Worthless Diplomas

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Are college diplomas the engine that drives job outsourcing?

A century ago students attended college to be trained as engineers, physicians, teachers, lawyers, and clergy. But now you can get a diploma in virtually whatever discipline you can imagine. And everyone bitches they cant find work related to their education.

I suspect a sheepskin gives most people an inflated sense of their economic worth, and theyre frustrated and disappointed when they're forced to settle for much less than they expected.

My town lost 27,000 jobs in the last year. The value of homes dropped 20%. Walk into any WAL-MART and the place is virtually empty. In 2005 WAL-MART was filled to capacity with shoppers. Our WAL-MART cut its staff from 700 people to 350, and most of these workers are part-time with no benefits. Local government is taking a beating in terms of tax revenues. People spend their money for non-taxable food, medicine, and professional services (lawyers and counselors and such arent taxed). So little money flows into the local treasury.

My town's schools need to lose 16 Million dollars worth of expenses. The teachers all say theyre gonna quit and get good jobs if they dont get a contract with pay raises. The average teacher here makes 40K with no-cost health insurance. That is, medical insurance for them and their kids is free. But they say they arent gonna take it anymore, and theyre gonna leave for better jobs. They dont say what these better jobs are. Everyone I know with a degree in sociology and psychology and womens studies wants a gig at the school.

 

[oggbashan]

I can't find much use for my diplomas for:

Firefighting at sea under Nuclear/Biological Attack.

Resupplying submarines at sea.

Preparedness for nuclear war.

Surf-Lifesaving line, board and boat.

Escape from a helicopter ditched at sea during daylight, darkness, and sunk 15 metres.

Master Programmer IBM 1401 Punch Card System - mainframe, card sorter, card punch.

Combination and keyed safe breaking.

All they (and the other certificates) prove is that my employers expected me to do almost anything... And all of them are obsolete.

Og

PS. More recent certificates are for:

Innovative performance of poetry on stage

Start-up procedures for community businesses

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

OGG

If I ruled the world I'd guarantee that every child left school literate and functionally competent in math and general business applications. They could then earn a real professional diploma in engineering or medicine or education or law. Or have a career in business or the military with collateral coursework related to the military or business or agriculture or whatever.

 

[sr71plt]

All of my sheepskins have paid off. Suspect that's a generational thing (including the relative costs of what's behind the sheepskins). More remarkably, I did in life what I was trained to do in the diploma pipeline. No complaints.

 

[oggbashan]

OGG

If I ruled the world I'd guarantee that every child left school literate and functionally competent in math and general business applications.

In the UK we now have a mandatory National Curriculum that is supposed to ensure that every child has a basic competence in a range of subjects.

In my opinion all it has done is introduce layers of testing that prove nothing except the system is failing. The pupils are trained to pass the tests but even then many don't.

Now our government has just set nearly 100 targets for the under-fives to achieve before they start the main school system yet nearby European states that don't start formal schooling until age 7 are outperforming our kids by age 11.

Og

PS. All my certificates listed above were issued by the then competent examining body. Why?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SR71PLT

Yes, some diplomas are very saleable, but many are not. I'm thinking of BA degrees in almost all of the social sciences.

OGG

Basic literacy and competence in math are not rocket science. A vocabulary of the most common words will suffice 98% of the time; that is, knowing 3000 common words does the work virtually always.

 

[Liar]

The problem with the "softer" college diciplines, is that there is no specific path to a specific profession going straight from them. They leave you with a skillset that can be applied and is useful in many different areas, but most of the time you also need specific profession skills on top of that.

I have a Master's degree in social rethorics. Typical "wishy-washy social science". There is no "rhetor" jobs out there. But there are many jobs where it is an asset, where good rhethoric knowledge and skills improves your work and makes you advance faster. I used to be stuck editing local news and copy-pasting Reuters telegrams. These days I write the big features, do copywriting jobs, have my own column and make twice what I used to. Because my new education helped me do the same job that I did, a helluva lot better. Not writing per se, but understanding the needs and reactions of my target audience.

