Would you/do you stop if you see genuine fear in your partners eyes?

[Mr_G]

I've never participated in sub/dom play but am curious about the mechanics of it. So my first question is this: how much fear and or pain is too much? When, if ever, as a Dom do you say to yourself "He/she looks really scared, maybe I'm going to far"? Have you subs had any experiences where you were honestly scared? How did it make you feel afterwards? Have you doms out there ever felt bad about really frightening your partner?

 

[neonflux]

I am a beginner so assume that others who are more experienced with weigh in....

Mr-G,

First, I should let you know that I am switch, with pretty equal experience as a Top and a bottom.

Regarding pain, everyone is different. What is too much pain for one person may be light weight for another. When bottoming, I would describe myself as a "full power bottom." I adore pain and can take a lot of it (I recently had a very experienced Dom who I'd never played with before ask me how many Tops i'd worn out that evening, LOL.) My primary BDSM partner (a good friend who is also switch and the only current play partner with whom I have sex) has a much lower tolerance for pain, but takes much more delight in D/s play than I. Each time I Top him, I work to challenge his pain threshhold just a tiny bit more...

Now, as to the question of fear...

While from the outside it might seem that it's the Domme who controls the interaction, and that fear is intrinsic to an S/m interaction, much of what occurs during a scene is actually up to the sub - he is the one who establishes the limits, etc. BDSM mantra - SAFE, SANE, CONSENSUAL... This begins with negotiation and a discussion of desires and boundaries (Doms have them, too. For instance, I don't enjoy either giving or receiving verbal humiliation of any kind.) Of course, limits and boundaries change over time and one of the marks of being a good Domme is to understand how to challenge Your sub's limits without breaking the trust she has in you.

I would never want to bring My sub to a point of real fear. For instance, I love doing rope bondage but my primary play partner is terrified of having both hands bound so I just don't do it. On the other hand, he loves having his genitals tied up as a form of cock and ball torture so this is part of how I get my "rope bondage desires" met when we play.

That's why we establish and use safe words - while in BDSM no! no! no! often means yes! yes! yes! safewords like yellow and red (standard at least here in San Francisco) will not be used in any other way. (The other night I was using a Wartenberg wheel to torture my partner's toes at a community-run play space in SF called the Citadel and he yelled out, "Fuck is not a safe word!" so loudly that most of those around us burst out laughing...)

The problem is, and you hit it on the head when you mentioned seeing real fear in a sub's eyes, that when people get deeply into sub space they can get to a preverbal level where they are so far gone that they can't protect themselves. This is why it's not only crucial to also have a "safe gesture," it's also crucial for the Dom to be totally atuned to His sub's body language in order to be able to take care of her.

As a relative beginner, what I am most concerned about is not causing physical trauma during M/s play but psychic trauma during D/s play - I am convinced (also bringing my experiences subbing to this question) that it is much harder for a sub to recognize and use a safe word when psychological play is involved than it is when the play is physical. Therefore, until I develop more confidence in this area as a Domme, I am forgoing heavy duty mind-play of any kind (this includes humiliation games but excludes things like predicament bondage, orgasm control/denial, worship, service, etc. which I adore)

Some great resources on this subject: "Consensual Sadomasochism" by Bill Henkin and Sybil Holiday, "The New Topping Book" by Dossie Easton and Janet W. Hardy and many of the resources in the philosophy section of the Lit BDSM library: https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?threadid=302467

Safe journeying,
~Neon

 

[Evil_Geoff]

how much fear and or pain is too much? When, if ever, as a Dom do you say to yourself "He/she looks really scared, maybe I'm going to far"? ... Have you doms out there ever felt bad about really frightening your partner?

How much is too much depends entirely on you and your partner, their head space, your head space, what you've had to eat, to drink, what (if any) mood altering substances you or they have ingested (anything from prescription meds to alcohol to illicit drugs...) there is no pat answer for "how much is too much?" It is almost always situational.

When, as a Dom, do _I_ say "He/she looks really scared, maybe I'm going to far?" In a word, never. I don't give a rat's rear end if they look scared. If they aren't afraid enough to safeword or safe-signal, I'm not stopping the scene. After all, I am a SADIST. I get off on fear and pain. If they piss themselves in terror it's all good as far as I'm concerned.

