wml

[Killishandra]

I'm sorry to jump on you here Grace, but as much as I try not to waste my breath on political debates, there are certain patterns of thought that simply make me want to gouge my own eyes out.

The new, "I may be a Republican but I want to fit in too!" thing to do seems to be to point out that Bush is an asshole, but hey, who really gives a fuck who we vote for because politicians all suck, right?

WRONG.

WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON WAS A GREAT PRESIDENT. Not just because we share an Alma Mater, but because of the incredible reforms he made in our country during his time in office. Clinton gets blamed for everything from the economy to 9-11 with the most blatantly specious arguments you could possibly hear.

Now you are going to blame Clinton for the state of FEMA? He "did nothing" right? President Clinton appointed James Lee Witt for the position of FEMA. In that time FEMA went through more reforms than any other time in its past since its inception. Not only that, but Witt was an extremely well educated, experienced and qualified person for the job. You can tell because he did an awesome job. Clinton also raised this position to the cabinet level because he thought disaster management was so important.

Bush on the other hand appointed his former campaign manager and chief of staff Joe Allbaugh. Ahhh, you gotta love the good 'ol boys. The way the molest the common man in this country is done so artfully, I gotta respect it from a Dom's perspective.

But hey, our President may suck balls, but he's only human right? We don't really deserve a good leader anyway, so lets just shut up and deal with it like good citizens! Maybe we'll get another couple hundred dollar bribe, I mean tax cut.

How many people would rather give back the tax cut and get back the extra money we've spent on gas?

Bravo. Especially love the last line.

 

[Marquis]

Clinton is a favourite of mine for a number of reasons, 3 of which are:

He has warm red bood running in his veins to the extent he can still get an erection over an attractive, willing woman as opposed to a hard on from money and power...

And he has integrity and a conscience...he fucked up with Rwanda and has been big enough to not only admit it publicly and often(the only high powered person who ever has), but is still making regular visits and contact with that country in an effort to offer genuine help in whatever way he can....that to me is a leader and a human worth his weight in gold....

And he is more interested in helping those who are not at the top or middle of the economic ladder and from his own roots has developed a real understanding and love of those people and their lives....unlike many who rise to high positions, he does not forget and pretend the poor and disadvantaged do not exist while hoping they will just disappear in silence.

Catalina

I could go on forever on why I like Clinton, and you listed some excellent examples, but I think I can summarize it best in one anecdote.

On September 1 of 2000, Clinton came to my University to give a speech on missile defense technology, which was kind of a hot button issue at the time. I waited outside the building for hours ahead of time so I could be sure to get a seat up front. I was probably 15 feet from him the whole time he gave his speech, which was of course, riveting and immaculate. After the thunderous applause that immediately followed his speech, he came down and shook the hands of the kids in the front two rows.

Now, in my time in DC, I had brief interactions with many politicians. They ranged in how well they could hide their disgust or just impatience with the commonfolk they had to constantly feign adoration for. I had always heard Clinton was the best at this. He came over, looked me in the eye and shook my hand. The whole thing probably didn't take 3 seconds.

I am a very sensitive person, and pretty perceptive in reading people's body language and expressions. I can only assume he treated me no differently than any of the other millions of anonymous hands he shakes, and if Clinton was faking the genuine good feelings he had for me in those few seconds, he deserves an Oscar. Clinton had them all beat by not even playing their game. While Al Gore (who I love on policy grounds, despite his terrible politics) is being lectured on how to be an alpha male, Clinton just genuinely loved his people. I think it was obvious in the way he ran the country, and it is nothing short of tangible in the way he carried himself.

 

[jasonlf]

Just how do you imagine we be prepared for something like this?

Average container capacity = 5,400 kg (11,930 lbs)

Average water consumption per person per day = 2L (2kg) (4.4lbs)

Average food consumption per person per day = 2 kg (4.4lbs)

Average MRE consumption per person = 5~20 kg (11~44lbs)

Number of people stranded = 30,000+

We are talking about 300,000~720,000 kg (660,000~1,584,000 lbs) that has to be shipped by truck (since ports are useless). And that is a minimum. The need exceeds 1 kiloton and could climg as high as 5 kilotons. That is at least 200 truckloads that need to get there and as much as 1,000 truckloads.

The logistics game is not for the ragtag pre-planning prevention whatever. The circumstances go above and beyond any ability to press on with the pre-planning. I never expect an agency to be planned for disasters like this, even in Canada. Once Vancouver sinks, I do not expect the Canadian government to be prepared for it.

