Writing 3rd Person

[Djmac1031]

So I'm trying to branch out and write more 3rd Person perspective stories, yet I find them still coming off as a 1st person story just with word changes.

Example: "Mike said" instead of "I said."

I don't know why I find writing 1st person easier. Perhaps because it's simply an easier way for an inexperienced writer to write? Keeps you essentially in one head space?

I was writing the other night and had to go back and edit because I'd somehow just slipped back into 1st person in the middle of a paragraph .

I've read differing viewpoints on 1st person vs 3rd Person stories, which are "better" or which readers "prefer."

Maybe I should just stick to what works for me?

Just random thoughts on a slow work day

 

[Auden James]

Well, it's up to you if you want to challenge yourself or rather stay in your comfort zone, I guess?

 

[SimonDoom]

There's no right or wrong. You'll find great novels and great short stories with both points of view.

You've already written stories from both points of view. Do whatever you enjoy. I think many authors feel the same way you do: that first-person POV seems more intimate and easier.

My preference is for third-person limited, with a close focus on the thoughts of whatever character is my main character. I find that, for me, it accomplishes everything first-person POV accomplishes while giving me more freedom as the narrator to write in a style that is not confined by the education, background, and personality of the character I'm focusing on. I prefer to be myself as the narrator rather than one of my characters. But I still write in first-person POV sometimes. I like to mix it up.

 

[HeyAll]

Several months ago I started writing stories in present tense -- 1st person and 3rd person.

It takes a while to get used to it. Then it becomes natural.

So if you want to keep going with 3rd person, give it a little more time. Both 1st person and 3rd person play a part. It's good to switch them up because it keeps things new.

 

[Haulover]

The key difference, AFAIC, is that:

- First person : you can only write the story from one perspective - i.e. what does the narrator see / feel / do.

- Third person : frees you from that restriction and you can describe story elements that the main character does not yet know about, or you can describe feelings / points of view / etc. that contradict what the main character feels / sees.

My opinion : Third person enables a more complex structure, but first person is easier to read and allows the reader to identify more closely with the main character.



I've read several mainstream novels in which the author mixes those styles - i.e. some parts are written in first person, others are in third person. I may be too much of a perfectionist - but I don't like that at all, and think it leads to a muddy narrative.

 

[Djmac1031]

To clarify a little:

I'm trying to get away from writing series, except for one that still truly enjoy writing.

That series started out and remained first person, male perspective, for quite some time.

Mainly because my male protagonist was, in essence, a projection of me.

Later I tried a few chapters from the female leads perspective, for fun, and they worked because during those chapters she wasn't with the male lead so it was her story.

As the series has grown, it now has multiple characters, and I thought it might be easier to switch to Third Person so I could bounce easier between them and their stories, thoughts and feelings.

But it's taking me out of my Comfort Zone of just writing everything from the guys point of view.

I suppose challenging myself is a good thing. But I don't want my stories to suffer from it either because of my lack of experience writing third person.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I did the same thing, finding writing what I could see, hear, and feel easier. But as my series evolved, I started putting more third person scenes in to expand beyond my POV. I started injecting those third person scenes with "I didn't see what happened in the kitchen, but my wife later related it to me", then going into describing the third-person scene in the other room.

I'll stick with the same series with my main characters being the center of the universe. But I can now bring in other characters and their stories (ie. 'Chapter 8: Clubs', where half the chapter is about another couple's experience), to expand and try becoming more comfortable with writing in third-person.

After all, if I didn't grow and evolve, my stories would all be: "See Spot run. Run, Spot run!"

 

[NotWise]

So I'm trying to branch out and write more 3rd Person perspective stories, yet I find them still coming off as a 1st person story just with word changes.

Example: "Mike said" instead of "I said."

In a lot of cases, the difference between 1st person and 3rd person limited is just a change in wording. It's fairly easy to write in one and edit to the other.

Differences are larger -- and the advantages of 3rd person are greater -- when you aren't writing in strictly limited 3rd person.

I don't know why I find writing 1st person easier. Perhaps because it's simply an easier way for an inexperienced writer to write? Keeps you essentially in one head space?

I was writing the other night and had to go back and edit because I'd somehow just slipped back into 1st person in the middle of a paragraph .

Most of my earlier writing was in 1st person. Maybe it is easier to start with. In most of those cases I edited back to 3rd person limited when the story became longer and I needed the advantages of 3rd person.

I think it's worth the effort to get comfortable with 3rd person. Then you will have the option of using the voice that is a best match for the story.

I've read differing viewpoints on 1st person vs 3rd Person stories, which are "better" or which readers "prefer."