But you still have to begin on the factory floor. Or proverbial equivalence, in your line of business. That's what people don't get. Those degrees are wothless as badges of merit and entitlement, but the knowledge that came with them can be priceless when you apply them to your line of work. The most successful mechanic engineer I ever met has a solid technical education, of course, but also a degree in applied philosophy.

 

[R. Richard]

From what I have read, the idea that a college diploma had any relevance to the working world was established back in the days of the great depression of the thirties. Up until that time, college and the working world were supposedly pretty much disconnected.

In the midst of the great depression, a factory would need someone to sweep the floor. They would advertise for a floor sweeper and get a hundred applicants and more. They didn't have the time to interview 100+ applicants. Thus,some worthy was dispatched to tell the gathered throng that only those with high school diplomas would be considered. That cut the number of applicants down to, say 40 [this was the thirties.] Then only applicants who had 'some college' would be considered. That cut the number of applicants down to, say 12. Then only applicants who had a college degree would be considered. That cut the number of applicants down to, say 2. They would then interview the two college graduates to hire one floor sweeper.

 

[sr71plt]

SR71PLT

Yes, some diplomas are very saleable, but many are not. I'm thinking of BA degrees in almost all of the social sciences.

My BA was in international relations (a social science). Sent (with the help of two supporting masters degrees) me all over the world living well, thanks to your taxes.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

From what I have read, the idea that a college diploma had any relevance to the working world was established back in the days of the great depression of the thirties. Up until that time, college and the working world were supposedly pretty much disconnected.

In the midst of the great depression, a factory would need someone to sweep the floor. They would advertise for a floor sweeper and get a hundred applicants and more. They didn't have the time to interview 100+ applicants. Thus,some worthy was dispatched to tell the gathered throng that only those with high school diplomas would be considered. That cut the number of applicants down to, say 40 [this was the thirties.] Then only applicants who had 'some college' would be considered. That cut the number of applicants down to, say 12. Then only applicants who had a college degree would be considered. That cut the number of applicants down to, say 2. They would then interview the two college graduates to hire one floor sweeper.

I have only an Associate Degree, and in Liberal Arts/Humanities. Some of the people I work with (a rare few, mind you) probably couldn't pass a GED test at this point. I was hired through a temp service, in the "interview," which is mostly just them meeting you, giving you a once over to see if they can send you anywhere without embarassing themselves, I was, however asked why I wanted the job I went to see about.

It does have some relevance at the lower levels of the job market, but I would guess the rags to riches theory is most likely rare in terms of basic formal education. It propbably requires some major study with exceptional grades to get anywhere through an interviewing system, or some major talent that might require specific training but not necessarily degree oriented education, like Art Instruction of something of that sort.

I will say this: Knowing several people who live in the enclosed box that non-education tends to create (mentally, of course) the education I received has added notable interests and thinking capabilities I would hate to go without. I believe the problem is that when it comes to education, we focus on money instead of enlightenment. The two don't always balance out in terms of importance the way we might think they would. Money can't buy happiness, afterall.

Q_C

 

[R. Richard]

Money can't buy happiness, afterall.

Q_C

True, but money can buy the holder a comfortable existence, even if the holder is unhappy.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Pieces of paper are meaningless - generally.

I have the full set of cards and all that does is open a door. After that you're on your own to live by your wits.

We don't teach each generation that higher expectations of living standards have to go hand in hand with higher skills. Forget the certificates that signify little, stop many kids being conned into wasting their time with irrelevant tertiary education and get them into work and training at 18 that will keep them above the competing global hordes.

Try Bombay's IT training and the effect it has had on young people's success.

 

[CharleyH]

Are college diplomas the engine that drives job outsourcing?

A century ago students attended college to be trained as engineers, physicians, teachers, lawyers, and clergy. But now you can get a diploma in virtually whatever discipline you can imagine. And everyone bitches they cant find work related to their education.

I know you Americans have odd concepts of College and University, but I will say this to the best of my Canadian knowledge. College? Yeah, if you can't get into Uni, you go there. If you want a job, you have a University education. Of course, a B.A. in Canada is worthless now. A B.A. is dime a dozen. An M.A? PhD? Well, why start at the bottom?

 

[chris 44]

Oh Dear!