So basically, I'm calling for patience and not to get the hatred at political figureheads for not doing enough. There is lots to do and lots to figure out what to do.

Xelebes++

That's the most intellegent thing I've heard about the response to the storm since it happened.

 

[Netzach]

This is the US. Like it or not the biggest richest superpower in the world.

We got relief to Banda Aceh in 2 days. 2.

If the feds told Greyhound and Fedex, get every plane and bus and do this, does anyone think greyhound or fedex would take on the PR shitstorm of saying no?

We have people in the private sector who we consider visionaries, genuises, leaders who can pull diverse workforces behind them, people who co-ordinate massive operations of every kind, daily.

We have resources of every kind coming out the butt. Wealth, food, great minds, streamlined operations. It's not because it's not there or it's too hard for anyone anywhere in the country to handle.

What we're going to be told is that the Governor of LA didn't file her forms didn't ask correctly to bring in national guard and FEMA by twirling 65 times and saying "pretty please sugar on top, Valerie Plame is a CIA op"

The local government is going to get swift boated. I hope people aren't willing to listen, because it's not the point as to who filed her forms or didn't. Sending in a national presence is a no-brainer. In this age of PDF's faxes, cable phones "we had no way of knowing" is not going to hold water.

The red cross has been actively discouraged from distributing food multiple times throughout this. I am not looking to fringe news sources to find this out. This is coming via FOX, for pete's sake. Fox.

FEMA was a mess during the Regan administration, Clinton did actually do a lot to improve the organization. Now we have supposedly a stronger FEMA and this Homeland security thing. We've been happy to think "what's a few civil rights when there are terrorists out there" and now we see what that tightened security has gotten us in the event of crisis. Nothing. Worse than nothing.

I'm going to agree however that BOTH pubs and dems have been happy to totally IGNORE 40 years of requests for funding to deal with the issue of the levees in NOLA. That's not speaking highly of anyone, it's criminal, it's pathetic.

 

[Netzach]

I could go on forever on why I like Clinton, and you listed some excellent examples, but I think I can summarize it best in one anecdote.

On September 1 of 2000, Clinton came to my University to give a speech on missile defense technology, which was kind of a hot button issue at the time. I waited outside the building for hours ahead of time so I could be sure to get a seat up front. I was probably 15 feet from him the whole time he gave his speech, which was of course, riveting and immaculate. After the thunderous applause that immediately followed his speech, he came down and shook the hands of the kids in the front two rows.

Now, in my time in DC, I had brief interactions with many politicians. They ranged in how well they could hide their disgust or just impatience with the commonfolk they had to constantly feign adoration for. I had always heard Clinton was the best at this. He came over, looked me in the eye and shook my hand. The whole thing probably didn't take 3 seconds.

I am a very sensitive person, and pretty perceptive in reading people's body language and expressions. I can only assume he treated me no differently than any of the other millions of anonymous hands he shakes, and if Clinton was faking the genuine good feelings he had for me in those few seconds, he deserves an Oscar. Clinton had them all beat by not even playing their game. While Al Gore (who I love on policy grounds, despite his terrible politics) is being lectured on how to be an alpha male, Clinton just genuinely loved his people. I think it was obvious in the way he ran the country, and it is nothing short of tangible in the way he carried himself.

This is all really cool and stuff, but I'll take competence with a lack of empathy over empathy with a lack of competence.

Not that I think Clinton was incompetant completely or not. Carter was incompetent, but always seemed the kinda guy I'd trust with the keys to my own house, an incredibly moral and fairminded person.

I don't necessarily need that in my leadership, though it's kinda cool as an add on. I want a pragmatist, someone who can do the things that need doing, maybe someone I'm not always going to adore as a human being.

After the jokes about Trent Lott's house I don't think Bush gives a rat's ass about humanity, has no shame over that fact, and I don't think he is competent after this debacle.

I don't think he should necessarily be in NOLA patting people on shoulders or distributing meals. I want him in the damn whitehouse on the phone telling people what to do.

 

[snowy ciara]

This is the US. Like it or not the biggest richest superpower in the world.

We got relief to Banda Aceh in 2 days. 2.

If the feds told Greyhound and Fedex, get every plane and bus and do this, does anyone think greyhound or fedex would take on the PR shitstorm of saying no?

