’t mean that kind of Klan. They just stay to themselves as much as possible. Things seem to run smoother that way, at least among the older generations. The young people seem to have less and less problems as the years go by.

I’ve been a lot of places and I’ve done a lot of things in my life but my worldly education is still very lacking in some very specific areas. Interracial and interpersonal are foremost on my list at the present time. It’s sometimes funny how little you know after you’ve learned so much. Maybe I need to stick to writing what I know about and leave the rest to people that are more knowledgeable, more in tune with the multifaceted type of life we have today.


Okay, I’ve had my question/rant/confession for the day, now it’s your turn. Answer/ask/complain/or rant on your own. I won’t even mention flirting because it would be useless and anyway it’s too much fun to try and stop it.

Have a nice day now, ya hear….

 

[oggbashan]

Writers fake it

I have written about 19th Century India. Harold Plays the Hero and part of The Worst Chain Story Ever Ch. 01.

I did some research to add to my general knowledge, but ultimately the story was based on faking it.

In the end I chickened-out and made the story occur in the main character's dream.

Most readers won't detect your lack of knowledge if you have checked Wikipedia for the basics.

Og

 

[CharleyH]

I don't "wholly" agree that writers fake it, yet in essence you are correct, Og. I believe good writers research and interview and use a myraid of tactics to induce the reader into believeing a story.

If I write as a male? Then certainly, I must talk to men to understand not the mechanics, but the feeling of an orgasm to make it "seem" real to other men.

I research a lot and ask around, generally. It depends on the story and what I can borrow from reality and my experience and what I cannot. I wrote a gay male story once (since removed it from Lit) yet received two PMs from older gay men telling me that the story made them feel like they were in the NY circa 1978 gay scene all over again. Upon informing them that I was a woman and not old enough in 1978 to have experienced it? They were truly amazed. (Not a brag, just a recount). Research does the mind and story a hell of a lot of good.

Edit to add: but in the end we need to fake it to make it a really good story.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I've done Interracial and Historical fiction. The readers know when you are bullshitting them.

 

[oggbashan]

The successes I am pleased about are the stories about obscure fetishes that seem to work for the aficionados of that specific fetish when it has no appeal for me whatever.

I'm still stuck on writing for the fans of South Indian Women's Hairy Armpits. The story has reached about 2,000 words and I can't get any further. I haven't found any stories that could give me guidance about the appeal of Hairy Armpits.

Og

 

[oggbashan]

I've done Interracial and Historical fiction. The readers know when you are bullshitting them.

But if you do the research, especially through checking out the Top Listed stories for that category, you're not bullshitting them, you're writing exactly what they want.

I have made mistakes and bullshitted, particularly at the start of the Erotic Horror category, when I wrote stories that were not Erotic, nor Horror, but just horrible. They are still posted.

Og

 

[CharleyH]

I've done Interracial and Historical fiction. The readers know when you are bullshitting them.

Yet, in every fiction (hence the word, itself) there must be a certain degree of bullshit otherwise it's not a story, but an autobiography.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Yet, in every fiction (hence the word, itself) there must be a certain degree of bullshit otherwise it's not a story, but an autobiography.

True, Charley,

But you still have to have the basics correct. For instance, in Historical, you have to have to names, places, people etc correct within the story, otherwise it fall apart.
For example, if you wrote a story about Jack the Ripper, it would have to be in Whitechaple, the police inspector is known, the victims are known and so on. Who you portray in the story as the Ripper and how he goes about enticing his victims is entirely your own fiction.

But you can't set the story in Berlin and make Conrad Adenhauer the Ripper. That doesn't work.

 

[Tom Collins]

I don't know how much this will help, if any, but here ya go, babe.

www.urbandictionary.com

 

[CharleyH]

True, Charley,

But you still have to have the basics correct. For instance, in Historical, you have to have to names, places, people etc correct within the story, otherwise it fall apart.
For example, if you wrote a story about Jack the Ripper, it would have to be in Whitechaple, the police inspector is known, the victims are known and so on. Who you portray in the story as the Ripper and how he goes about enticing his victims is entirely your own fiction.

But you can't set the story in Berlin and make Conrad Adenhauer the Ripper. That doesn't work.

(Aside: LOL - yes, well you can't change history except maybe in sci-fi, JJ and fiction is ... fiction. If we wrote truth, even in history? Well, that would be a big yawn.)

