wml

[Netzach]

The idea is that the family would have been helped by the neighbours and friends to make it through this and not the government. The government really has only so much power - to allot new land for temporary residence is only to be vague and is expected by the neighbouring communities to accept those who lost their land. The government is also to help rescue and then rebuild its lost infrastructure that it possesses - like roads, levees and sewers. There is a difference between community and government. The government only makes, enforces and judge the laws in place. It is up to the community to provide the rest of the duties.

Which neighbors and friends?

The ones who also have no food, water, medicine, or diapers?

The wealthier people who because of their intellectual superiority and can-do American attitude (or is it just that they have the MEANS) were the first to leave?

The rest of the country, which has sent millions to the red cross in a matter of days, only to find out that the red cross was not ALLOWED to distribute food? Or that equipped doctors have sat with no orders, no requests for help? Or that a military ship, one of the first and closest possible sources of aid, was not flagged down, told to give aid, or given direction though prepared to take people on? (all of these covered in mainstream media, not my usual wingnut sources like NPR or the Christian Science Monitor)

Check what the airlines went and did, and Amtrak. And I don't think anyone had to hold a gun to their heads. The private sector is coming through in every way it can. Doctors and nurses living on glucose drips, BEGGING to get their patients evacuated. Neighbors commandeering boats and picking people up. A kid who "looted" a bus and drove it to Houston full of people, because it was just sitting there unused. (it'll be interesting to see if he gets indicted or not)

 

[Netzach]

Before reading the rest of the thread: Yes, our thoughts are with you. I don't think people will donate as much as they would for poor countries, but newspapers and TV is all stuffed with news from New Orleans.
I have to say though that while thinking of the victims, most here are shocked as hell that the US didn't handle it better in the first days. It feels a bit strange that the US has to rely on help from other nations for the very basics (Germany sent 25 tons of food so far). I just hadn't expected this, I would have thought you would be able to handle such things by yourselves.

We are getting aid from India and Sri Lanka.

Strange times.

 

[chris9]

We are getting aid from India and Sri Lanka.

Strange times.

Indeed

What I noticed is how up until Katrina hit NO and the dikes broke, in the media here we only heard about how stupid Bush is and how stupid the Americans are, who elected him and still support him (yes, generalization, but that's how we were told to see the US). Now it seems to be a relief to hear about so many people speaking up against Bush. It's probably nothing you (general you) want to hear right now, or care to hear, but I guess the opinion the world has about the US and it's people is improving by this.

 

[catalina_francisco]

The hurricane was not a result of global warming. Just like the heatwave through the U.S. this past summer was not caused by global warming. It's just a natural ripple in the weather which causes these extremes. Global warming would mean long term droughts or long term flooding. None of these signify any of these sorts of these extremes since they weren't long-term and aren't creating new climates.

Interesting theory you have because in my homeland there is an extended drought of the level never experienced before, the coastline is disappearing under water at a rate of 1 cm a year, the green belt which provides most of the food and liveable land is decreasing yearly (significantly), we had snow in March in The Netherlands for the first time in history, and temperatures in both Australia and Europe are rising significantly by the year, as well as there being both floods and droughts in Europe which are mostly attributed to the hole in the ozone layer and the effect it is having globally. It is said much of Spain is going to be desert in a few decades.....call them ripples, but I tend to see the sense in the theory of global warming as a cause more than 'oh, it is just a coincidence...nothing to worry about'. I would think the rate/level of water which flooded the US in this hurricane would also have some relation to rising water tables throughout the globe.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

The idea is that the family would have been helped by the neighbours and friends to make it through this and not the government. The government really has only so much power - to allot new land for temporary residence is only to be vague and is expected by the neighbouring communities to accept those who lost their land. The government is also to help rescue and then rebuild its lost infrastructure that it possesses - like roads, levees and sewers. There is a difference between community and government. The government only makes, enforces and judge the laws in place. It is up to the community to provide the rest of the duties.