We have people in the private sector who we consider visionaries, genuises, leaders who can pull diverse workforces behind them, people who co-ordinate massive operations of every kind, daily.

We have resources of every kind coming out the butt. Wealth, food, great minds, streamlined operations. It's not because it's not there or it's too hard for anyone anywhere in the country to handle.

Disregarding the part about the levee repairs and just going on the fact that it took too long to get stuff there.

There was a LOT of stuff that could have been done. There was a pretty good idea when and where this hurricane was going to hit. Instead of saying "get the hell out of Dodge." the gov could have sent busses and such to NO before it hit and offered transportation to those who didn't have the vehicles or the money to get out. National guard troops could have been staged closer to the area. Dallas or Houston would have been a good place to stage people and they could have delivered food and water at the same time. Simple pre-planning would have alleviated a lot of distress this week.

 

[Krinaia]

I am not moving. I am damn proud to be an American, and am so PISSED that people are criticizing the relief efforts.

HOW many times, in recent history, has an ENTIRE city just VANISHED? An ENTIRE CITY, people... not just a building... not just a couple of blocks.

An entire city. Please think about that. How do you get people out? Boats, and helicopters.. and from where do you deploy them? and how, until the waters calm, the wind stops, and the danger of tornado's is over?

How do you get basic essentials to these people?

By boat... by helicopter... yes, I have read the news, watched it, and yes, my opinion of Bush is pretty black. I will not be voting for him again. However, lets not leap in and start bashing things before we think them through.

Perhaps the planning and logistics might have went a little better, but I'd really like to take a moment and give thanks for the GOOD things. For all the hard working rescuers, to all the police, National Guardsmen, etc. who are risking their lives to help.

C'mon people... quit knocking, start supporting. It's easy to criticize something you have never had to deal with yourself, it isn't so easy to do.

I was trying to catch up with this thread and some of the statements above distracted me from reading on by their pure idiocy... you wil not be voting again for bush? Geezus. That you already voted for a man who could see only his own interests as laws for a nation of individuals shows some poor voting choices - but what the hell do you plan to see him running for? Two terms as president is all the man gets UNLESS of course you plan on letting him lift that law so he can rule our country as supreme ruler or perhaps you'll help the bush dynasty by voting for his brother. I just wish the elections were this year or that these disasters had come sooner. The angry mom he's too wimp to face, the stampede in Iraq illustrating the futility of our efforts over there. The hurricane's destruction tenfold because the federal government is funding un expensive war for oil instead of investing in it's people and REAL solutions to the oil crisis this world will face within the next century and if you don't believe that. Think on it - oil is in plastics from the milk jug to coat hangers. None of our public trasnport in those cities large enough to have it - have really reliable transport that runs on something other then diesel fuel. This country is headed for disaster and we don't have anyone with enough foresight with enough power to forestall it. Glad to be an American? Today I am but I suspect that by the time I'm fifty, I won't be.

 

[Krinaia]

But Jeb is a lot smarter than W, and a better speaker, too.

Vote for Jeb and you vote for almost monarchy values. Fuck family. Course, the true power of votes is pitiful against the wealth of the ruling class.


<edited to add:>

I don't mean fuck families and the strength of families but just because you belogn to a family doesn't mean you deserve to have power and wealth as a result of inheritance. I think there is plenty of proof of this throughout history.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I was trying to catch up with this thread and some of the statements above distracted me from reading on by their pure idiocy... you wil not be voting again for bush? Geezus. That you already voted for a man who could see only his own interests as laws for a nation of individuals shows some poor voting choices - but what the hell do you plan to see him running for? Two terms as president is all the man gets UNLESS of course you plan on letting him lift that law so he can rule our country as supreme ruler or perhaps you'll help the bush dynasty by voting for his brother. I just wish the elections were this year or that these disasters had come sooner. The angry mom he's too wimp to face, the stampede in Iraq illustrating the futility of our efforts over there. The hurricane's destruction tenfold because the federal government is funding un expensive war for oil instead of investing in it's people and REAL solutions to the oil crisis this world will face within the next century and if you don't believe that. Think on it - oil is in plastics from the milk jug to coat hangers. None of our public trasnport in those cities large enough to have it - have really reliable transport that runs on something other then diesel fuel. This country is headed for disaster and we don't have anyone with enough foresight with enough power to forestall it. Glad to be an American? Today I am but I suspect that by the time I'm fifty, I won't be.

