wml

[h_i_s]

I am not moving. I am damn proud to be an American, and am so PISSED that people are criticizing the relief efforts.

Tell that to the people who are STILL without food, water, shelter, & medical attention tonight .... 5 days after the hurricane hit. Tell that to those people who lost their loved ones. Tell it to the people who were raped, and watched children being raped while they all waited for the help to arrive for FIVE days. i'll bet they are a bit more pissed off than you have ever been.

HOW many times, in recent history, has an ENTIRE city just VANISHED? An ENTIRE CITY, people... not just a building... not just a couple of blocks.

More than 3000 people perished during the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. That wasn't enough lives lost in one disaster for this country's government to have gotten their asses in gear and ACT? And act quickly, more adequately .... now .... FOUR YEARS later? Many seem to think so.

An entire city. Please think about that. How do you get people out? Boats, and helicopters.. and from where do you deploy them? and how, until the waters calm, the wind stops, and the danger of tornado's is over?

The waters calmed, wind stopped, and danger of tornados passed (if they ever DO pass, entirely, in that area) .... FOUR days ago. They got people, boats, helicoptors, armed forces, together quicker than that and had them thousands of miles away searching for Bin Laden ... 5 years ago, and it sure as hell didn't take four days for them to arrive on that foreign soil. The same foreign soil that they also sent food for the civilians who lived THERE ... and they reacted a lot quicker than they did for our own people of Louisiana. They deployed them from RIGHT here ... and got them there ... thousands of miles away ... and they did it quickly, and with an adequately organized & effective plan.
And to answer the question of HOW they should have and could have acted quicker in getting the help needed to the people of LA : IN ANY WAY IT TAKES. BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE. If they can do it today .. they could have done it 4 days ago, at least.

How do you get basic essentials to these people?

By any means possible, in any way it takes. Do you realize how many citizens we have who are national guards men/women? How many in the army alone? The Marines? They all signed on for a reason: to serve, and protect the American people. i know many of them. And none that i know personally would not be there in a heartbeat if called to act, and they would have been proud to have been there four or five days ago.

By boat... by helicopter... yes, I have read the news, watched it, and yes, my opinion of Bush is pretty black. I will not be voting for him again. However, lets not leap in and start bashing things before we think them through.

Certainly, lets wait for the NEXT time he drops the ball. Then we can watch him from our TV sets while he flies over head and surveys the damage from his cozy private presidential jet while thousands more below cling to their rooftops and wave their white flags and hold onto their SOS signs for dear life. We should certainly not jump the gun here. He was informed in early 2001 of the potential for this type of disaster to effect Louisiana ..... FIVE years ago. Too bad he spent the money on the war, and decided that the lives of an ENTIRE city of US citizens were not a high enough priority to spend the $$$ on to fix those dikes ... hmmm? i've had FIVE years to think things through, just as he has. i think that as an American, 'leaping in' and feeling disgusted and angered at this point is fair .. levels the playing field a bit .. hmm?

The truth is, yes, there were people that could not afford to leave. But there were others that could have, and didn't, which is bogging down efforts to evacuate those that truly could not.

Those that chose to stay have impended the rescue efforts of those who had no choice in staying. Why am i missing the logic in that statement? Did i miss something here?? How so?? Besides, i don't care HOW they are there, or WHY they are there. The people are not to blame. They deserved quick & adequate rescue efforts regardless of how and why they are there.

Perhaps the planning and logistics might have went a little better, but I'd really like to take a moment and give thanks for the GOOD things. For all the hard working rescuers, to all the police, National Guardsmen, etc. who are risking their lives to help.

Me too, certainly & without a doubt. And when i give my thanks i will remember that when watching the news i saw MORE CIVILIANS than police, or armed forces doing the rescuing & risking their own lives in the first four days, (which is of course at no fault to those individuals). There are too many to be rescued without a full blown effort by the GOV in sending in armed troops and anyone and everyone else that they can send.

