Would this story be allowed?

[filthytrancendence]

Jesus. I step away for a few hours and this thread has like 4 more pages. I wrote a whole thing earlier about your deeply dishonest rhetoric @WCSGarland, and decided not to post it because I couldn't imagine you'd still be digging this hole 10 hours and 20 posts later. But here we are.

Well, like 5 pages ago on this thread, @AwkwardlySet posted a helpful graphic:



At the time I went through and clipped like 8 of your posts and carefully explained all the layers of euphemistic language you've been using to avoid answering the only question that's been asked: why do men who enjoy rape fantasies enjoy rape fantasies?

You've also engaged in advantageous comparison, ad nauseam at this point.

As Frances pointed out, a lot of your euphemism amounts to a gish gallop. You're throwing so much nonsense at the wall it's impossible to even keep up.

But to me, the most damning strategy you've employed nearly this whole time is a Motte and Bailey.

Your Motte is "I'm trying to explain what non-consent means and nobody is listening!" and the Bailey is rape.

My dude. Nobody here is confused about what non-consent means. Never have been. YOU are FORCING the confusion in order to avoid answering a question nobody is forcing you to keep denying an answer to. And continually, over and over, pretending like you're some kind of martyr to the cause of explaining to all the idiot AHers what the concept of non-consent means.

Stop. The moral disengagement is bad enough. You're also running down the list of the worst bad-faith rhetorical tactics to boot. And for what? You look silly. You're just continuing to make yourself look sillier the longer you keep doing this. You had the opportunity to quit while you were pretty far behind more than 24 hours ago when I was playing with your excessive hostility. The hole you've dug is nearly to the mantle now. Maybe if you quit now, somebody can find a rope ladder long enough to get you out, eventually.

 

[TheLobster]

Jesus. I step away for a few hours and this thread has like 4 more pages.

I know, right? But you know what’s most disappointing?

Every post there has failed to consider that maybe what we all call “consensual sex” is actually noncon as well

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I think I agree with you, but I'm not sure.

Let's consider a few specific examples:

Sam threatens Julie with revealing to the public something about her past that could threaten her job or her marriage, unless she masturbates in front of him. Masturbation is not 2-person sex, but this would still be a nonconsensual "sex act" wouldn't it? Wouldn't it belong in noncon?

Sam threatens Julie with the same, but this time he wants her to walk naked in public. I could see this as Ex & Voy, but it might also qualify as a nonconsent story depending on how it was written.

Neither example is non-con nor rape. There are two reasons for that.

Both are cases of blackmail where the victim still has a meaningful choice. Non-con/rape happens when the victim is physically restrained or overpowered so the choice is taken away from them, or when the threat is so big that there isn't really a choice, such as a threat to their life or the life of their loved ones, the threat of serious torture or disfigurement, etc. In both of the examples, the victim has something to lose, but there's still a meaningful choice. It's blackmail, and as a Literotica story, it would probably fall into the Reluctance category.

The second reason is the fact that there isn't any sexual intercourse. That's especially obvious in the example of public nudity. It's a humiliation scenario.
The other example is trickier from the standpoint of sex. The way I see it, if the blackmailer was using their fingers on the victim, then it's sex, but if the victim is masturbating, then it's a bit different. It's an interesting example, no doubt, but it's still Reluctance rather than non-con, all because the choice is still meaningful. Losing the job or some extra-marital affair facts coming into light, while stressful, aren't something that takes away choice.

 

[SimonDoom]

It's an interesting example, no doubt, but it's still Reluctance rather than non-con, all because the choice is still meaningful. Losing the job or some extra-marital affair facts coming into light, while stressful, aren't something that takes away choice.

This is a debate that I suspect would draw a variety of different perspectives. I see the point, but I don't entirely agree. I see reluctance and non-con as being on a spectrum rather than being categorically different. I'm also not sure that the existence of "choice," in some sense, necessarily negates the non-con. If A points a gun at B and says, let me have sex with you or I shoot you, we all agree that's non-con. But if A says to B, let me have sex with you or I publish the porn pictures you made 10 years ago and ruin your job and family, you're saying that's NOT non-con. I think it is. There's choice, in a sense, but it's so compromised that it's not truly consensual. And it's definitely immoral and illegal. I suspect, depending on how such a story was written, many readers would see it, and enjoy it, as a non-con story. There are plenty of examples of blackmail stories in non-con so I think there's some evidence that supports me on that. But we can all have our own personal perspectives on what's what.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Non-con/rape happens when the victim is physically restrained or overpowered so the choice is taken away from them, or when the threat is so big that there isn't really a choice, such as a threat to their life or the life of their loved ones, the threat of serious torture or disfigurement, etc. In both of the examples, the victim has something to lose, but there's still a meaningful choice. It's blackmail, and as a Literotica story, it would probably fall into the Reluctance category.