I have also been thinking perhaps this should bring home to Bush the reality of global warming and a good reason he might like to revise his previous stubborness to take part in any agreements other world powers are signing to in an effort to protect the environment and minimise the future problems of rising sea levels due to the meltdown.

Catalina

 

[Kajira Callista]

I have noticed a lot of people getting mad at the government over this disaster in the south but was wondering if anyone else has noticed something i see over and over on the news. These people did not do anything and still aren't doing anything to help themselves or their families. They stay when they were told to go for starters. And how the hell aren't you prepared with food and water and a flashlight and batteries....a radio if you do decide to stay. Why the hell would they walk up to a highway and sit there in the hot sun waiting for someone to do for them, and then sit there for days with no food or water? Where the hell is their survival instinct? If it were me (and I'm not saying everyone is as nuts or anal as i am) I would have water and a backpack (I'm thinking if they got to the highway the highway has to be a way out) and just freaking walk til i was out of there. I watched a woman complaining that a helicopter got dust in her eyes as she was being rescued. I then watched her get on the helicopter before her children.....yuck.
I live in a place where flooding is a frequent problem and i know where the shelters are and where the emergency evac is for my kids school. i know their doctor is the doctor that would go stay in the shelter with them. I know how to get out or higher, and i know how to move away from the flooding. Ya think people in NO would know the same?
BTW in the beginning of the mess of 9/11 it was people helping people that got the ball rolling, no one sat and waited for the gov to come help. To me, there lies the difference between the two disasters.

 

[Netzach]

1. there was a ton of people helping people going on. that the cameras were more interested in looting and the issue of private property at a time like this shows a lot.

2. Imagine you are unbelievably crushing poor-ass poor. Not like, broke poor, like "I have one pair of shoes" poor. Bus dependent. You've just lost everything or been yanked off your roof after 5 days of watching dead dogs and people floating past. Why don't you have extra canned food, batteries, and your flashlight?

3. Why didn't they walk out? Did you catch Shep Smith on conservative FOX? They were A. shut in at night, told to go to the convention center by authorities (I'd go where authorities told me to if I was waist deep in water, call me subbie that way-- after this I'm rethinking that urge, though) B. Not allowed to walk out of the city -- there was a checkpoint set up to keep people going out or in.

As for the woman who got into the chopper before getting her kids in there, I've seen this kind of behavior from all races, socioeconomic backgrounds, creeds and colors. And whenever I see it I think to myself, sometimes there SHOULD be forced sterilization.

 

[Netzach]

I have also been thinking perhaps this should bring home to Bush the reality of global warming and a good reason he might like to revise his previous stubborness to take part in any agreements other world powers are signing to in an effort to protect the environment and minimise the future problems of rising sea levels due to the meltdown.

Catalina

Especially since Kennebunkport's on the coast, last I checked.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

I've been trying to stay out of the political aspects of this thread, since its original purpose was to wish good luck to kerker meister, his family and the others in this situation, but I'm kinda tired of the constant bashing of the government, etc., and have to say something.

This country was founded and built by people who did for themselves, and when that was impossible - e.g., in the case of a massive disaster, a barn that burnt down, etc. - they did for each other, as neighbors, because they knew their neighbor would do the same for them. Somewhere along the line, too many people came to believe that the government should do it.

Yes, I know that millions of people have donated money and goods to help, because they're too far away to help personally - but what KC said above is something that's been missing in this country for too long. The people who didn't prepare themselves, at least minimally - flashlights, bottled water, canned foods, medicines, etc., ready and in a place where all family members knew where they were... the people who sat back and said, "The government will take care of me" if something bad happens... the ones who are looting (not food and necessities, but guns, televisions, etc.)... the ones who did nothing to help themselves... sorry, but I think that's Darwin at work.

"The Lord helps those who help themselves." I believe that's true, and that helping yourself - not to guns and televisions, but to prepare for a disaster you've been warned is on the way - is the first step in helping oneself. I don't have a "disaster kit" made up... but if I got a warning that a hurricane was on the way, I'd have jugs of water, flashlights, radio, batteries, canned foods, meds, clothing, all ready well before it got there, just as I did when I lived in Florida (30+ years) when we had a hurricane watch or warning. Those who expected others - neighbors, city, county, state or federal government - to help them when they made no effort to help themselves... sorry.

 

[Netzach]

Sorry THAT dog doesn't hunt.


The government's latest excuse is "we didn't know it was coming" "we didn't know the levee might break."