C'mon people... quit knocking, start supporting. It's easy to criticize something you have never had to deal with yourself, it isn't so easy to do.

i've been supporting ALL my life ... i pay TAXES. As have my family members, many who had and DO serve in the armed forces of the USA. The Bush and our government fucked up in a big way in regard to the early efforts involving the actions taken to act in saving United States citizens down in Louisiana. Simple as that.

That's my opinion, anyway.

That's mine ... (as well as it is the opinion of many others, i have no doubt).

Our Gov is lacking, and to put it quite plainly sucks in a big way, but the majority of Americans will step up to the plate to help a neighbor, or a stranger in need. i'm proud to be an American... and embarassed by our present officials who make up our government.

 

[h_i_s]

I wonder how many other previous Bush voters spend time pondering this question.

Yeah ... huh?

 

[Netzach]

I dunno, the current crap approval ratings can't only be the half (er, more than half, details, shmeetails) that didn't vote for him.

 

[caela]

1. They had WARNING and KNOWLEDGE of the real potential of the devistation which could result in the event of a hurricane of this level hitting LA ... WAY back in early 2001 ... PRE 9-11.

O.k. I keep seeing and hearing this everyone where I look or listen both online and in RT. The fact is that they've known what could happen to NO if a major hurricane hit it for well over 50 years! Possibly longer. It doesn't take a real genius to figure out that if you build a city surrounded by water, below sea level that the sea and other waters surrounding it are going to do their damnedest to reclaim it.

If you build a city in a bowl don't be surprised when the nature decides to fill it in!

What happened there is a tragedy but bitching that the current administration didn't do enough before hand is silly. Neither had any other administration in the last half century and neither had the state of LA or the city of NO itself.

 

[h_i_s]

O.k. I keep seeing and hearing this everyone where I look or listen both online and in RT. The fact is that they've known what could happen to NO if a major hurricane hit it for well over 50 years! Possibly longer. It doesn't take a real genius to figure out that if you build a city surrounded by water, below sea level that the sea and other waters surrounding it are going to do their damnedest to reclaim it.

If you build a city in a bowl don't be surprised when the nature decides to fill it in!

What happened there is a tragedy but bitching that the current administration didn't do enough before hand is silly. Neither had any other administration in the last half century and neither had the state of LA or the city of NO itself.

You have missed the main point of my comments regarding this subject. Point is (again):

1. Many knew (mainly the Gov) of the potential of many lives to be lost in the event of a hurricane hitting Louisiana.
2. Yes, they'd known for years (the reason why the levee was built in the first place, which at present state is still only 80% completed), and brought renewed attention to the issue in 2001, and STILL the Gov did not care enough to have implimented effective evacuation & recovery plans.
3. The fact that that no one bothered to do enough before hand, in the last half century does not excuse the fact (beside the point of technology having advanced quite a bit over the past 50 years, and we are at a much higher advantatge NOW as compared to then ... might think the Gov would have advanced WITH IT over the years).

As a hypothetical example, say perhaps there was suddenly a shortage of fuel, or a an interuption to a major fuel pipeline leading to Alaska, it would make as much sense to say, "People who live in Alaska SHOULD freeze. They know it is cold there, they shouldn't live there anyway. The Gov shouldn't be expected to have a plan to deal with that. ".

The Gov should be expected to have a plan to react to any natural disaster. They should be expected to LEARN from history, & not repeat it.

 

[Xelebes]

The Gov should be expected to have a plan to react to any natural disaster. They should be expected to LEARN from history, & not repeat it.

What historic event that you speak of that calls for not repeating it?

 

[snowy ciara]

Glad your family came through it okay, KM. hugs I hope this isn't taken as hijacking, but several of our other regulars have been gone for a few days. Most of us are not in the hurricane zone and are perfectly safe, but if you wouldn't mind dropping a line in here and letting us know you're all okay it'd be way cool.

