Writer thread: Form vs. content

[gauchecritic]

The whole and entire problem that people are seeing springs from the phrase "stop and consider."

I think I've said this before (obviously not strongly or lucidly enough but there are only so many ways to say the same thing) writing is learning. Reading is learning. Reading about writing is learning. Editing (yours or other's works) is learning.

Whether you understand that or whether you disagree with that is immaterial.

I write almost entirely off the top of my head. Shanglan (as a random figure and as far as I know) prepares. Jammies and RG (from what I've read in this thread) write down what they are thinking. BUT in the process, and I'll wager a hell of a lot of money on this, there isn't a single one of us that, at some point (during editing or whilst writing) doesn't look at that sentence they just put down and think That's not right

Whether they can write a dissertation on why that's not right is neither here nor there. They know it's not right. They feel it's not right. It simply doesn't look right. And here's the kicker: they know this because of the last thing they wrote.

They (and me) stopped and considered.

Evolution. Deal.

 

[lucky-E-leven]

I think gauche just summed up my thoughts on the matter quite succinctly. Thanks, g.

I will say this, though. I used to (and probably still do) stay most true to my intuition and intended direction without a great deal of planning or focus on how it might be dissected or viewed for form. However, after working with Charley on several pieces and talking back and forth through edit-type-opinion-chat, I began recognizing significance in things that I hadn't consciously noticed before as being significant. It was nice to grow a little bit in that way and it enriched my satisfaction in most things I read by giving me even more to experience as I read a piece. It's been so long since I've written anything that I'm not sure how much I would change in order to consciously create those little treats, but for those that do I appreciate it.

All that said, I'm not sure it equates to being much more than something special about her particular style. (I'm sure she'll disagree, though. )

~lucky

 

[cantdog]

gauche points to past perfect's post, so I am attempting to take it as the definition of 'form' and then to apply that to the posts of the people here who employed the term.

I'm afraid the word looks more like 'ether' or 'phlogiston' in past perfect's post than in any of the others. Ionic bonds.

We are five pages into this, and I must say, Lauren's guarantee won't work for me. Certainly I shall have form, since everyone seems to say you must (like the ether!), but I will not be able, at this point, to think about it as I write. Nor before I write, nor after. Not using that term, because I'm afraid, like the ether, it doesn't seem to be the sort of concept you can do very much with. 'Formal element' sounds promising, though; maybe it holds out hope of being a little more specific.

It is disappointing to me. Shang, gauche, Lauren, a lot of people posting here-- I know you can write pellucidly, every one of you. Without an example or some other particularity, or failing that, providing something to contrast it to, you won't create much understanding. There were charges of intellectual elitism and all that shit, but really, it has been a very baffling thread.

 

[cantdog]

*end of threadjack*

Seriously, I think the content defines which form you use.

Surely the story and characters come first and then the style/form you use follows on.

Nope. I set out to write a Wodehouse sort of farce. That was my idea. I thought, you know, sex had as much potential to drive a farce as more refined social interactions do. I adulate Wodehouse. So, in my case, no. But farce is content, they tell me. I thought of it as form, much as sonnets or triolets. A Wodehouse farce is a carefully orchestrated thing. Try it and see. I thought perhaps POV, and a couple of the posters seemed to think POV a 'formal element' whereas others not so much. No, it seems our ignorance of form leads us to make threads about POV.

So you may still be right for all of me.

 

[Liar]

No, I won't. That is not how I write. I get an idea, let it marinate in my brain for a while, sit down at the computer and type it out. That is my style of writing, and it works. I don't know why you feel the need to be contemptuous of that, but I'm not going to try to change your viewpoint. I don't think it's possible for us to communicate at all on this subject.

Just for the record what I mean with "It's inevitable for a writer to reflect on what they write" does not mean anything more than that the act of writing itself is in part a reflecting practice. I write, I see that one line sucks, I rewrite it, and I will eventually learn not to repeat the sucky line. Or I read something and think "hey that was a cool style". Next time I write, I'm inspired by what I read, and will sunconsciously adopt some of it's style into what I write. Or I do a little research on a subject I write about, and stumble over a new word I did't know. That's as far as "reflecting on what they write" have to go. And that's all I mean by it. I'm NOT talking about deliberate analysis. Just regular writing and living. We all do it. If not, we'd still write like we did in third grade.

 

[CharleyH]

Just a wee little bump.

 

[FallingToFly]

That's exactly it, Shang. I cannot begin to understand people who write, as Rob put it, without stopping to thinking about it. Every word we put down on paper, every structural element, should be a deliberate choice with a deliberate purpose. Otherwise, it's not writing. It's only a step up from monkeys typing randomly.

You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. There are still authors out there that will smile and pat you on the head for it- as you do to those not of your school of thought- and go back to counting their investments while waiting for their next royalty check.

The beauty of writing is that it is such an individual experience, and technique. I could no more write something in the style and "voice" that you excel at than you could write something of the type I excel at in my "tone".

I've always believed that to be truly great at anything, you have to be flexible, and able approach it from different angles if a problem arises. I'm sure that there are just as many excellent "linear" writers as there are of the spontaneous variety. Forgive me, however, if I prefer to read Rob's work to yours. certain voices come through much more clearly than others to me.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

The beauty of writing is that it is such an individual experience, and technique. I could no more write something in the style and "voice" that you excel at than you could write something of the type I excel at in my "tone".

This is something that's always interested me... I find myself attracted to particular writers for their "voice." (This probably deserves its own thread, rather than hijacking Charley's about form/content) I KNOW I am not as good a writer as a lot of people out there, and yet the reason I believe people like my stuff (when they do) is because of the voice I happen to write in... which is almost like a fingerprint, in some ways... it's not something I can really seem to change... even when I change POV, style, tone, it doesn't matter... that same voice comes through. I think it's true for all writers to some degree...

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I think it's true for all writers to some degree...

It's not, but it's a common symptom.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

It's not, but it's a common symptom.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

 

[Liar]

http://www.zuhaus-einkaufen.de/1/smilie/irre_smiley.gif

 

[Selena_Kitt]

http://www.zuhaus-einkaufen.de/1/smilie/irre_smiley.gif

http://www.nebo.edu/westside/Ferguson/Graphics/Animated/smiley_change_face.gif

 

[Liar]

Dontcha just lurve those intellectual writerly threads?

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Dontcha just lurve those intellectual writerly threads?

*snerk*

wish there was an :emoticon: for "snerking"

 

[kendo1]

*snerk*

wish there was an :emoticon: for "snerking"

http://www.addis-welt.de/smilie/smilie/zwerg/smurf.gif

 

[S-Des]

http://www.addis-welt.de/smilie/smilie/zwerg/smurf.gif

Now if I could just find an emoticon for 'laughing so hard I pissed on myself'

 

[kendo1]

http://www.addis-welt.de/smilie/smilie/wc/c026.gif

There's one for every occassion.