I know - which is why researching and interviewing is so important to me as a writer and a reader. Nothing more irritating to me than reading a BDSM story by someone who knows nothing of scene, or a lesbian story by a man who knows nothing about the female body.

In other words Tex? The library ... specific sex forums and 'talking' to all those others in places you have never been.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

True, Charley,

But you still have to have the basics correct. For instance, in Historical, you have to have to names, places, people etc correct within the story, otherwise it fall apart.
For example, if you wrote a story about Jack the Ripper, it would have to be in Whitechaple, the police inspector is known, the victims are known and so on. Who you portray in the story as the Ripper and how he goes about enticing his victims is entirely your own fiction.

But you can't set the story in Berlin and make Conrad Adenhauer the Ripper. That doesn't work.

But you see, you can make that change (of location at least) so long as you have it directly before or after the actual events. What if Jack killed all of those women and then moved to Germany (or was it still Prussia back then)?

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

But you see, you can make that change (of location at least) so long as you have it directly before or after the actual events. What if Jack killed all of those women and then moved to Germany (or was it still Prussia back then)?

You could, but then you would be writing a different story Thee. It would be something like "Jack the Ripper II". The problem is, you have to be honest with your readers. If they expect a story about Jack the Ripper, it would have to be in London. If you tell them up front the story is the continued version of what happens next.. then you could change the locations and so on. But you would still have to do the research to make the locations and so on correct.

 

[Crouching_Buddha]

I have to say I haven't written an interracial sex story at this point.

However, I've read several, and I've had non-white and non-male characters in my story. So this is my 2 cents.

You have to do a bit of research. It's as simple as that. Either you need to interact with the age/race/gender group you're writing about, or you need to do some reading.

But remember this; racial/gender/age groups have certain qualities and quirks unique to that group, this is true. But you also don't want to overdo it. It's fine to want to include the black experience for a black character, or the feminine view point for a female character...but these two characters are still something all your older, white male characters are; human. They're people, and while your particular group will affect your life and outlook, it's ultimately your experience and your own personality that define who you are. Making all your black characters 'ghetto' and never say much of anything outside of slang, ebonics, or other such things, just make it look like you A: tried too hard, and B: Don't understand that a stereotype is not all inclusive.

So basicly, do some research, and apply a given group charactaristic to a character, but don't overdo it. In my opinion, a lot of authors who write outside their group, whether it be gender, ethnic, or age, overdo things waaaay too much. A persons group charactaristics should be a mild flavoring, not a massive spicing that sends you running for a glass of water.

And on that horrid, horrid analogy, I'll end my rant

 

[Aurora Black]

I have to say I haven't written an interracial sex story at this point.

However, I've read several, and I've had non-white and non-male characters in my story. So this is my 2 cents.

You have to do a bit of research. It's as simple as that. Either you need to interact with the age/race/gender group you're writing about, or you need to do some reading.

But remember this; racial/gender/age groups have certain qualities and quirks unique to that group, this is true. But you also don't want to overdo it. It's fine to want to include the black experience for a black character, or the feminine view point for a female character...but these two characters are still something all your older, white male characters are; human. They're people, and while your particular group will affect your life and outlook, it's ultimately your experience and your own personality that define who you are. Making all your black characters 'ghetto' and never say much of anything outside of slang, ebonics, or other such things, just make it look like you A: tried too hard, and B: Don't understand that a stereotype is not all inclusive.

So basicly, do some research, and apply a given group charactaristic to a character, but don't overdo it. In my opinion, a lot of authors who write outside their group, whether it be gender, ethnic, or age, overdo things waaaay too much. A persons group charactaristics should be a mild flavoring, not a massive spicing that sends you running for a glass of water.

And on that horrid, horrid analogy, I'll end my rant

I agree. Stereotypes are NOT the way to go. I haven't written an interracial piece just yet, but one's definitely on the horizon within the next few months. I'll concentrate on portraying my characters as people first, colors second.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Maybe we are missing a point here. Are blacks, Indians, Muslems or even eskamos all that different? Or maybe are the any more different than a white person living in New York versus a white person living in the deep south?

Just something to ponder.

 

[CharleyH]

Maybe we are missing a point here. Are blacks, Indians, Muslems or even eskamos all that different? Or maybe are the any more different than a white person living in New York versus a white person living in the deep south?

Just something to ponder.

If you do your research? Yes.