Which goes hand in hand with my thoughts on "really frightening" my partner. No, I've never felt bad about that. I've never had anyone complain or quit coming back to play with me because I scared them spitless. Like riding a terrifying roller-coaster... they come back to feed the need.

They know that I will inflict pain and stimulation short of a trip to the ER or needing a bodybag, beyond that, their tolerance is the limit.

With that said, I do check for signs of emotional and physical distress, but I don't consider "fear" to be emotional distress. I'm looking for things like anxiety or panic attacks, dis-association, etc, for things beyond "fear". I want that "coming off the top of the roller-coaster" scream...

 

[JMohegan]

Would you/do you stop if you see genuine fear in your partners eyes?

Of course not. I am a sadist. In SM play, I am trying to instill genuine fear (and pain). That's the entire point.

Feigned fear would make me stop.... and walk out the room. I absolutely despise a feigned response.

But genuine fear? My god, that's delicious. I can literally taste it on my tongue.

Have you doms out there ever felt bad about really frightening your partner?

Yes, in the beginning. It took me a long time to come to terms with my sadism. I beat myself up for years before accepting who I am, and what I do.

 

[Countryboy1981]

Like others have said... It all depends on the person.

IMHO EVERY Dom should know and understand how to read a person's body, go over safe words with thier bottoms before play, etc.

Like the sub I'm playing with right now she's "new" to it all. She's loved the idea for a long time but never done it before, so I'm having to work in steps so to speak with her, and watch her body, and eyes more so than with bottoms that's been doing it for awhile.

The look of fear in her face does not make me stop, cause that's part of the whole game but as a Dom you just have to know how to read the diff in your bottom's good pain and the real, bad pain. At times just think common sence too. Like this new sud of mine well sometimes she want's more, but I know if I give her more pain it will be more than she can handle and will be/get really hurt.

 

[neonflux]

To JMohegan from an inquiring mind...

If I read your post right, it sounds like you didn't start at the point you're at now... When and how did it change?

I do get what you're saying about fear - I have recently discovered a penchant for knife play, both giving and receiving - and it definitely involves fear. Do you then differentiate between fear and panic? When I first tied both of my friend's hands, he almost stopped breathing... Have you ever gotten someone to the point where you knew that she or he couldn't respond with a safe word or gesture and so could no longer give consent? If so, how did you know and what did you do?

Also, how far do you get into psychological play and mind-fuck? Do you have different standards or approach it in the same way? I know people that are completely turned on by utterly breaking down a sub. On the other hand, one of my close friends with over 20 years as a Leatherman recently told me a story of spending 3 days to rebuild a young man's sense of self after psychological play went too far, not at his hands but at those of a very experienced Dom who didn't realize until too late what had occured. (This is now one of my great concerns...)

From a clear and inquiring newbie who's trying to figure it all out...
Neon

Of course not. I am a sadist. In SM play, I am trying to instill genuine fear (and pain). That's the entire point.

Feigned fear would make me stop.... and walk out the room. I absolutely despise a feigned response.

But genuine fear? My god, that's delicious. I can literally taste it on my tongue.

Yes, in the beginning. It took me a long time to come to terms with my sadism. I beat myself up for years before accepting who I am, and what I do.

 

[BeachGurl2]

I'm not sure how much my input counts as a sub, but I'll wade in here. Yes, there have been times when I've been truly frightened. And my level of pain is higher than many, less than others. My level of pain also depends on the activity, the mood, where I am in my cycle, what I've eaten, etc. The same could be said of my level of fear.

No matter how much trust there is between you and your partner, what you are doing is dangerous. So there is always a level of fear, real fear, not feigned fear. But as has been mentioned, that's also a part of why you do what you do.

I've been told that I have amazingly expressive eyes. I also enjoy breath play. I had a Dom tell me that the most rewarding times for him with me were when he saw the fear in my eyes while he was choking me. Had he stopped, it would have ruined the scene for both of us. Because while my fear was very real, it also increased the sensations for both of us. And we both came away with exactly what we wanted.