Ummm, this family was blood, as in several families related by blood who don't usually live in the same house...their neighbours they have no idea what happened to as they were busy getting their family together and to safety....and if you are so sure their neighbours and friends were going to be available to help them (not sure how you work out one family gets hit and the surrounding ones don't?), where are they now? I was answering the argument that people deserved what they got because they should have helped themselves, and gave an example of one who did and you now think they should have waited for someone? Isn't that what was being criticised as the whole problem?

I still differ with you about government....we elect governments in the free world to provide certain services for us, maintain a safe way of living, protect the nation (ie. the people...and last time I checked that would be in times of natural disasters, not just invasion from foreign groups or aliens ), and bottom line is they are elected by the people to do as the majority think fit in their society. From interviews I am seeing with US citizens, they do not feel this is the way they want their government governing or handling a crisis, nor are they satisfied anything was done, not to mention as much as possible. If the tsunami had been treated the same by their government, that is hands in the air and we couldn't do anything attitude, I am sure Bush would have been the first to criticise and step in to take over, don't you?

Catalina

 

[chris9]

The hurricane was not a result of global warming. Just like the heatwave through the U.S. this past summer was not caused by global warming. It's just a natural ripple in the weather which causes these extremes. Global warming would mean long term droughts or long term flooding. None of these signify any of these sorts of these extremes since they weren't long-term and aren't creating new climates.

Interesting theory you have because in my homeland there is an extended drought of the level never experienced before, the coastline is disappearing under water at a rate of 1 cm a year, we had snow in March in The Netherlands for the first time in history, and temperatures in both Australia and Europe are rising significantly by the year, as well as there being both floods and droughts in Europe which are mostly attributed to the hole in the ozone layer and the effect it is having globally. It is said much of Spain is going to be desert in a few decades.....call them ripples, but I tend to see the sense in the theory of global warming as a cause more than 'oh, it is just a coincidence...nothing to worry about'. I would think the rate/level of water which flooded the US in this hurricane would also have some relation to rising water tables throughout the globe.

Catalina

I'd say you are both right. From what I heard it is not possible to blame the global warming for any single event (storm, flood, draught etc.). Those natural catastrophes will certainly increase over the decades, both in quantity and 'quality', but now a single storm or such might just be a normal thing. It is certain though, that they are stronger even now, that a storm has more power, that a flood is higher.
So Spain becoming a desert, rising temperature around the globe, melting ice caps at the North and South Pole are directly linked to the global warning, while the existence of a single storm or flood is nature. Those are probable just stronger, because of higher water levels in the oceans/dried out land.

 

[chris9]

Another thought about electricity: Why don't you guys in the US build your power lines below the ground? It's pretty common here, so storms have less of a chance to destroy them.

 

[catalina_francisco]

That's why Clinton got his blowjobs in the office while Bush gets his on his Texas ranch.

LOL, you think anyone would give 'ole George a blowjob? I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole, so forget my mouth getting around his old fella!!

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Besides, if a government claims that it has set up a Department for Homeland Security for all kinds of desasters, whether human induced or natural, using the tax money it got from its people, the people DO have the RIGHT to expect the government to help them out.
So, yes, as long as the government doesn't do more than what you state, you're right. But if the government takes up more responsibilities the people have less.

Exactly, if they are willing to take money from the people in tax dollars, and they boast it is being used to provide safety for the people, they have a responsibility. Without people, they have no money, no power, so it makes sense to take care of your most valeable and constant resouce. Many a despot has rued the day they forgot that detail.

Catalina

 

[Xelebes]

Ummm, this family was blood, as in several families related by blood who don't usually live in the same house...their neighbours they have no idea what happened to as they were busy getting their family together and to safety....and if you are so sure their neighbours and friends were going to be available to help them (not sure how you work out one family gets hit and the surrounding ones don't?), where are they now? I was answering the argument that people deserved what they got because they should have helped themselves, and gave an example of one who did and you now think they should have waited for someone? Isn't that what was being criticised as the whole problem?