I have one in notes that may come as close as possible to the non-con/con angle.

Lady exec in her office late after work is attacked and violated. Seems non-con to that point because the reader doesn't know otherwise.

After it's done and the attacker is about to leave, she hands him an envelope with a check. It's revealed to be an initiation fee to a special club where people can live out fantasies and the attack was arranged as part of her induction.

 

[TheLobster]

I have one in notes that may come as close as possible to the non-con/con angle.

Lady exec in her office late after work is attacked and violated. Seems non-con to that point because the reader doesn't know otherwise.

After it's done and the attacker is about to leave, she hands him an envelope with a check. It's revealed to be an initiation fee to a special club where people can live out fantasies and the attack was arranged as part of her induction.

If it was agreed beforehand, this is pretty clearly CNC.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

This is a debate that I suspect would draw a variety of different perspectives. I see the point, but I don't entirely agree. I see reluctance and non-con as being on a spectrum rather than being categorically different. I'm also not sure that the existence of "choice," in some sense, necessarily negates the non-con. If A points a gun at B and says, let me have sex with you or I shoot you, we all agree that's non-con. But if A says to B, let me have sex with you or I publish the porn pictures you made 10 years ago and ruin your job and family, you're saying that's NOT non-con. I think it is. There's choice, in a sense, but it's so compromised that it's not truly consensual. And it's definitely immoral and illegal. I suspect, depending on how such a story was written, many readers would see it, and enjoy it, as a non-con story. There are plenty of examples of blackmail stories in non-con so I think there's some evidence that supports me on that. But we can all have our own personal perspectives on what's what.

I'll agree that there is a significant gray area between the stories that obviously fall into reluctance or the non-con category. It's not always easy or even possible to tell which is which. My criterion was 'meaningful choice' but I understand that it doesn't mean the same for everyone. And yes, I agree that readers will likely disagree among themselves whether some story truly is non-con or not.

Still, some criteria must exist, otherwise it's not possible to rationally discuss these things at all.

 

[FrancesScott]

So, quite a few people seem OK to analyze and post about their reasons for liking Incest here without getting their panties in a bunch:

https://forum.literotica.com/thread...ing-about-them-to-you.1636949/#post-101240166

 

[SimonDoom]

So, quite a few people seem OK to analyze and post about their reasons for liking Incest here without getting their panties in a bunch:

https://forum.literotica.com/thread...ing-about-them-to-you.1636949/#post-101240166

I don't see people here getting their panties in a bunch about this. I see an absence of people who like, or admit to liking, fantasy stories about raping people (as opposed to about being raped from the victim's point of view). I'm not sure anybody who has participated in this thread so far fits that bill.

 

[FrancesScott]

I don't see people here getting their panties in a bunch about this.

Maybe using a plural noun was exaggerative.

 

[FrancesScott]

I know, right? But you know what’s most disappointing?

Every post there has failed to consider that maybe what we all call “consensual sex” is actually noncon as well

View attachment 2552897

I keep thinking I need to write an MFM scene involving Jesus. Maybe an MMF even.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

So, quite a few people seem OK to analyze and post about their reasons for liking Incest here without getting their panties in a bunch:

https://forum.literotica.com/thread...ing-about-them-to-you.1636949/#post-101240166

I managed to stay out of this threat for a while, but this actually made me roll my eyes.

Of course they are able to have that discussion. The Literotica incest-crowd isn't met with the same stigma as the NC/R-crowd. I mean, just look back at the first two or three pages of this thread. The whole discussion went instantly into the "Why do you ENJOY RAPING WOMEN?" category.

You want to know the psychology behind this? It's not that complicated. There are mainly three types:
1. The sadists who derive pleasure from other people's pain
2. The psychopaths who can't emphasize with their victims and only care about their own fun
3. ...the absolute majority that simply enjoys dwelling in safe fantasies, where nobody gets hurt or damaged, because they know that characters in a fictional story aren't sentient beings.

And as to why do they dwell in those fantasies in the first place? Well, again, either they are sadists, or the same mechanism as with the Purge come into play: Doing outrageous shit can be extremely exciting. Especially if you don't have to worry about consequences, or feel bad about what you're doing (because, again, the characters aren't real).

