Writer's Question

[BigDonGStone]

Recently I've had a story rejected for failure to include commas (and other punctuation) inside of quotation marks. As an example I would write "I wish I could create", Jim said in amazement, "a work of art such as that".

What I am being told is that the writer's convention advises that the sentence should be written "I wish I could create," Jim said in amazement, "a work of art such as that."

I have always been taught that NOTHING other than words are supposed to be inside of quotes. Quotes used to highlight a specific word or phrase, or to address the spoken word.

All 14 of my other stories were accepted with quotes used as in my first example.

I would appreciate any insight you all might have to share.

Thank you!!

 

[starrkers]

Depends on what's happening as to where the punctuation goes.

Generally speaking, the following is the correct way:

"I hate grammar," she muttered.

I heard something about "pedantic editors", so I guessed she'd been rejected.

Disclaimer: the above sentences are for illustrative purposes only and in no way are meant as a comment on the illustrious editors on this site./end grovel

 

[Seattle Zack]

Punctuation always goes inside the quotes, unless you're attempting some awkward mechanic that's a disasterous style issue, or some convoluted flashback dialogue sequence that's probably better rewritten.

Frankly, I'm surprised you got those first stories approved.

 

[BlackShanglan]

BDS, I've noticed that you didn't say where you live, so I'll offer the following with the note that it describes American rules of punctuation. I'm not sure if or how much other countries' practices may differ.

In America, it's not actually all punctuation that goes inside the quotation marks. The rules are:

Periods and commas are placed inside the quotation marks under all circumstances, including citations in which you've added them to the original material. Yes, I realize that logically this makes no sense. Unfortunately, grammar is a set of conventions that reflects how people agreed to do things rather than a logically derivable system like mathematics. Sometimes grammar isn't very logical.

Colons and semicolons are always placed outside of the quotation marks. If you are quoting a source that includes a colon or semicolon and for some reason break at that punctuation mark, you punctuate as your own sentence requires, dropping the punctuation of the original source. In other words, the colon or semicolon following a quotation is always "yours," used because it is the best way to show the relationship of the quote to the rest of the sentence.

Question marks and exclamation points are placed inside the quotation marks if they were originally part of the quote and outside of the quotation marks if they were not. For dialogue, that's an easy one; it's all one character's speech, so it all goes inside the quotation marks. If you're citing a source, however, you might turn something into a question that originally wasn't:

Why did the horse qualify its comments by calling them "American rules"?

There, the question mark goes outside of the quotation marks because the material being quoted wasn't originally a question.

 

[sr71plt]

U.S. and UK styles differ on placement of commas and periods in relation to quotes (always inside quotes in U.S. style; not always in UK style). Apparently the Web site is invoking U.S. style. If you are British (or from a former British area--other than the United States), your style wasn't incorrect--it just wasn't the style the Web site uses.

(this, then, would be an interesting example of what I was trying to get across on the OK/Okay thread--whoever publishes your material will decide what is going to be standardized in their publication of the material--and they are unlikely to take a vote on that.)

I wonder if Canada uses U.S. style or UK style on this.

 

[CopyCarver]

The horse is right...in American usage. Punctuation conventions are indeed different in the UK, Canada, Australia, and other English speaking countries.
Those who prefer the Queen's English can use it--as several of "my" authors have done, but it sometimes takes a note explaining that the alternate punctuation is intentional.

 

[snooper]

... As an example I would write "I wish I could create", Jim said in amazement, "a work of art such as that". ...

Believe me, that is also not the accepted way of punctuating in Queen's English as it is written in the UK.

Since it seems we must now quote sources to satisfy sr71plt take your pick of the UK writers at this site which has a number of well-known top authors' books available, starting with:
Jane Austen Pride and Prejudice, Emma
Arnold Bennett Grand Babylon Hotel
John Buchan The 39 Steps
Lewis Carroll Alice in Wonderland, Through the Looking Glass
Daniel Defoe Moll Flanders
Charles Dickens A Christmas Carol
Alexandre Dumas The Count of Monte Cristo
Elizabeth Gaskell Cranford, North & South
Kenneth Grahame The Wind in the Willows
H Rider Haggard King Solomon's Mines
Thomas Hardy Mayor of Casterbridge
Anthony Hope The Prisoner of Zenda
Jerome K Jerome Three Men in a Boat
Rudyard Kipling Stalky and Co.
and a number of others.

 

[cloudy]

Believe me, that is also not the accepted way of punctuating in Queen's English as it is written in the UK.