I thought this subject was on 'Worthless Diplomats', but then realised this was far too large a matter to be covered on here...

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

R.RICHARD

It was said to me many years ago that a degree serves 2 purposes: It reduces the flood of applicants to a trickle (as you say) and it's evidence the applicant can finish a project.

But since, oh!, 1980 diplomas are used mostly as union cards to many vocations. If your diploma isnt exactly one thing or another you cant qualify for the position. Social Workers are bad about this. They influence legislators to restrict applicants to MSW or BSW degree holders, but refuse the jobs because of low pay.

 

[where]

yeah well I've just marked a totally plagerised essay. Retention and achievement says the fucker won't get kicked off

 

[S-Des]

Richard Pryor said it best. "I got out of college, then went into the army....because the drop-outs had all the jobs."

I got a degree, which got my foot into the door of one field, then I trained myself and completely changed fields (because I wanted to be able to eat whenever I was hungry). Now I make a decent living, but it has nothing to do with my education. I could have skipped college (and the school loans) and been in a much better position financially. There are plenty of professions that require degrees (for good reason), but plenty that don't. My nephew went straight from high school to a good paying job with an oil company. By the time he's 22 (normal age for getting out of college), he'll be making more than me in an industry that won't be subjected to the kind of cut backs the rest of us face.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

TRB

A local judge posted a guest column in our newspaper Saturday. Much of it was plagiarized from a book someone else wrote. I found the judge's comments in the book. Its no big deal to the editor of the paper.

 

[where]

TRB

A local judge posted a guest column in our newspaper Saturday. Much of it was plagiarized from a book someone else wrote. I found the judge's comments in the book. Its no big deal to the editor of the paper.

yeah but academic dishonisty is different I spent three hours chasing up fucking refs for it when I could have been relaxing. Technically it's a fail. My guess going on hte last bit of plagerised shite I had to read is they won't fail but get a decent mark.

I'm so flipping het up I can't even spell!

 

[CharleyH]

There are plenty of professions that require degrees (for good reason), but plenty that don't.

Happy is the person that makes the way from order-taker to McDonalds manager.

 

[cloudy]

Maybe I'm not typical, but my degrees have been well worth it.

 

[S-Des]

Happy is the person that makes the way from order-taker to McDonalds manager.

hehehe....nice! Charley, I work in computers. Although to be an IT supervisor most jobs require a degree (or a ton of experience), many jobs in the IT world care far more about your skills than what any piece of paper says. My father was a construction foreman and built buildings and bridges that will live long past my life. College is a fine thing, but not something to be stressed unless it is relevant to your career path (especially with the prices so out of control).

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Employers in the US are prohibited from giving applicants an intelligence test. College serves as a surrogate. Not that you have to be all that brilliant to get a degree, but completing college does demonatrate that a person has a certain quotient of intelligence, discipline, perseverance, integrity and ambition. In non-technical fields, whether or not a person learns a damned thing that's worthwhile is irrelevant to an employer.

Personally, I think there is value in the intellectual broadening that occurs in college (notwithstanding the left-wing indoctrination that is all too common), but I seriously question whether the value of a non-technical degree in terms of increased earning power exceeds the cost. Maybe if a person does two years at a (relatively) inexpensive junior college and finishes off at a medium-tier state U.

I also think it's obscene the way colleges in the US have run up the cost with absolutely no regard for even minimal cost containment. Profs teach ever fewer courses, the proportion of non-faculty staff gets ever greater, the facilities ever more gold plated. They do it because they can, because governments keep increasing various subsidies. But the debt burden that is being placed on young people today is frankly immoral. It's a massive wealth transfer from them to a privileged class of elitist administrators and faculty, and it's wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

[JagFarlane]

yeah but academic dishonisty is different I spent three hours chasing up fucking refs for it when I could have been relaxing. Technically it's a fail. My guess going on hte last bit of plagerised shite I had to read is they won't fail but get a decent mark.

I'm so flipping het up I can't even spell!

Thus, at least in the classes I took, plagerism meant automatic failure, and it was enforced

 

[Liar]

Happy is the person that makes the way from order-taker to McDonalds manager.

Oh I don't know about that. I'd be miserable as a manager. Responsibility sucks.