I was also afraid when I bungee jumped. Heart in my throat, too afraid to scream, scared out of my wits. But that was the fun of it.

 

[JMohegan]

If I read your post right, it sounds like you didn't start at the point you're at now... When and how did it change?

Generally speaking, two things helped me accept myself as a sadist.

1 - Thinking carefully about rules & boundaries I establish for myself, and never letting myself cross them.

2 - Having partners who accepted me as I am, and thrived in our relationships overall. Clearly happy, satisfied, etc.

I do get what you're saying about fear - I have recently discovered a penchant for knife play, both giving and receiving - and it definitely involves fear. Do you then differentiate between fear and panic?

Yes, of course.

Have you ever gotten someone to the point where you knew that she or he couldn't respond with a safe word or gesture and so could no longer give consent? If so, how did you know and what did you do?

I have stopped, many times, because I felt it was in the best interest of my partner (and our relationship) to do so.

How did I "know" it was time to stop? Paying attention to facial expression, breathing, skin color, etc.

I have never relied on the safeword as a reliable signal for when to stop. That is to say, I have *always* honored the safeword, but in my experience there have been many, many times when stopping before she cried Red was the right thing to do.

Also, how far do you get into psychological play and mind-fuck? Do you have different standards or approach it in the same way? I know people that are completely turned on by utterly breaking down a sub.

Per the commonly accepted use of the phrase, I would say that I am not interested in psychological play or mindfucks. Nor am I into humiliation. And the appeal of "utterly breaking down a sub" is something that I truly do not understand.

I should note that SM play, for me, is part of a very private, monogamous, personal relationship with an SO. I do not play in clubs or at parties, and I don't share my partner or play with any others.

One aim of SM play is to get off, that's true. But I invest an enormous amount of time and energy establishing trust and mental intimacy in such a relationship. So having my partner stick around - physically and emotionally happy & healthy - is an even more important goal.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Have to say it doesn't stop F. If anything it just heightens the experience a notch or ten for him.

Catalina

 

[neonflux]

Per the commonly accepted use of the phrase, I would say that I am not interested in psychological play or mindfucks. Nor am I into humiliation. And the appeal of "utterly breaking down a sub" is something that I truly do not understand.

... I invest an enormous amount of time and energy establishing trust and mental intimacy in such a relationship. So having my partner stick around - physically and emotionally happy & healthy - is an even more important goal.

Re: psychological play - it's interesting. Didn't think I'd ever enjoy psychological play beyond worship, predicament bondage, and service. Just recently took a weekend intensive for Dominant/switch women taught by two amazing Pro Dommes who spent a great deal of time on ethical, psychological and spiritual considerations, as well as safety of BDSM. I'm not interested in "mind fuck" and can't successfully engage in verbal humiliation (tried with my partner because he thought he'd like it and it was a disaster for both of us - not dangerous or unsafe, just didn't work as its in neither of our natures).

However, changed my mind about a number of things during the intensive. Got to know two people (one male sub and a woman switch) who get a great deal of emotional satisfaction from "animal" role play, including being leashed and bridled. There was a discussion of humiliation play that actually turned on both the sub and Domme in me - the instructors made a distinction between degradation (psychologically harmful) and humiliation - which by their definition is based on negotiation and in which the sub is directed to do things s/he actually finds erotic but hasn't ever done due to embarrassment. (My partner and I are now discussing exploration of same.)

Also became close friends with a lesbian couple that has been together for 22 years, into BDSM for 18 of those, and in an official Mistress/slave relationship for 4 which was very satisfying for both - it became clear to me that the Dominant partner actually protected and nurtered her slave within this framework. For instance, the sub was very shy and felt safe with others being required to ask the Mistress to speak to her, give her a hug, etc. The Dominant partner always asked her lover what the lover wanted and based the decision on her slave's desires...

BTW, I loved what you said about ensuring that your partner is happy and healthy...