Since it seems we must now quote sources to satisfy sr71plt take your pick of the UK writers at this site which has a number of well-known top authors' books available, starting with:
Jane Austen Pride and Prejudice, Emma
Arnold Bennett Grand Babylon Hotel
John Buchan The 39 Steps
Lewis Carroll Alice in Wonderland, Through the Looking Glass
Daniel Defoe Moll Flanders
Charles Dickens A Christmas Carol
Alexandre Dumas The Count of Monte Cristo
Elizabeth Gaskell Cranford, North & South
Kenneth Grahame The Wind in the Willows
H Rider Haggard King Solomon's Mines
Thomas Hardy Mayor of Casterbridge
Anthony Hope The Prisoner of Zenda
Jerome K Jerome Three Men in a Boat
Rudyard Kipling Stalky and Co.
and a number of others.

I adore you, snooper.

 

[sr71plt]

Not quite sure the reason/justification for the unprovoked dig, Snooper--but you'll no doubt blame any backbiting on this thread on me now.

 

[starrkers]

U.S. and UK styles differ on placement of commas and periods in relation to quotes (always inside quotes in U.S. style; not always in UK style). Apparently the Web site is invoking U.S. style. If you are British (or from a former British area--other than the United States), your style wasn't incorrect--it just wasn't the style the Web site uses.

(this, then, would be an interesting example of what I was trying to get across on the OK/Okay thread--whoever publishes your material will decide what is going to be standardized in their publication of the material--and they are unlikely to take a vote on that.)

I wonder if Canada uses U.S. style or UK style on this.

I've read books published in the US, the UK and Australia and have never seen punctuation as laid out in the original post.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Punctuation always goes inside the quotes, unless you're attempting some awkward mechanic that's a disasterous style issue, or some convoluted flashback dialogue sequence that's probably better rewritten.

Frankly, I'm surprised you got those first stories approved.

I agree, my first story was rejected for having the comma's in the wrong spot for dialog.

 

[sr71plt]

"I've read books published in the US, the UK and Australia and have never seen punctuation as laid out in the original post."

Me neither, although I don't really remember how every quote mark relationship with punctuation was set up in every book I've read.

The British system of commas and periods with quotes is beyond my memory. I work almost exclusively with U.S. publishers, so it's U.S. standaradization I keep in mind. The last British publisher I worked with was Continuum in 1998, so I don't bother to keep the UK system in my head.

In my posting, I said the rendering wasn't "incorrect" only because I know the British system puts commas outside the quotes in some instances and I didn't want to claim something was wrong without looking it up. I was trying to be polite and avoid the piranhas here picking out something they could attack me on--while ignoring the point I was making (but, of course, they were determined to do that anyway).

Clearly the point of my posting was that the U.S. and UK systems of punctuation with quotation marks differ and the Web site was going with U.S. punctuation style in this case. A point that "the horse" also made right after me.

Determined to gangbang aren't you, girls?

 

[sr71plt]

"Punctuation always goes inside the quotes"

And if you people are so fair in your nit picking, why haven't you gone after Seatle Zack for this clearly incorrect sweeping statement? Not on your agenda to gangbang him this week, right?

 

[Guest]

Bunny ball ball.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

from Strunk and White, The Elements of Style (pg 36)

Typographical usage dictates that the commas be inside the (quotation) marks, though logically it seems not to belong there.

"The Fish," "Poetry," and "The Monkeys" are in Marianne Moore's Selected Poems.

 

[cloudy]

Bunny ball ball.

. .

 

[sr71plt]

"from Strunk and White, The Elements of Style (pg 36)

Typographical usage dictates that the commas be inside the (quotation) marks, though logically it seems not to belong there."

Right. Redundant (since just about everyone here has said that's the U.S. system), but right. In the U.S. system the comma goes inside the quotation mark.

(And it's equally right, as "the horse" pointed out in detail, that not all punctuation goes inside the quotation mark--even in the U.S. system.)

 

[RogueLurker]

i feel an urge to google "cute little kittens".

just out of curiousity - and because I'm too damn lazy to research it myself - I have a quick question regarding the Brits and quotations. Is it the standard in the UK to only use a single quotation mark for spoken dialog?

eg
'Egad!' he spluttered. 'That's the ugliest kitten I've ever seen.'

rather than

"Egad!" he spluttered. "That's the ugliest kitten I've ever seen."

Just curious ... I remember having a hell of a time with someone (Brit) who kept using single quotes no matter what I said or did during edits.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

i feel an urge to google "cute little kittens".

just out of curiousity - and because I'm too damn lazy to research it myself - I have a quick question regarding the Brits and quotations. Is it the standard in the UK to only use a single quotation mark for spoken dialog?

eg
'Egad!' he spluttered. 'That's the ugliest kitten I've ever seen.'

rather than

"Egad!" he spluttered. "That's the ugliest kitten I've ever seen."