 

[Xelebes]

I would like to thank all of you for your prayers, best wishes, concern, and caring. I am fine we have power but it comes and goes still, phone is up and down as well as internet. We made it truough with a little damage but I am sure that if the storm had come 20 miles more west I am not sure I would be writing this. I wish I could help anyone else that is worried about relatives and friends in the path but alass I am not sure how. things are very confusing at this time with things going on. As to the reason I did not flee well call me stupid but Grandma is 87 and set in her ways, mom is 69 and just as stubborn well like I said call me stupid if you must I just could not leave someone I loved to face it alone and not be there to try to save them. I know how blessed/lucky/yol we were but I would do it again if I have to.
Again Thanks to EVERY ONE and please think in your own way about those less fortunate than I.

Kerker Miester

Good to hear from you. I missed this as the thread swelled three pages.

 

[DVS]

I would like to thank all of you for your prayers, best wishes, concern, and caring. I am fine we have power but it comes and goes still, phone is up and down as well as internet. We made it truough with a little damage but I am sure that if the storm had come 20 miles more west I am not sure I would be writing this. I wish I could help anyone else that is worried about relatives and friends in the path but alass I am not sure how. things are very confusing at this time with things going on. As to the reason I did not flee well call me stupid but Grandma is 87 and set in her ways, mom is 69 and just as stubborn well like I said call me stupid if you must I just could not leave someone I loved to face it alone and not be there to try to save them. I know how blessed/lucky/yol we were but I would do it again if I have to.
Again Thanks to EVERY ONE and please think in your own way about those less fortunate than I.

Kerker Miester

Very glad to hear you made it. I'd be interested to hear of your ordeal, sometime, if you wish to tell us. And, I completely understand your not wanting to leave your mother or grandmother, and you shouldn't have, either. They are family, and I'm sure you would never forgive yourself, if you had left and something happened to them. And, I'm sure they appreciated you staying, too.

 

[graceanne]

Bush is pretty black. I will not be voting for him again.

Not to point out the obvious, but no one could vote for Bush if they wanted to. He can't run again.

Beyond that, he's seriously dropped the ball on the rescue efforts, but he's not the only one who dropped the ball on NO. We've known for a long long time that their was possible problems, and not one of our past presidents has chosen to do anything about it. That includes Clinton. I hold by my normal opinion, all politicians are pathetic idiots, and liars.

KM, so glad to hear from you. And I don't think anyone blamed you for going to stay with your mom and grandma. I'd have done the same.

 

[snowy ciara]

Not to point out the obvious, but no one could vote for Bush if they wanted to. He can't run again.

However, a great many people would appreciate it if you didn't vote for his little brother when he runs. Family values apparently includes helping your big brother steal an election.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

However, a great many people would appreciate it if you didn't vote for his little brother when he runs. Family values apparently includes helping your big brother steal an election.

But Jeb is a lot smarter than W, and a better speaker, too.

 

[snowy ciara]

Ooops. I'd forgotten that I'd made a vow not to go into US politics here since I can't vote in the US... I'm sorry every one. I'll go grab some coffee to wake up my brain and then it's back to insulting Quebecois Frogs now.

 

[serijules]

I suppose they could sneak some people into North Dakota for a few months before the North Dakotan parlaiment would even notice.

I actually think that's exactly what they should do. ND knows how to handle flood victims....Grand Forks was flooded and completely evacuated in...whenever the heck that happened, my memory is shot. But I well remember that flood and how the entire state opened their homes to Grand Forks residents, temp mobile home parks and dorms were erected as quickly as they could fill them, etc. No one was waiting or wanting for anything for long.

Of course, the population of GF is about the same as a couple city blocks in NO, so no comparison really, and the GF flood was slower...people had more time to get out, prepare, etc. Still...food for thought, we certainly have the space. :/ Could probably find room to rebuild NO here, heh.

 

[Marquis]

Beyond that, he's seriously dropped the ball on the rescue efforts, but he's not the only one who dropped the ball on NO. We've known for a long long time that their was possible problems, and not one of our past presidents has chosen to do anything about it. That includes Clinton. I hold by my normal opinion, all politicians are pathetic idiots, and liars.

I'm sorry to jump on you here Grace, but as much as I try not to waste my breath on political debates, there are certain patterns of thought that simply make me want to gouge my own eyes out.