Maybe I should just stick to what works for me?

Just random thoughts on a slow work day

Neither is necessarily better. Each has it's own advantage.

There's a tremendous flexibility in 3rd person introduced by the fact that dialog is usually in 1st person. That lets you insert a 1st person point of view into a story that is otherwise written in 3rd person. The reverse is hard to do (witness, CiaoSteve's recent thread). My April Fool's story ("Every Girl in Edgarville") is a 3rd person story in which much of the tale is told in first person.

 

[AlexBailey]

Isn't first person the way we naturally communicate?

First hand experiences carry more authinticity, anything else is just hearsay. "Objection, your honor!" When I tell someone about something I have first hand knowledge of I use I, me, we.

Using third person is telling someone else's story, removing the author from the story by a step. It isn't wrong, it's just not as intimate. As others have said, it allows the writer to directly share the thoughts of other characters without filtering through the perspective of the MC.

I suppose it's natural for an author to not want to 'own' a fictional story, especially if it is something they don't have first hand experience with.

 

[yowser]

First person is the natural storyteller's voice. 'Let me tell you what happened the other day ...' It is intimate, immediate, confiding, and often can feel natural and timeless.

Third person does feel one step removed, more movie-like, but allows the author to be the Godhead, with all the power entailed: lots of room to maneuver and develop and reveal, panning out or in to the chessboard, inserting backstory or creative details not always possible with first person.

What kind of story is involved often dictates the approach, but it is a highly personal decision on the author's part.

 

[TadOverdon]

Isn't first person the way we naturally communicate?

This. We're most accustomed to thinking and speaking about the world from our own point of view. By the time you start writing you've probably had a lifetime's practice telling others where you've been, what you did, and how you felt about it. And you've told friends and family a lot of stories already. "So, yesterday, I dropped by the old neighborhood. A lot of the trees were gone. That one we kept climbing up to hang a rope swing from, down near the elementary school? And the fire department would come out and cut it down every couple of weeks? That's gone."

 

[SimonDoom]

Isn't first person the way we naturally communicate?

First hand experiences carry more authinticity, anything else is just hearsay. "Objection, your honor!" When I tell someone about something I have first hand knowledge of I use I, me, we.

Using third person is telling someone else's story, removing the author from the story by a step. It isn't wrong, it's just not as intimate. As others have said, it allows the writer to directly share the thoughts of other characters without filtering through the perspective of the MC.

I suppose it's natural for an author to not want to 'own' a fictional story, especially if it is something they don't have first hand experience with.

But, actually, no, this isn't the way stories traditionally have been told.

The majority of myths, fables, great novels, great short stories, detective novels, genre stories of all kind, and erotic stories, are told in the third person, not the first person. It's not accurate to say that first-person POV is more "natural." It's not, as a matter of fact.

I don't agree that third-person POV is less intimate. If you use a "close" third-person style, where you zero in on a particular character's thoughts and feelings, it can be every bit as intimate as first-person POV. This is particularly true if one writes in the "free indirect style," which is what I'm trying to work on. This is a style that's in third-person POV but the narrator's perspective merges with that of the character. The proof of the success of third-person POV is that so many of the successful stories are written this way.

Other commentators far more experienced and qualified than I am have noted that this belief about the superiority of first-person POV as being "intimate" is a novice writer's belief. It's not what most experienced writers believe. It's not what publishers believe.

There's nothing wrong with writing in the first-person POV. Some of my stories are written from that POV. But third-person POV, done right, can be just as intimate, while also providing two very distinct advantages that first-person POV does not: number 1, obviously, the narrator can reveal the thoughts of multiple characters; number 2, the narrator can write in a voice and style that is independent from that of the main character. This can be very useful.

 

[AlexBailey]

I hear you, Simon.

But again, first person is a more natural means of communication - not necessarily for writing. Those of us who haven't already written more than 100k words of fiction are probably much more familiar with the style of the spoken word. Other styles are likely to require more study.

The first mature work of fiction that really grabbed me was The Catcher In the Rye. I think my next was To Kill a Mockingbird.

 

[AlexBailey]

To Kill a Mockingbird is actually a great case study in perspective.

It's primarily first person narrative with Scout being the protagonist, but it changes to Atticus for parts of the trial. [Edit: Simon is correct - the story remains in Scout's perspective.]

It's got some great examples of how to show other characters emotion while writing first person.

From the link below:
----
“Mr. Tate blinked and ran his hands through his hair,” “his legs were crossed and one arm was resting on the back of his chair.”
----

Check it out:

https://www.sparknotes.com

 

[SimonDoom]

To
It's primarily first person narrative with Scout being the protagonist, but it changes to Atticus for parts of the trial.

https://www.sparknotes.com

I don't recall it switching to Atticus. My recollection is that the trial scenes were narrated by Scout, who was in the courtroom at all times watching her father Atticus.