Maybe, if you asked the LW authors, "Why do you enjoy writing unwilling cuckolding stories" instead, the answers could illustrate it better.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Maybe, if you asked the LW authors, "Why do you enjoy writing unwilling cuckolding stories" instead, the answers could illustrate it better.

Unfortunately, those are quite common in real life.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

That’s a big claim unless you have more than just sense to back it up.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/why-are-so-many-women-searching-for-ultra-violent-porn/

"While men still search for significantly more porn than women, search rates for these more extreme types of sexual content are at least twice as common among women than men."

There actually have been quite a few studies done on the subject ever since Fifty Shades of Grey happened and had the media baffled, like this one or this one.

 

[AG31]

I don't see people here getting their panties in a bunch about this. I see an absence of people who like, or admit to liking, fantasy stories about raping people (as opposed to about being raped from the victim's point of view). I'm not sure anybody who has participated in this thread so far fits that bill.

Yes. Do they even exist? I was hoping to get some insight given the OP and @FrancesScott's very interesting hi-jacking. But no luck. The energetic debate about debate practices has been interesting, though.

 

[TallManReinvented]

The story I'm writing would be a non-consent story. The content guidelines say that non-consent stories where the person receives no enjoyment from it aren't allowed. In my story, the character would end up orgasming, but against her own will. Her body would betray her. Would that be ok? Because she did enjoy it, even if she didn't want to.

Check out my story https://www.literotica.com/s/pams-lost-hours-at-the-shopping-centre, which includes exactly the kind of scenario you mention, including non-consent. It passed the test and was published.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Can you help me, please? Why do you want to write a story like that? What is appealing to you about it? I’m not looking to bust your balls, just to understand the attraction of writing non-consensual sex. I have to admit that I just don’t get it.

I write a fair bit in that category. Mainly becasue my basic theme was judicial slavery. Even though my stories don't have a lot of overt sex in them Reluctance is a theme. I find it better in some ways than BDSM. It can be a catch-all category for anything where the person is not avidly on board what is happening.

 

[WCSGarland]

I write a fair bit in that category. Mainly becasue my basic theme was judicial slavery. Even though my stories don't have a lot of overt sex in them Reluctance is a theme. I find it better in some ways than BDSM. It can be a catch-all category for anything where the person is not avidly on board what is happening.

Not according to the critics in this thread. It can only ever be about raping women.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Demands are in the eye of the beholder.

I saw her request ( I assume female) as reasonable. I have written in several categories. Some stories can slide from one genre to another. I personally do not care for touchy feeling romance. When I see 'yes, my beloved cream-puff' I shut down. (almost as fast as licking feet). But reluctant sex or maybe edgy. or maybe semi forced kink, can fit nicely in non consent.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Not according to the critics in this thread. It can only ever be about raping women.

Yea, like some think LW is only about cuck vs total earth scorching BTB's

 

[Gamblnluck]

In my limited experience, BDSM is highly consensual IRL. Not so much in fantasies written by people with zero actual experience of the area.

As it should in real life. Otherwise it is a CRIME. But a 'fall down the rabbit hole scenario' is equally feasible. By that I mean someone finds themselves in a situation where it overwhelms them. I have stores like that in bdsm and non-consent.

 

[tony_gunk]

Thanks to everyone who answered my original question lol.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Hey, Tony found his way back through the gunk!

 

[tony_gunk]

Can you help me, please? Why do you want to write a story like that? What is appealing to you about it? I’m not looking to bust your balls, just to understand the attraction of writing non-consensual sex. I have to admit that I just don’t get it.

Why do people like the Sopranos so much, or other movies about gangsters? Part of it is that it's a well-written and well-acted show. But there's also another thing: many of us, deep down, are fascinated by the idea of living outside the rules. Of being able to do bad things and get away with it. We empathize with the gangsters, and there's a part of us that thinks it would be cool to be a gangster. It's a natural human impulse. We're complicated. There's a part of us that WANTS TO BE BAD. Fantasy, especially erotic fantasy, provides a needed outlet for these desires, an outlet where no real people get hurt.

There is an age-old dynamic between men and women where the man is the pursuer and the woman is the pursued. Or, if you want to go a step further and use edgier terms, the man is the predator and the woman is the prey. Thinking that way may seem objectionable, and acting on it in the real world often WILL be objectionable, but these impulses are there, nevertheless, and it's not surprising that in the fantasy realm some people take these impulses to extremes. Women fantasize about being raped and men fantasize about raping. And vice versa, to some extent.

This explains it better than I probably could.

 

[tony_gunk]

Hey, Tony found his way back through the gunk!

Haha.