Neon

 

[O'Mac]

Hmmmmm, tough question. I'd say no. Not until I hear a safeword would I stop. Personally I haven't seen a look that was expressed as terror or real worry for one's safety as yet. But I think if it were to happen it would only serve to increase my pleasure. I wouldn't consider myself overly sadistic, but I do like to manipulate my sub's feelings and emotions during a session. Just not to an extent that the fear is enough to call out the safeword.

 

[onyxvixen]

I have had a sub who was visibly searching for her safeword, couldn't remember it until I asked her, "Red?"

"Yes! Red! Red!" She replied with relief.

I do use 'red' and 'yellow' as questions if I'm unsure. So far though, I've been able to tell when a sub really isn't enjoying or tolerating something. I dominate for mutual enjoyment and have no desire to push a sub into something I know she doesn't want to do. I say this only because I saw this happen on one occasion and it was truly ugly.

That said, I do indulge myself with the occasional mindfuck. For example, suggesting something that I know a sub deeply dislikes and then switching to something else at the last second - at the point of real fear - which the sub enjoys because she trusts me. If I'm going for real fear I generally don't prolong that fear in a sub for very long.

That said, a D/s interaction is a partnership. She trusts me to honour the safewords but I also have to trust her to use them in the first place. There has to be an equal split of responsibility, regardless of who's topping. It's not possible to judge right all the time, every step of the way and both partners must acknowledge that right at the start. I can only do my best and I will but telepathy is not one of my life skills.

 

[myinnerslut]

as a sub, i think i would use my safeword if it got to genuine terror... as long as i could remeber it. i would hope that my Sir would recognize the signs of terror becuase in situations like that i freeze up and my mind starts to unravel, but i cant call out my safeword, or anything else. i had a very scary experience as a child, and while pain is all well and good, sit me in front of a horror movie and i will in an absolute blind panic by the time the opening credits are over

 

[Netzach]

I actually prefer loathing to fear. Fear is really kind of unpredictable, and doesn't sit well with my control freak nature. Loathing is much more easy to trace and I can decide how far I want to force my hand with less unpredictable result, if that makes sense.

 

[Trinique_Fire]

What happens if the real fear has more to do with being mocked or abandoned after the fact? Even in the tamest of situations. That's not to say I didn't trust my Domme. I did on some level, but I had just come out of a bad situation. W/we tried and tried and eventually there was just no more room or patience to try any more.

At what point would you give up? Would you give up? Or would you keep working with your sub to help him/her reach the point where they are comfortable and can just let go and understand that you aren't going to hurt them emotionally? I hope my explanation and questions were clear enough...

 

[JMohegan]

What happens if the real fear has more to do with being mocked or abandoned after the fact? Even in the tamest of situations. That's not to say I didn't trust my Domme. I did on some level, but I had just come out of a bad situation. W/we tried and tried and eventually there was just no more room or patience to try any more.

At what point would you give up? Would you give up? Or would you keep working with your sub to help him/her reach the point where they are comfortable and can just let go and understand that you aren't going to hurt them emotionally? I hope my explanation and questions were clear enough...

This is a difficult question to answer, since each case would be unique.

As a general response, however, I would say that if my best efforts to instill trust failed, then I would encourage my partner to seek the aid of a professional to overcome the impact of her prior trauma.

Some issues I am qualified to address or capable of dealing with, but some I am just not.

 

[neonflux]

I would always want to make sure that my sub felt safe before anything else. If this meant taking things very slow, and spending 2 or 3x as long in aftercare (just as important for me when I Top as when i bottom), then that's what I'd do... I expect that this is different for others. Then again, while it doesn't have to be a "romantic" relationship, I doen't really enjoy playing with someone unless I love them deeply on some level - it's just too intimate an experience for me, much more so than vanilla sex, even when there is no exchange of fluids/real sexual activity...

I'm sorry that your Domme didn't have it in her to give you the time that you needed. It was a lack in her, not you. You (all of us) deserve so much more...

Neon

What happens if the real fear has more to do with being mocked or abandoned after the fact? Even in the tamest of situations. That's not to say I didn't trust my Domme. I did on some level, but I had just come out of a bad situation. W/we tried and tried and eventually there was just no more room or patience to try any more.