I still differ with you about government....we elect governments in the free world to provide certain services for us, maintain a safe way of living, protect the nation (ie. the people...and last time I checked that would be in times of natural disasters, not just invasion from foreign groups or aliens ), and bottom line is they are elected by the people to do as the majority think fit in their society. From interviews I am seeing with US citizens, they do not feel this is the way they want their government governing or handling a crisis, nor are they satisfied anything was done, not to mention as much as possible. If the tsunami had been treated the same by their government, that is hands in the air and we couldn't do anything attitude, I am sure Bush would have been the first to criticise and step in to take over, don't you?

Catalina

Protection is part of the job of enforcing the law, yes. But providing housing for those stranded is a bit too much to ask for the government. This is where the community of the nation comes together and offers what the government cannot offer.

 

[Xelebes]

Another thought about electricity: Why don't you guys in the US build your power lines below the ground? It's pretty common here, so storms have less of a chance to destroy them.

The power grid for a large part of the US is getting outdated - hence that major blackout a few years back. It is much easier to set up underground wiring when the land is just being converted into a community - and they do that now with the new suburbs since the mid-late seventies or so. But for a large part of the inner cities rely on above-ground power because it is a bit more difficult to put it in established land.

 

[Xelebes]

Interesting theory you have because in my homeland there is an extended drought of the level never experienced before, the coastline is disappearing under water at a rate of 1 cm a year, the green belt which provides most of the food and liveable land is decreasing yearly (significantly), we had snow in March in The Netherlands for the first time in history, and temperatures in both Australia and Europe are rising significantly by the year, as well as there being both floods and droughts in Europe which are mostly attributed to the hole in the ozone layer and the effect it is having globally. It is said much of Spain is going to be desert in a few decades.....call them ripples, but I tend to see the sense in the theory of global warming as a cause more than 'oh, it is just a coincidence...nothing to worry about'. I would think the rate/level of water which flooded the US in this hurricane would also have some relation to rising water tables throughout the globe.

Catalina

As was noted by chris9, this particular hurricane was not the result of global warming. Global warming refers more to climate than weather. So anything changing the climate would be considered under such umbrella but things related to weather is just simply nature and just a standard deviation within the climate.

 

[Xelebes]

Which neighbors and friends?

The ones who also have no food, water, medicine, or diapers?

The wealthier people who because of their intellectual superiority and can-do American attitude (or is it just that they have the MEANS) were the first to leave?

The rest of the country, which has sent millions to the red cross in a matter of days, only to find out that the red cross was not ALLOWED to distribute food? Or that equipped doctors have sat with no orders, no requests for help? Or that a military ship, one of the first and closest possible sources of aid, was not flagged down, told to give aid, or given direction though prepared to take people on? (all of these covered in mainstream media, not my usual wingnut sources like NPR or the Christian Science Monitor)

Check what the airlines went and did, and Amtrak. And I don't think anyone had to hold a gun to their heads. The private sector is coming through in every way it can. Doctors and nurses living on glucose drips, BEGGING to get their patients evacuated. Neighbors commandeering boats and picking people up. A kid who "looted" a bus and drove it to Houston full of people, because it was just sitting there unused. (it'll be interesting to see if he gets indicted or not)

Neighbours and friends in other states, towns and counties. Broaden up the term a bit there for you.

 

[Xelebes]

I read that some people who wanted to leave the Superdome or the fair halls (as close a translation as I could get to) on foot where forced by gunpower back there. I also read that they were threatened with guns when trying to take food and water from stores where it was rotting anyway, because obviously taking care of yourself, your food and water is considered looting and is worth death. So just tell me HOW they could have helped themselves?
Besides, if a government claims that it has set up a Department for Homeland Security for all kinds of desasters, whether human induced or natural, using the tax money it got from its people, the people DO have the RIGHT to expect the government to help them out.
So, yes, as long as the government doesn't do more than what you state, you're right. But if the government takes up more responsibilities the people have less.