The new, "I may be a Republican but I want to fit in too!" thing to do seems to be to point out that Bush is an asshole, but hey, who really gives a fuck who we vote for because politicians all suck, right?

WRONG.

WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON WAS A GREAT PRESIDENT. Not just because we share an Alma Mater, but because of the incredible reforms he made in our country during his time in office. Clinton gets blamed for everything from the economy to 9-11 with the most blatantly specious arguments you could possibly hear.

Now you are going to blame Clinton for the state of FEMA? He "did nothing" right? President Clinton appointed James Lee Witt for the position of FEMA. In that time FEMA went through more reforms than any other time in its past since its inception. Not only that, but Witt was an extremely well educated, experienced and qualified person for the job. You can tell because he did an awesome job. Clinton also raised this position to the cabinet level because he thought disaster management was so important.

Bush on the other hand appointed his former campaign manager and chief of staff Joe Allbaugh. Ahhh, you gotta love the good 'ol boys. The way the molest the common man in this country is done so artfully, I gotta respect it from a Dom's perspective.

But hey, our President may suck balls, but he's only human right? We don't really deserve a good leader anyway, so lets just shut up and deal with it like good citizens! Maybe we'll get another couple hundred dollar bribe, I mean tax cut.

How many people would rather give back the tax cut and get back the extra money we've spent on gas?

 

[Xelebes]

Bill Clinton may have been great but he also had flaws. Though I doubt there is much blame to lay on Clinton. I think that is much scapegoating there.

Edit - Also, Clinton didn't do much to help build defenses for NO, just like the other presidents. NO would have been a low priority for most of the presidents, despite the fact there is so much important industry placed around that city.

 

[h_i_s]

What historic event that you speak of that calls for not repeating it?

i'm puzzled that you ask.

IE: ANY event of which occurs during time, including but not limited to natural disasters which result in lives having been lost/threatened. i use the phrase historical to describe an event that has happened in the past, which can be studied and learned from.

One recent example would be the terrorist attacks of 9-11. We were not prepared to prevent it from occuring. We were barely capable of responding to the disasterous events which occured on that day. It was widely expressed by many that we would learn from it in hope of preventing anything like it from happening again. It was expressed to the people of the United States, by the GOV that measures & plans would be put into place so that this country would be prepared to respond quickly, and adequately with orderly procedures should such a large number of lives be threatened in the future. Perhaps you are not applying the same expectations for the people effected by Katrina simple because it was a natural occurance rather than a foreign or terrorist threat? i don't know though because as i said, i AM puzzled that you ask.

Regardless of origin of threat, the people effected by Katrina should have received help much quicker. Natural disasters are NOT always expected, just as a terrorist attack could is not always predictable. Either can happen at any moment with no warning. The GOV should have been prepared to act much quicker than they have/are. It shouldn't take 4 or 5 days to pack up some bottled water, ready to eat meals, trucks, and gather enough troops to deliver it, and ACT ... unless of course, they have learned nothing from history of the importance & benefit of being prepared at all times, and READY to act.

 

[Xelebes]

Just how do you imagine we be prepared for something like this?

Average container capacity = 5,400 kg (11,930 lbs)

Average water consumption per person per day = 2L (2kg) (4.4lbs)

Average food consumption per person per day = 2 kg (4.4lbs)

Average MRE consumption per person = 5~20 kg (11~44lbs)

Number of people stranded = 30,000+

We are talking about 300,000~720,000 kg (660,000~1,584,000 lbs) that has to be shipped by truck (since ports are useless). And that is a minimum. The need exceeds 1 kiloton and could climg as high as 5 kilotons. That is at least 200 truckloads that need to get there and as much as 1,000 truckloads.

The logistics game is not for the ragtag pre-planning prevention whatever. The circumstances go above and beyond any ability to press on with the pre-planning. I never expect an agency to be planned for disasters like this, even in Canada. Once Vancouver sinks, I do not expect the Canadian government to be prepared for it.