Obviously, it's written from the POV of Scout as an adult, many years later. A child could not narrate that story. It's an interesting perspective. It's unusual to tell such a complicated, adult story from the perspective of a child, who has grown up.

 

[yowser]

Other commentators far more experienced and qualified than I am have noted that this belief about the superiority of first-person POV as being "intimate" is a novice writer's belief. It's not what most experienced writers believe. It's not what publishers believe.

I don't think it is just a novice writer's belief. The real issue for 1st vs. 3rd is the skill of the writer. There are differences between them, and plenty of tremendous literature has been generated from each perspective. How a writer manages the tale will make the difference between a good tale and a superb one. I do think that third demands more of the writer, who has to play God with greater diligence and keep track of the universe. I still think the nature of the story, what needs to be told and from whom, will help shape the choice of POV.

 

[Voboy]

I default to 1p as well. I find it much more fun to write. But, for some reason, certain genres and themes seem to lend themselves more to 3p.

The story will tell you how it wants to be written. Usually, within the first 2k words or so, you’ll know whether you should change to a different narrative voice if you’re paying attention.

 

[stickygirl]

I've never had the confidence to keep writing a story as "me" because it seems arrogant to me.

OTOH I've never been keen on the idea of group sex. Bringing in a third person creeps me out

 

[Priscilla_June]

I have an irrational annoyance with 1st person stories. Which I had not encountered as much until I came here.

 

[AlexBailey]

I've never had the confidence to keep writing a story as "me" because it seems arrogant to me.

I can see how it could feel that way.

In both books I mentioned;

* The Catcher in the Rye
* To Kill a Mockingbird
* (And my stories for that matter)

The first person protagonist has low levels of self-confidence, the story unfolds with a lot of reflection and discovery. I can see how it would be gross with a James Bond type character.

 

[SimonDoom]

The first person protagonist has low levels of self-confidence, the story unfolds with a lot of reflection and discovery. I can see how it would be gross with a James Bond type character.

That's a GREAT example. You don't want to BE Bond; you want to watch him. He works as a surface character. If you saw everything that was going on underneath, you might not like him.

To give an opposite example, which you also cited: Catcher in the Rye HAS to be in the first person. If it was in the third person, you'd just hate Holden as a pathetic jerk and loser and wonder why you were wasting your time with him. It works only because you're getting his point of view all the time. You get drawn into his weird world.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I have an irrational annoyance with 1st person stories. Which I had not encountered as much until I came here.

Possibly because so many of the stories here are not, in fact, "good" writing, regardless of point of view, and you're reacting to that.

I use both first and third person, but definitely "came of age" as a writer when I realised just how effective (and intimate) close third person can be.

I don't prefer one over the other, and I do think you become a better writer if you can master both.

The notion that first person is automatically more intimate is a false one, that's for sure - I cite this comment often:

I've always been partial to first person narration for conveying the intimate details of a character's inner life. But this story wonderfully shows how third person narration can be used to convey the inner activity of two characters, even during the intricate steps of their dance. We see the evening not as we would see it in real life---where we know our own feelings but can only guess at our partner's---but privy to both sides, able to see the uncertainty and hopefulness and playfulness and arousal on both sides as flirtation turns to courtship and courtship turns to foreplay. It's two intimate stories, really, interwoven at every scene. A tour-de-force of patient, loving, doubly imagined detail.

 

[Djmac1031]

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone.

I guess my goal is to simply keep working at it.

I'm wondering now though if I should just leave well enough alone and keep my series first person.

 

[Handley_Page]

So I'm trying to branch out and write more 3rd Person perspective stories, yet I find them still coming off as a 1st person story just with word changes.

Example: "Mike said" instead of "I said."

I don't know why I find writing 1st person easier. Perhaps because it's simply an easier way for an inexperienced writer to write? Keeps you essentially in one head space?

I was writing the other night and had to go back and edit because I'd somehow just slipped back into 1st person in the middle of a paragraph .

I've read differing viewpoints on 1st person vs 3rd Person stories, which are "better" or which readers "prefer."

Maybe I should just stick to what works for me?

Just random thoughts on a slow work day

Personally, I prefer the "narrated" stories.

 

[TheRedChamber]

So I'm trying to branch out and write more 3rd Person perspective stories, yet I find them still coming off as a 1st person story just with word changes.

Example: "Mike said" instead of "I said."