At what point would you give up? Would you give up? Or would you keep working with your sub to help him/her reach the point where they are comfortable and can just let go and understand that you aren't going to hurt them emotionally? I hope my explanation and questions were clear enough...

 

[Netzach]

I think it's premature to draw conclusions about whether that Domme was good or bad, rather chalk it up to incompatibilities. I'm a patient person, however I'm not able to help all people with all things, and I can see myself reaching the end of my rope on certain activities and scenes and things that I need to feel sane.

We're all here to have our needs met, and we're not all able to suit one another.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I was sitting on the bed, naked with the sheets up to my neck and remember seeing him come around the bed and the look in his eyes scared me shitless. I pulled the sheets up to just under my eyes because I KNEW he was about to hit me... he was that angry.

I've never been hit before and he didn't hit me. But I knew for an instant that he wanted to. And he could've laid me out, very easily.

Yea, that was a scary deal and waaaaay off topic. It's just that everytime I see this thread title it reminds me of that episode.

 

[neonflux]

I would never suggest...

I think it's premature to draw conclusions about whether that Domme was good or bad, rather chalk it up to incompatibilities. I'm a patient person, however I'm not able to help all people with all things, and I can see myself reaching the end of my rope on certain activities and scenes and things that I need to feel sane.

We're all here to have our needs met, and we're not all able to suit one another.

I perhaps didn't express myself corrctly. I would never suggest that any person is good or bad, either as a Dom/me or a human being. As you suggest, it could have been incompatibilities. However, I do think some of us have more patience than others, and that it is a skill one can develop, rather than a character trait. I've found that the older I get, the more I have, at least with the people I care about and that my life is richer for it... Bigotry, meanness (except in play, LOL), etc. - well, those are different matters.

Neon

 

[RJMasters]

blindfold

 

[onyxvixen]

blindfold

ROFL

Wonderful RJ, end of problem and the work of an instant

 

[ownedsubgal]

I've never participated in sub/dom play but am curious about the mechanics of it. So my first question is this: how much fear and or pain is too much? When, if ever, as a Dom do you say to yourself "He/she looks really scared, maybe I'm going to far"? Have you subs had any experiences where you were honestly scared? How did it make you feel afterwards? Have you doms out there ever felt bad about really frightening your partner?

yes i've had many times where i've been genuinely terrified of my Master. most have been times when he was angry with me. i fear him then because i know he will make me suffer, and suffer greatly (primarily in a physical way). but there are other times...when he goes thru these "phases" as he calls them, when he's in extreme-perv mode, and has the need to subject me to extreme things. i fear him at these times because i know that he has temporarily clicked off the safety and there is no limit to what he will allow himself to do.

fear for us is a natural and healthy thing...if i did not truly fear him, our bond would not be as solid and the relationship would just not be effective. it is in great part due to my fear of him that i revere and worship him so.

 

[shy slave]

Hi OSG, good to see you posting

I have never, ever been frightened of Andante, nor of any of my ex's (my first husband hit me in an abusive manner but can't really say I was terrified of him, he was just a young man under a great deal of stress and handling it badly).

I have seen Andante in a terrible temper, and he has seen me in the same mood. But at no point did I think he would hurt me physically, regardless of whose temper was aflame.
He could easily of hurt me in an attempt to calm me down.

I am naive enough to believe that words hurt more than anything physical.

Would he stop if he saw fear in my eyes?
He should answer that, but I would not doubt for one second that he would if the fear was unexpected.

By that I mean if we had not discussed pushing bounderies etc.
I am terrified of masks and blindfolds, yet I have trusted him to blindfold me for a few seconds. He must have seen fear in my eyes but I wanted him to do it. It was a big hurdle for me, had he stopped I would have hated myself.

 

[VoteForMe]

I've never participated in sub/dom play but am curious about the mechanics of it. So my first question is this: how much fear and or pain is too much? When, if ever, as a Dom do you say to yourself "He/she looks really scared, maybe I'm going to far"? Have you subs had any experiences where you were honestly scared? How did it make you feel afterwards? Have you doms out there ever felt bad about really frightening your partner?

Did you see my press conference? How much scarier can it get?