So basically, I'm calling for patience and not to get the hatred at political figureheads for not doing enough. There is lots to do and lots to figure out what to do.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Asked later how the richest country on Earth could not meet the needs of its people, Bush said "I am satisfied with the response. I am not satisfied with all the results."

*shakes head*

LOL, the BS seems to be flying....was listening to a BBC interbview with a spokesperson who was crowing about how they had 9 million army ration meals ready to take to the survivors today andhow good they were and the government was to be arranging this. the reporter asked why the response was s slow and disorganised...the response was that it was far from disorganised and that everything had been put in place and arranged before Katrina even got near Florida. the reporter pointed out that if they were that organised why did it take almost a week from when it hit NO to get help to the people who were lucky enough to be still clinging to life....he was told, these things take time to which eh replied 'but you just said it was all organised and ready to go before anything happened'....the guy did not have a response but had something urgent to attend to.

Catalina

 

[h_i_s]

LOL, the BS seems to be flying....was listening to a BBC interbview with a spokesperson who was crowing about how they had 9 million army ration meals ready to take to the survivors today andhow good they were and the government was to be arranging this. the reporter asked why the response was s slow and disorganised...the response was that it was far from disorganised and that everything had been put in place and arranged before Katrina even got near Florida. the reporter pointed out that if they were that organised why did it take almost a week from when it hit NO to get help to the people who were lucky enough to be still clinging to life....he was told, these things take time to which eh replied 'but you just said it was all organised and ready to go before anything happened'....the guy did not have a response but had something urgent to attend to.

Catalina

This is exactly what i am talking about. TY! Catalina. i can't count HOW many times you have saved me the time of having to type a responce ... LOL.

If they could just stop bullshitting everyone for one damned second, and ADMIT that what they promised to be prepared for, and what they still insist on claiming on stating in regard to claims of having been prepared .... maybe THAT would be a bit more acceptable.

There is your answer, Xelebes. Catalina said it best, no need for me to type it all out.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I am not moving. I am damn proud to be an American, and am so PISSED that people are criticizing the relief efforts.

HOW many times, in recent history, has an ENTIRE city just VANISHED? An ENTIRE CITY, people... not just a building... not just a couple of blocks.

An entire city. Please think about that. How do you get people out? Boats, and helicopters.. and from where do you deploy them? and how, until the waters calm, the wind stops, and the danger of tornado's is over?

How do you get basic essentials to these people?

By boat... by helicopter... yes, I have read the news, watched it, and yes, my opinion of Bush is pretty black. I will not be voting for him again. However, lets not leap in and start bashing things before we think them through.

The truth is, yes, there were people that could not afford to leave. But there were others that could have, and didn't, which is bogging down efforts to evacuate those that truly could not.

Perhaps the planning and logistics might have went a little better, but I'd really like to take a moment and give thanks for the GOOD things. For all the hard working rescuers, to all the police, National Guardsmen, etc. who are risking their lives to help.

C'mon people... quit knocking, start supporting. It's easy to criticize something you have never had to deal with yourself, it isn't so easy to do.

That's my opinion, anyway.

Hmmm, well the most common reference here is to the tsunami at the beginning of this year where there was an instant response despite it being in a poorer region with far less resources. Yes, other countries came to their aid in the following days and weeks and months, but the first responses were from their own government and people, and there was food and water and collection arangements for bodies sent to even the remotest villages unlike the US where there are still towns which have not had any aid whatsoever, or anyone even come near them to help....not to mention the dead bodies mounting up with no-one there to help move them, and many of them dying as a result of the lack of response which if it had been even fractionally better and quicker would have seen many of those people still alive.

That is why people are bitching, because there is a valid reason to and one which has raised a few unsavoury speculations as to why Bush seems to think those people less important than killing people in a country which he has been exposed to have no valid reason for invading. Even the response with heavily armed police and military who offer no aid to those in the aftermath of Katrina but threaten to kill seems to speak volumes that killing is all the government understands or cares about....sheeesh, the order is to shoot to kill anyone suspected of looting!!! If you were in that situation with children or family starving, dying of dehydration and illness, wouldn't you take what you needed to save them and yourself when it was apparent there was not going to be another choice, no-one else interested in saving you, no rescue?