So the poor, the disenfranchised, shit, even the regular working schmuck should know what the feds had "no way of knowing?"

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think some people just don't understand what it means to be poor to the point of not having a cent to spare, not to mention the physical and mental toll living in such a condition takes on a person/family/community year in and year out. We had friends recently who were caught in the hurricane in the Carribean...they were put up in a nice safe hotel to weather it out and were showing us the before and after pics of the same spots. The wife was stunned and critical of the poor who she said did not help themselves and were just sitting in the street with their heads in their hands looking at the sticks that used to be their houses, while the rich were getting in supplies and beginning rebuilding. Her husband understood the problem but she couldn't understand that you can't just pull money out of the sky and hire a group of workmen to begin rebuilding your house the next day, and you don't exactly feel overjoyed or positive when you have no resources available to contemplate a future...and that this is likely not the first time it has happened to you.

When you have endured so much it sometimes takes a bit of time and support to feel like fighting back and going on living. In regards to NO, I saw many people interviewed who were helping others in the shelters, trying to keep them alive, trying to ease them in death, and despite their own pain and loss, managing to hold it together while living amongst a growing pile of dead bodies. I don't think those people will ever get the smell of death from their minds, nor the horror of watching the dead rot before their eyes and wondering if they also were going to become one of the pile. It is easy to sit and watch it from a safe place and feel it is their fault they are in that position, but apart from choices not being available, it is deplorable a wealthy western nation cannot get their act together to help their own citizens in their time of need. Even today they were showing a group of soldiers walking through the devastation, guns in hand, proclaiming to the newsmen that it was alright now because the army was there.....duh, they had no food, water, medical supplies, or transport, just displaying gunpower.....how is that going to save someone who is dying from lack of food or water? Many could not leave....for instance how would the mother I saw interviewed who had just given birth have walked out of NO with her other small children, new baby, and her own weakness and managed to get to safety? How would the disabled walk out, and there were many who were trapped and died in the flood or shelters....how would the elderly and sick get out in time?

If this was simply a matter of the government having no choice/options, the people asking for what happened to them, the rest of the world as a whole would not be so disgusted and shocked at the lack of response....and believe me, it is what is being discussed everywhere in terms of just not making sense or being acceptable or honourable on the part of Bush and his government, not that people should have been more pro-active in their own destiny and safety.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

The people who didn't prepare themselves, at least minimally - flashlights, bottled water, canned foods, medicines, etc., ready and in a place where all family members knew where they were... the people who sat back and said, "The government will take care of me" if something bad happens... the ones who are looting (not food and necessities, but guns, televisions, etc.)... the ones who did nothing to help themselves... sorry, but I think that's Darwin at work.

"The Lord helps those who help themselves." I believe that's true, and that helping yourself - not to guns and televisions, but to prepare for a disaster you've been warned is on the way - is the first step in helping oneself. I don't have a "disaster kit" made up... but if I got a warning that a hurricane was on the way, I'd have jugs of water, flashlights, radio, batteries, canned foods, meds, clothing, all ready well before it got there, just as I did when I lived in Florida (30+ years) when we had a hurricane watch or warning. Those who expected others - neighbors, city, county, state or federal government - to help them when they made no effort to help themselves... sorry.

Sorry, I can't agree with you. They interviewed a family today who were in a hotel rooom...a small one with 20 family members in it....the only place they could go for safety. Hmmm, well their concern, and apparently they are one of many such families, is that they only have enough money for one more night in the hotel, they have been told they will then be on the street, and they have no access to a shelter...how is that not a responsibilty fo authorities? After all, a country/government is nothing without it's citizens, but that is a point many politicians forget when they get into power and feel they are self important and don't need to bother with the smaller people who are not sdo well off...and democracies are actually supposed to represent and serve the people, not abandon them after taking their taxes for their whole lives.


One of my favourite quotes went something like 'It is often difficult to appreciate oppression and poverty from a position of wealth and power'.

Blaming the victim just never works for me...woman gets raped - she must have asked for it; someone gets robbed - they must have been flashing around their money/property; someone gets murdered - well they must have done something wrong or mixed with unsavoury people; father molests his daughter - she must have led him on and/or why did the mother not know and stop it before it happened....just seems a convenient cop out to me so people can sleep at night secure in the idea it just would/could never happen to them because they are too smart, special, superior, don't deserve it, what have you.