Just curious ... I remember having a hell of a time with someone (Brit) who kept using single quotes no matter what I said or did during edits.

I was just reading about this very subject.

Single Quotation Marks
In the United States, we use single quotation marks [ ‘ ’ ] to enclose quoted material (or the titles of poems, stories, articles) within other quoted material:

"'Design' is my favorite poem," he said.
"Did she ask, 'What's going on?'"
Ralph Ellison recalls the Golden Age of Jazz this way: "It was itself a texture of fragments, repetitive, nervous, not fully formed; its melodic lines underground, secret and taunting; its riffs jeering—'Salt peanuts! Salt peanuts!'"
British practice, again, is quite different. In fact, single-quote marks and double-quote marks are apt to be reversed in usage. Instructors in the U.S. should probably take this into account when reading papers submitted by students who have gone to school in other parts of the globe.

 

[RogueLurker]

I was just reading about this very subject.

Single Quotation Marks
In the United States, we use single quotation marks [ ‘ ’ ] to enclose quoted material (or the titles of poems, stories, articles) within other quoted material:

"'Design' is my favorite poem," he said.
"Did she ask, 'What's going on?'"
Ralph Ellison recalls the Golden Age of Jazz this way: "It was itself a texture of fragments, repetitive, nervous, not fully formed; its melodic lines underground, secret and taunting; its riffs jeering—'Salt peanuts! Salt peanuts!'"
British practice, again, is quite different. In fact, single-quote marks and double-quote marks are apt to be reversed in usage. Instructors in the U.S. should probably take this into account when reading papers submitted by students who have gone to school in other parts of the globe.

Thanks. If I might make a suggestion - I really think you need an improvement on your reading selections. Sounds like you're having a boring night Home on the Range, drk.

 

[starrkers]

"I've read books published in the US, the UK and Australia and have never seen punctuation as laid out in the original post."

Me neither, although I don't really remember how every quote mark relationship with punctuation was set up in every book I've read.

The British system of commas and periods with quotes is beyond my memory. I work almost exclusively with U.S. publishers, so it's U.S. standaradization I keep in mind. The last British publisher I worked with was Continuum in 1998, so I don't bother to keep the UK system in my head.

In my posting, I said the rendering wasn't "incorrect" only because I know the British system puts commas outside the quotes in some instances and I didn't want to claim something was wrong without looking it up. I was trying to be polite and avoid the piranhas here picking out something they could attack me on--while ignoring the point I was making (but, of course, they were determined to do that anyway).

Clearly the point of my posting was that the U.S. and UK systems of punctuation with quotation marks differ and the Web site was going with U.S. punctuation style in this case. A point that "the horse" also made right after me.

Determined to gangbang aren't you, girls?

Sorry, mate, didn't realise this was a pissing contest.
I was merely pointing out for the original poster's benefit that, regardless of US or UK origin, his chosen form appeared incorrect.

 

[sr71plt]

"Sorry, mate, didn't realise this was a pissing contest.
I was merely pointing out for the original poster's benefit that, regardless of US or UK origin, his chosen form appeared incorrect."

Sorry if I misjudged you, then. Perhaps, though, if you hadn't quoted something I posted rather than the one you say you were addressing, I wouldn't have assumed you were talking to me. And perhaps if the piling on hadn't already started (again).

I'll be happy to think otherwise, though.

 

[BigDonGStone]

Thanking everybody who has posted and corrected my form. I do appreciate the comment that grammar is not like mathematics and doesn't always make sense.

Personally I would have a tough time hating a story because the comma was left or right of the quotation mark. Kind of falls into the category of "don't put good liquor in a mixed drink" or "ensure that the salad fork is to the left of the dinner fork." (I hope you noticed that I put the period INSIDE of the quotation mark! LOL)

That being said I will make the proper corrections before resubmitting. Again thank you all for the comments. They were most appreciated!!

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Thanking everybody who has posted and corrected my form. I do appreciate the comment that grammar is not like mathematics and doesn't always make sense.

Personally I would have a tough time hating a story because the comma was left or right of the quotation mark. Kind of falls into the category of "don't put good liquor in a mixed drink" or "ensure that the salad fork is to the left of the dinner fork." (I hope you noticed that I put the period INSIDE of the quotation mark! LOL)

That being said I will make the proper corrections before resubmitting. Again thank you all for the comments. They were most appreciated!!

Good luck with your story!

 

[starrkers]

Grammar, spelling, punctuation - if it's part of the English language you can guarantee it won't make sense!

Hope the story comes out well.