Catalina

 

[babiesmiles]

I would like to thank all of you for your prayers, best wishes, concern, and caring. I am fine we have power but it comes and goes still, phone is up and down as well as internet. We made it truough with a little damage but I am sure that if the storm had come 20 miles more west I am not sure I would be writing this. I wish I could help anyone else that is worried about relatives and friends in the path but alass I am not sure how. things are very confusing at this time with things going on. As to the reason I did not flee well call me stupid but Grandma is 87 and set in her ways, mom is 69 and just as stubborn well like I said call me stupid if you must I just could not leave someone I loved to face it alone and not be there to try to save them. I know how blessed/lucky/yol we were but I would do it again if I have to.
Again Thanks to EVERY ONE and please think in your own way about those less fortunate than I.

Kerker Miester

I am glad you and yours are safe . It must be tough and awful times for all you living in that area, but know we, even in the far Europe, keep sending good thoughts and prayers for people so awfully hit by that disaster moreover international solidarity towards affected states and towns is raising every day more.
You can call me utopistic but we live all on the same planet , so in my opinion a disaster which affects even a single area in my feelings is like it is affecting us all .
Have all my good feelings and good vibes . b.

 

[shy slave]

I would like to thank all of you for your prayers, best wishes, concern, and caring. I am fine we have power but it comes and goes still, phone is up and down as well as internet. We made it truough with a little damage but I am sure that if the storm had come 20 miles more west I am not sure I would be writing this. I wish I could help anyone else that is worried about relatives and friends in the path but alass I am not sure how. things are very confusing at this time with things going on. As to the reason I did not flee well call me stupid but Grandma is 87 and set in her ways, mom is 69 and just as stubborn well like I said call me stupid if you must I just could not leave someone I loved to face it alone and not be there to try to save them. I know how blessed/lucky/yol we were but I would do it again if I have to.
Again Thanks to EVERY ONE and please think in your own way about those less fortunate than I.

Kerker Miester

Glad to here you and your family are safe.
Thanks for letting us know
Take care xxxx

 

[catalina_francisco]

WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON WAS A GREAT PRESIDENT. Not just because we share an Alma Mater, but because of the incredible reforms he made in our country during his time in office.

Clinton is a favourite of mine for a number of reasons, 3 of which are:

He has warm red bood running in his veins to the extent he can still get an erection over an attractive, willing woman as opposed to a hard on from money and power...

And he has integrity and a conscience...he fucked up with Rwanda and has been big enough to not only admit it publicly and often(the only high powered person who ever has), but is still making regular visits and contact with that country in an effort to offer genuine help in whatever way he can....that to me is a leader and a human worth his weight in gold....

And he is more interested in helping those who are not at the top or middle of the economic ladder and from his own roots has developed a real understanding and love of those people and their lives....unlike many who rise to high positions, he does not forget and pretend the poor and disadvantaged do not exist while hoping they will just disappear in silence.

Catalina

 

[Killishandra]

I would like to thank all of you for your prayers, best wishes, concern, and caring. I am fine we have power but it comes and goes still, phone is up and down as well as internet. We made it truough with a little damage but I am sure that if the storm had come 20 miles more west I am not sure I would be writing this. I wish I could help anyone else that is worried about relatives and friends in the path but alass I am not sure how. things are very confusing at this time with things going on. As to the reason I did not flee well call me stupid but Grandma is 87 and set in her ways, mom is 69 and just as stubborn well like I said call me stupid if you must I just could not leave someone I loved to face it alone and not be there to try to save them. I know how blessed/lucky/yol we were but I would do it again if I have to.
Again Thanks to EVERY ONE and please think in your own way about those less fortunate than I.

Kerker Miester

I know many of us here have been watching and waiting for news of you and your family. Thank you for letting us know you are all right... I know there are many thoughts and prayers going out to you and all the people of New Orleans.