Catalina

 

[h_i_s]

Just a thought, but i have to wonder (well, to some extent .. at least ).

How many watched Bush flying over LA, looking down upon people as they clung to rooftops ...... or as he walked the streets in the days following, and wondered why he had nothing to offer other than 'encouraging words' and hugs ..........

and,

......... while knowing that what they needed most was food and water ....

he had none to offer (from what i saw/viewed/read .. but i may have missed it if he DID)?

And yeah, i know that one man can only carry so much on his person, BUT ... he had a vehicle of some type which got him there ... so ... even if he would have stuffed his trunk, or stashed some on his helicopter (i don't recall/know what mode of transportation he used that day when he was shown hugging those young girls in the street) ...

i think a bottle of water would have helped.

And yes, i'm certain that some may have gained a bit of renewed hope by his presence, and may have felt at that moment that they were not quite 'alone' ... but i also feel that he was also on yet another 'baby kissing' mission as far as to where his underlying intentions lay.

It just struck me as odd. Maybe it IS just me, and i think that if i were entering a hard struck area of LA this week .... i'd have had felt a deep need to actively HELP anyone that i could ... and would have had my own stash of water (no matter how limited my stash may be) to pass out.

Just a thought i had while watching the news unfold ... thought i'd share it.

Edited to add: i know there are security measures/concerns in place which some might think would limit him in this regard. But, if he can hug a few people in the streets, he could include water and/or food with the hugs ... no???

 

[Xelebes]

I have also been thinking perhaps this should bring home to Bush the reality of global warming and a good reason he might like to revise his previous stubborness to take part in any agreements other world powers are signing to in an effort to protect the environment and minimise the future problems of rising sea levels due to the meltdown.

Catalina

The hurricane was not a result of global warming. Just like the heatwave through the U.S. this past summer was not caused by global warming. It's just a natural ripple in the weather which causes these extremes. Global warming would mean long term droughts or long term flooding. None of these signify any of these sorts of these extremes since they weren't long-term and aren't creating new climates.

 

[Xelebes]

Sorry, I can't agree with you. They interviewed a family today who were in a hotel rooom...a small one with 20 family members in it....the only place they could go for safety. Hmmm, well their concern, and apparently they are one of many such families, is that they only have enough money for one more night in the hotel, they have been told they will then be on the street, and they have no access to a shelter...how is that not a responsibilty fo authorities? After all, a country/government is nothing without it's citizens, but that is a point many politicians forget when they get into power and feel they are self important and don't need to bother with the smaller people who are not sdo well off...and democracies are actually supposed to represent and serve the people, not abandon them after taking their taxes for their whole lives.


One of my favourite quotes went something like 'It is often difficult to appreciate oppression and poverty from a position of wealth and power'.

Blaming the victim just never works for me...woman gets raped - she must have asked for it; someone gets robbed - they must have been flashing around their money/property; someone gets murdered - well they must have done something wrong or mixed with unsavoury people; father molests his daughter - she must have led him on and/or why did the mother not know and stop it before it happened....just seems a convenient cop out to me so people can sleep at night secure in the idea it just would/could never happen to them because they are too smart, special, superior, don't deserve it, what have you.

Catalina

The idea is that the family would have been helped by the neighbours and friends to make it through this and not the government. The government really has only so much power - to allot new land for temporary residence is only to be vague and is expected by the neighbouring communities to accept those who lost their land. The government is also to help rescue and then rebuild its lost infrastructure that it possesses - like roads, levees and sewers. There is a difference between community and government. The government only makes, enforces and judge the laws in place. It is up to the community to provide the rest of the duties.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

The idea is that the family would have been helped by the neighbours and friends to make it through this and not the government. The government really has only so much power - to allot new land for temporary residence is only to be vague and is expected by the neighbouring communities to accept those who lost their land. The government is also to help rescue and then rebuild its lost infrastructure that it possesses - like roads, levees and sewers. There is a difference between community and government. The government only makes, enforces and judge the laws in place. It is up to the community to provide the rest of the duties.

Thank you, Xelebes. I'm glad at least one person was able to read what I wrote and not let political prejudices prevent their understanding it.

 

[Marquis]

This is all really cool and stuff, but I'll take competence with a lack of empathy over empathy with a lack of competence.

Not that I think Clinton was incompetant completely or not. Carter was incompetent, but always seemed the kinda guy I'd trust with the keys to my own house, an incredibly moral and fairminded person.