Point 1) That was obviously a bungle on the commanding lines of government.

Point 2) A government office can only do much. They tried to rescue as fast as possible but giving new homes is up to the charity of the nation to help.

 

[chris9]

Point 2) A government office can only do much. They tried to rescue as fast as possible but giving new homes is up to the charity of the nation to help.

I don't think we were really talking about housing people, or maybe I misunderstood the discussion.
They took a long time to start the full-scale rescuing, which I don't really understand, because it was well known beforehand that a hurricane was on its way, and that there is the possibility of dikes breaking. They might have TRIED to rescue as fast as possible, but they didn't DO it.
As housing goes: If people have friends of if citizens in other states/cities are willing to host strangers that lost everything, they will. But some of the people might not know anyone. And others might offer their house maybe for a couple of weeks. But it will take months to make NO habitable again. So those people who lost everything, their home, their jobs, who don't have money, they NEED housing provided by the government.

 

[Xelebes]

I don't think we were really talking about housing people, or maybe I misunderstood the discussion.
They took a long time to start the full-scale rescuing, which I don't really understand, because it was well known beforehand that a hurricane was on its way, and that there is the possibility of dikes breaking. They might have TRIED to rescue as fast as possible, but they didn't DO it.
As housing goes: If people have friends of if citizens in other states/cities are willing to host strangers that lost everything, they will. But some of the people might not know anyone. And others might offer their house maybe for a couple of weeks. But it will take months to make NO habitable again. So those people who lost everything, their home, their jobs, who don't have money, they NEED housing provided by the government.

I'm just saying there is a growing list of boards listing offers of sanctuary. Yeah, and I do concede the government offices are a bit slow and were exceptionally slow in this disaster. But I'd certainly like to see a lot less anger and fury being spewed. Leave the tempest for when it really matters.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Protection is part of the job of enforcing the law, yes. But providing housing for those stranded is a bit too much to ask for the government. This is where the community of the nation comes together and offers what the government cannot offer.

Sheesh, just a bit of food and water would have been good, and if they didn't feel ready to give it themselves, to not stop those who could and would. No amount of talking and excusing is going to make this one right in anyone's eyes I'm afraid....even Bushie admits it was an inadequate response, he just doesn't finish the sentence with admitting it was his and his government's inadequate response, just some nameless entity...perhaps he can blame it on God.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm just saying there is a growing list of boards listing offers of sanctuary. Yeah, and I do concede the government offices are a bit slow and were exceptionally slow in this disaster. But I'd certainly like to see a lot less anger and fury being spewed. Leave the tempest for when it really matters.[/QUOTE

And when is that? When it personally affects you and yours? Not trying to get personal, but I don't see this as a storm in a teacup not worth getting pissed about...and I don't know anyone personally involved or nor do I even live on the same continent.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

As was noted by chris9, this particular hurricane was not the result of global warming. Global warming refers more to climate than weather. So anything changing the climate would be considered under such umbrella but things related to weather is just simply nature and just a standard deviation within the climate.

Actually weather and climate are inter-related. Weather is a more momentous thing, while climate is more descriptive of a particular area. Global warming is about changing, or to be more exact, increasing temperatures, which then create higher water levels, especially in the oceans.....the gases produced also impact on the environment and can in turn create weather patterns in reaction to the changes. For instance, you do not hear of hurricanes in cold climates.....or snow in tropical climates....makes sense if you increase temperatures (climate changes) and water levels, scientifically speaking you increase the risk of such weather changes as increased number and velocity hurricanes and storms with more severe effects than previous generations have known.

Catalina

 

[h_i_s]

Protection is part of the job of enforcing the law, yes. But providing housing for those stranded is a bit too much to ask for the government. This is where the community of the nation comes together and offers what the government cannot offer.