 

[FallingToFly]

I write a lot of things I don't know about, really. Musicians- oh gods. I took piano as a very young child and violin for a couple semesters in middle school, but I literally can't play an instrument. However, I sing, used to sing very well, and I understand how music -works- on a person. I also have a lot of musician friends that were generous with time to let me hang out and watch them play, that were always willing to give me a few minutes to ask about the best guitars or drums. (In one piece I'm working on, Beautiful Mistake, I actually have a scene that made a friend see red and get teared up with rage- it involved a really, really rare model of Gibson and someone's head meeting violently.)

I've also done a lot of horror, which yes, I know more about than I should, but I find it hard to write. Even though my brain naturally runs in the grooves of dark, violent and disturbed, putting that into words is very difficult for me- and I always find ending it difficult.

The hardest part for me is kids lit. Yes, I do write children stories, and illustrate them, and finding something that kids will love in the myriad of ideas that I have is difficult. I do some young adult stuff as well, and that, although it is very easy to write, has an issue on the darkness as well. It's a thin line.

What can't I write? Romance, fluff. I have NO idea how that kind of relationship works. I don't know what to say or do, I don't know how to be cute, or soft, of fluffy- so writing it kills me. I have to ask my HUSBAND for tips on how to write a soft, loving woman! It sucks, lol, but I work through it.

I think that the trick to writing what you don't know is something you find on your own. Fake it for the rough draft, research and refine it for the finished product- that's how I work.

 

[oggbashan]

Recognise limitations

There are limits to accurate research.

I wouldn't write a story set in present day US and post it here. All the research I could do wouldn't convince a US resident of the particular locality.

I had an argument about one of my stories set in 1950s UK. I knew it was accurate. I lived through the 1950s and I checked a few facts with contemporary newspaper/magazines from my own archives. The reader was convinced that the story was psychologically impossible for the 1950s. He was comparing my scenario with his own experience of a Mid-West small town in the 1950s and saying that the women couldn't have been that sexually aware...

We were at cross purposes. I have no real idea what the 1950s were like in a Mid-West small town. I did know what they were like in a large port town in the UK.

He couldn't write a story set in MY history and convince me.

I couldn't write a story set in HIS history and convince him.

We both might be able to convince much younger readers.

Og

 

[CharleyH]

There are limits to accurate research.

I wouldn't write a story set in present day US and post it here. All the research I could do wouldn't convince a US resident of the particular locality.

I had an argument about one of my stories set in 1950s UK. I knew it was accurate. I lived through the 1950s and I checked a few facts with contemporary newspaper/magazines from my own archives. The reader was convinced that the story was psychologically impossible for the 1950s. He was comparing my scenario with his own experience of a Mid-West small town in the 1950s and saying that the women couldn't have been that sexually aware...

We were at cross purposes. I have no real idea what the 1950s were like in a Mid-West small town. I did know what they were like in a large port town in the UK.

He couldn't write a story set in MY history and convince me.

I couldn't write a story set in HIS history and convince him.

We both might be able to convince much younger readers.

Og

Actually, that's not true. I think you can write a VERY accurate and believable description of a time and place you have never been ... like now is the USA.

Edit to add: or even in the 1950's USA. I think writing of Russia in 1950 would be more a challenge.

 

[Vermilion]

God this is such a fascinating topic. I haven't been on lit forums for ages, been too busy doing my final year work for my degree. Anyway, just today I was struck with inspiration for a story after seeing some clips of a tv programme.

It's kind of based around a tribal lifestyle, something like the Aboriginals, but I don't know whether to make it specifically them with the possibility of getting something hideously wrong about them or just to make it vaguely 'tribal' and 'ethnic' and let people apply their own imagery. This, at least, will leave me free to make up customs, festivals etc that suit my story but may not actually exist.

Having no idea at all where I'd find accounts of an aboriginal tribe's life and ceremonies without poring through some very dry anthropological texts (which I do NOT have time for this year) I've regretfully decided to keep it vague.
Unless I meet someone who can fill me in, but where would I find such a person?

Anyways. Wonderfully interesting and relevant topic.

What Ogg was saying kind of reminded me what I was discussing with one of my tutors last term. I study history of art and we were talking about the difficulty of ever seeing an artwork as it would have been seen by contemporaries, let alone when we try to interpret it. As human beings we naturally apply our own modern views and morals to things and, no matter how we try, we will never be able to truly put ourselves in another time and culture and see things as they saw them. I suppose the same can be said of writing about that which we don't know. All we can do is our best.