I don't necessarily need that in my leadership, though it's kinda cool as an add on. I want a pragmatist, someone who can do the things that need doing, maybe someone I'm not always going to adore as a human being.

After the jokes about Trent Lott's house I don't think Bush gives a rat's ass about humanity, has no shame over that fact, and I don't think he is competent after this debacle.

I don't think he should necessarily be in NOLA patting people on shoulders or distributing meals. I want him in the damn whitehouse on the phone telling people what to do.

I think that the competence and empathy thing are pretty well connected. The point is to have empathy + ability, then you have the right kind of competence. I really believe Clinton was a president who cared about his people and wasn't merely trying to push his own agenda at all times. I don't agree with everything he did. I was pissed about him signing the Defense of Marriage Act, but he would've betrayed A LOT of Americans if he vetoed that bill, and I can understand why he did it. I really think Clinton was a better president because he cared. It's a lot harder to answer to a nation of people than it is to answer to a conglomerate of your pops's oil buddies.

That's why Clinton got his blowjobs in the office while Bush gets his on his Texas ranch.

 

[chris9]

Just another worry - has anyone noticed other nations offering their prayers and thoughts? I haven't seen that in the news and if the US is so alienated right now that no one globally cares about our crisis - that really worries me.

Before reading the rest of the thread: Yes, our thoughts are with you. I don't think people will donate as much as they would for poor countries, but newspapers and TV is all stuffed with news from New Orleans.
I have to say though that while thinking of the victims, most here are shocked as hell that the US didn't handle it better in the first days. It feels a bit strange that the US has to rely on help from other nations for the very basics (Germany sent 25 tons of food so far). I just hadn't expected this, I would have thought you would be able to handle such things by yourselves.

 

[chris9]

It has been big news in Europe and from what I have seen on the BBC, there is genuine concern and heartache for the people who have suffered through this disaster, but no sympathy for Bush who they are mostly saying is being shown to despite his big words about providing home security for his own people and being the workld power, not be able to cope or provide that security and care in his own country let alone run the world. There have been stories of people being told to go to Continental in NO to meet buses which will take them to safety, only to be still there over a day later with no water or food and no buses or any other forms of help arriving...stories of people dying in shelters without food or water and having to keep the bodies amongst them in the heat because there is no other option. A lot of discussion has been around the continual requests over the last 12 months in particular to reinforce levees around NO which had been leaking only to be told there was not enough money to do it and it was a low priority financially compared to Iraq. So seems as usual, while many people don't trust or respect Bush, they do care what happens to the American people on a compassionate and humanitarian level. Those who are caught in the devastation of what little remains of NO and other affected areas are being called refugees on the news reports....but not refugees who are receiving help apart from a few national guard sent in to chase looters and shoot to kill.

Catalina

Thanks for putting my thoughts into better words than I was able to do.

 

[chris9]

The hurricane was not a result of global warming. Just like the heatwave through the U.S. this past summer was not caused by global warming. It's just a natural ripple in the weather which causes these extremes. Global warming would mean long term droughts or long term flooding. None of these signify any of these sorts of these extremes since they weren't long-term and aren't creating new climates.

What I read scientists say, yes, Catrina had nothing to do with global warming. But, while there might not be more such storms in the future due to it, they WILL become as strong and stronger than Catrina more and more often. Which should be reason enough to avoid it and prevent it as hell.

 

[chris9]

The idea is that the family would have been helped by the neighbours and friends to make it through this and not the government. The government really has only so much power - to allot new land for temporary residence is only to be vague and is expected by the neighbouring communities to accept those who lost their land. The government is also to help rescue and then rebuild its lost infrastructure that it possesses - like roads, levees and sewers. There is a difference between community and government. The government only makes, enforces and judge the laws in place. It is up to the community to provide the rest of the duties.

I read that some people who wanted to leave the Superdome or the fair halls (as close a translation as I could get to) on foot where forced by gunpower back there. I also read that they were threatened with guns when trying to take food and water from stores where it was rotting anyway, because obviously taking care of yourself, your food and water is considered looting and is worth death. So just tell me HOW they could have helped themselves?
Besides, if a government claims that it has set up a Department for Homeland Security for all kinds of desasters, whether human induced or natural, using the tax money it got from its people, the people DO have the RIGHT to expect the government to help them out.
So, yes, as long as the government doesn't do more than what you state, you're right. But if the government takes up more responsibilities the people have less.