Huh?? The Gov HAS been providing housing to it's 'stranded' people who don't have the means to provide for themselves ... for years. It's called welfare. Welfare offers housing vouchers too, the aid offered is not limited to foodstamps.

Which leads me to wonder, just food for thought: In order to collect welfare (which *many* of these people left homeless/jobless/penniless would now qualify for) a permanent mailing address is required. Will these people be able to claim the Houston Dome as their address? Hmm ...

 

[Xelebes]

Huh?? The Gov HAS been providing housing to it's 'stranded' people who don't have the means to provide for themselves ... for years. It's called welfare. Welfare offers housing vouchers too, the aid offered is not limited to foodstamps.

Which leads me to wonder, just food for thought: In order to collect welfare (which *many* of these people left homeless/jobless/penniless would now qualify for) a permanent mailing address is required. Will these people be able to claim the Houston Dome as their address? Hmm ...

Mere expansions of the government will not be expected to do all that much in cases of disaster this large. This still requires a community effort to resolve. As I said, the government can only do so much. And this is coming from a Canadian with a government that is even more extensive.

 

[Xelebes]

Actually weather and climate are inter-related. Weather is a more momentous thing, while climate is more descriptive of a particular area. Global warming is about changing, or to be more exact, increasing temperatures, which then create higher water levels, especially in the oceans.....the gases produced also impact on the environment and can in turn create weather patterns in reaction to the changes. For instance, you do not hear of hurricanes in cold climates.....or snow in tropical climates....makes sense if you increase temperatures (climate changes) and water levels, scientifically speaking you increase the risk of such weather changes as increased number and velocity hurricanes and storms with more severe effects than previous generations have known.

Catalina

Yes, but weather and climate are not all that related. Weather is only a mere subset of climate. Climate has habitat, seasonal temperature differences and other factors while weather does not. Just because in Canada it gets to 40C twice in a year does not mean the world is getting warmer because we might also get -50C in the next winter or the winter after.

 

[Xelebes]

Sheesh, just a bit of food and water would have been good, and if they didn't feel ready to give it themselves, to not stop those who could and would. No amount of talking and excusing is going to make this one right in anyone's eyes I'm afraid....even Bushie admits it was an inadequate response, he just doesn't finish the sentence with admitting it was his and his government's inadequate response, just some nameless entity...perhaps he can blame it on God.

Catalina

The blame lies rather extensively throughout all levels of government.

 

[Xelebes]

And when is that? When it personally affects you and yours? Not trying to get personal, but I don't see this as a storm in a teacup not worth getting pissed about...and I don't know anyone personally involved or nor do I even live on the same continent.

Catalina

I do live on the same continent, our nation is helping by absorbing some of the economocial shock that has taken place. But I want to see a little less bickering fraught with anger that shows no end. In the end, the fury has to end or else it loses everything it stood for.

 

[h_i_s]

As was noted by chris9, this particular hurricane was not the result of global warming. Global warming refers more to climate than weather. So anything changing the climate would be considered under such umbrella but things related to weather is just simply nature and just a standard deviation within the climate.

If the climate changes due to global warming, and in effect that climate effects the weather ..... why would we claim that global warming was not the source of this cycle of change (although of course, then we need to point the finger at WHO caused the global warming in the first place... understood, yep)?

If a person could turn up the heat in their second floor apartment high enough, BUT had been warned that doing so could cause the sprinkler system to turn on & therefore was informed that they should NOT turn up the thermostat quite that high (let's call the thermostat 'global warming'), which would then cause the sprinkler systems to turn on .... (let's call the sprinkler systems the 'weather') and those sprinkler systems flooded the entire first floor tenent's apartment & in effect created a less than tolerable climate for that first floor tenent ... and then the manager of the building knocked on that second floor tenent's door asking for an explaination ....... with whom/what/where should the manager find fault? The thermostat? The climate? The sprinkler system? ............ Or the idiot who didn't heed the warnings and turned it up high enough to cause the sprinkler system to turn on?