And if anyone's got a moment would they mind reading one or two of my stories written from a male perspective and letting me know if I nailed it or if I need to do some more research?

http://english.literotica.com:81/stories/showstory.php?id=268904

that's one of them - any good?
University life is something I *do* know about, but being a bloke - that's all from observation or imagination.

btw- whoever said they could do dark and twisted and horro but couldn't manage fluffy love stuff - can we swap opinions some time? I end up making them too soppy usually and can't quite get my head round horror porn so I reckon we could be useful to each other!

x
V

 

[FallingToFly]

God this is such a fascinating topic. I haven't been on lit forums for ages, been too busy doing my final year work for my degree. Anyway, just today I was struck with inspiration for a story after seeing some clips of a tv programme.

It's kind of based around a tribal lifestyle, something like the Aboriginals, but I don't know whether to make it specifically them with the possibility of getting something hideously wrong about them or just to make it vaguely 'tribal' and 'ethnic' and let people apply their own imagery. This, at least, will leave me free to make up customs, festivals etc that suit my story but may not actually exist.

Having no idea at all where I'd find accounts of an aboriginal tribe's life and ceremonies without poring through some very dry anthropological texts (which I do NOT have time for this year) I've regretfully decided to keep it vague.
Unless I meet someone who can fill me in, but where would I find such a person?

Anyways. Wonderfully interesting and relevant topic.

What Ogg was saying kind of reminded me what I was discussing with one of my tutors last term. I study history of art and we were talking about the difficulty of ever seeing an artwork as it would have been seen by contemporaries, let alone when we try to interpret it. As human beings we naturally apply our own modern views and morals to things and, no matter how we try, we will never be able to truly put ourselves in another time and culture and see things as they saw them. I suppose the same can be said of writing about that which we don't know. All we can do is our best.

And if anyone's got a moment would they mind reading one or two of my stories written from a male perspective and letting me know if I nailed it or if I need to do some more research?

http://english.literotica.com:81/stories/showstory.php?id=268904

that's one of them - any good?
University life is something I *do* know about, but being a bloke - that's all from observation or imagination.

btw- whoever said they could do dark and twisted and horro but couldn't manage fluffy love stuff - can we swap opinions some time? I end up making them too soppy usually and can't quite get my head round horror porn so I reckon we could be useful to each other!

x
V

VERMILION!

*tackles* Woman, I've been wondering what you were up to!

 

[oggbashan]

...What Ogg was saying kind of reminded me what I was discussing with one of my tutors last term. I study history of art and we were talking about the difficulty of ever seeing an artwork as it would have been seen by contemporaries, let alone when we try to interpret it. As human beings we naturally apply our own modern views and morals to things and, no matter how we try, we will never be able to truly put ourselves in another time and culture and see things as they saw them. I suppose the same can be said of writing about that which we don't know. All we can do is our best.

There is an advantage in being old and decrepit. I can remember viewpoints from the 1950s until the present. I left the UK a couple of times to live abroad so there are distinct cut-off points at the beginning of the 1950s, in the middle to late 1950s, and again at the middle of the 1960s. I can be sure that things were so in one period and not in another.

My extended family included some elderly relations who loved to talk. One was a suffragist (NOT suffragette) and became the chief wage earner of the family in the 1910s. Some great-aunts were active war workers in WWI. An elderly aunt was an 1890s campaigner against alcohol and visited public houses trying to persuade men not to drink their wages. Most women were banned from public houses then and visiting one was NOT DONE...

By talking to the relations and listening I learned a lot about life in England from Victorian times including the Dickensian slums of the East End. Jack the Ripper's haunts were familiar to my relations.

But the modern US? Sometimes I think it is too diverse to comprehend...

Og

 

[CharleyH]

I study history of art and we were talking about the difficulty of ever seeing an artwork as it would have been seen by contemporaries, let alone when we try to interpret it. As human beings we naturally apply our own modern views and morals to things and, no matter how we try, we will never be able to truly put ourselves in another time and culture and see things as they saw them. I suppose the same can be said of writing about that which we don't know. All we can do is our best.

Indeed, so therefore fiction must always be a part of our writing. However, isn't the suspension of disbelief a part of why we all get wrapped up in a story? How is it created?

 

[TheeGoatPig]

Then again, every time I write a sex scene I am making it up as a go along, as I don't remember what sex feels like at all. My earlier stories (most of which I won't release) were written before I found internet porn, and are completely made up out of the nothingness of my head. It's all BS.

 

[CharleyH]

Then again, every time I write a sex scene I am making it up as a go along, as I don't remember what sex feels like at all.

Damn boy! You need to experience good sex!