I think, first of all, if you are slipping back into 1st person so easily, you don't necessarily have a good reason for using 3rd person. It seems like you're just doing it because its a technique you think you should master, but you haven't got a clear idea of why this story needs to be in the 3rd person.

I published two stories here a eight years ago, then took a long break and have published ten more since the beginning of the year. Strangely the original two stories were both written in the first person and all of my stories since then have been written in the third person close without me initially thinking about. Possibly because my first couple of protagonists were female, I decided that third was more natural as I wasn't them and it was easier for as an inexperienced writer not to write from a female perspective directly - whatever, now I've decided that I like 3rd person and assume that that's the style I'm going to write a story in unless there is a strong reason not to. (I am about to write a second person story, but it's only a short joke story but has a very specific reason why it needs to be second for the joke to work). I've also nearly completed a story where I've very conciously written in a much more distant third person - but there was a reason to do this - the characters are basically assholes and their assholeness comes through in a lot of their dialogue anyway, so close third doesn't really add anything and might require constant tutting at their behaviour.

number 2, the narrator can write in a voice and style that is independent from that of the main character. This can be very useful.

This I think is key to why I like the 3rd person more. People say the first person is easier, but I think that's only really true if you are writing a character who is essentially you and is not necessarily going to go through huge character growth during the story. To write a character well in first person, you'd have to firstly identify the idiom they speak/write in, imagine how they (not you) see everything and everyone around them, decide if the character is telling the story as it happens to them or if they are telling a past event (which they may view differently now from how they did at the time) You might also consider who they are telling the story to (dear reader) and also what the character may or may not want to reveal about the what happened. That's quite a lot, but obviously if you're just writing a 'I had sex, it was fun' story, you might not need to consider half of that.

On the other hand, writing in third allows me, as the author, to focus on the things that I want to present to the reader in order to (hopeflly) achieve the desired effect, which for me is usually vague comedic and fun. To demonstrate what I mean, I'll post the start to one of my stories.

“So, if you don’t mind me asking, what do you like to do sexually?”

For the last few minutes, Susan had been studiously moving the last few pieces of tiramisu around her plate in an attempt to avoid answering a question about her taste in movies. Carl Carl was great, but she was well aware that she was making a complete mess of this date. She’d been struggling badly enough with the small talk and then suddenly he dropped this bomb of a question like it was nothing.

“Oh, umm, well, I mean, normal stuff, you know, I mean, just, like, women tend to…” she trailed off.

Unfortunately, this did even make the top three of least coherent sentence she’d uttered this evening. What thell was wrong with her? Well, that was an easy question. She was three weeks away from her thirtieth birthday and still a virgin. That birthday was a firm deadline in her mind. She simply could not reach her thirties and still have life passing her by. This date should have been an easy fix; they’d planned it like a military operation. Why was it all going wrong? Ok, so most military operations in history hadn’t been planned at 2am over two bottles of Chardonnay and a shared tub of Haagen Dazs with Ms Mindy from grade 1, but props to Mindy, Napoleon himself couldn’t have come up with a better battle plan.

They’d written it down and broken it into stages with pros and cons and strategies, contingencies, and (because drunken primary school teachers are still primary school teachers) glitter and pipe-cleaners. After they’d finished they’d pinned it to Susan’s fridge and Mindy had even rearranged the magnet letter above it to read ‘The Time is Now’. Except this ‘now’ was rapidly becoming not the time. It was unlikely that she’d another now before life forced her to start unwrapping presents.

Carl leaned forward, and there was a pause as if he was about to say something important, but still also weighing it up in his mind. He was still the perfect deflorist. Not perfect overall, of course; good enough was what made him perfect for this one specific job. It had been a central plank of Mindy’s rambling and somewhat slurred argument that they didn’t want anyone she was going to fall head-over-heels in love with. No pining away. Nobody could pine quite like Susan, so that had been rule number one on their chart. They needed someone to do the deed with enough class and grace to make it a positive experience, but not wonderful enough to start melting hearts (“Talking of melting is there still any of that ice-cream. Yeah, right there you see, that's what we don’t want happening to your heart.”)

Rewriting this with Susan as 'I' is possible, but it would present some serious challenges, especially if I wanted to keep the light, knock-about tone. Either I'd have to write from Susan's current mental state which is a mess and full of self-doubt and not able to see the humour in the situation or else I write it from the perspective of Susan at the end of the story, who is now sexually confident and regards her former self as a bit of an embarrasment - that could work, but might spoil the ending for the reader. If I just replace Susan with 'I' but leave the tone the same, then she comes accross (hopefully) as fun and witty, which is the opposite of what she's supposed to be at that time.