Why Liberals Don’t Understand Conservatives

[ll74]

Yes, it's called Moral Foundations Theory, and it's very much evidence-based. Everyone who wants to understand should read The Righteous Mind.

Some people use religion for their moral foundations.

Which is not at all evidence based.

 

[icanhelp1]

Liberals don't understand conservatives because they don't know what it's like to truly fear or be disgusted by someone with a fundamentally different identity.

The left is working extremely hard at authenticity and when they become proficient at faking it it's off to the races.

 

[JohnEngelman]

And that was one of its worst effects.

What I liked about the New Deal of President Franklin Roosevelt is that it shifted wealth, power, and prestige from the business community to the government. Businessmen were culture heroes during the 1920's. During the 1930's they were blamed for the Great Depression. That enabled the Democrats to impose confiscatory taxes on them, and plenty of burdensome regulations.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

What I liked about the New Deal of President Franklin Roosevelt is that it shifted wealth, power, and prestige from the business community to the government. Businessmen were culture heroes during the 1920's. During the 1930's they were blamed for the Great Depression. That enabled the Democrats to impose confiscatory taxes on them, and plenty of burdensome regulations.

While transferring a lot of that wealth to the working classes. Of course WWII was even more effective (for the US).

 

[big_cane_sugar]

The left is working extremely hard at authenticity and when they become proficient at faking it it's off to the races.

Speaking of non-sequiturs, green is a lovely color.

 

[SkyBubble]

I actually read what you wrote with some interest, as it looks like you are really trying to get a logical rational dialogue going here.

Yes, and it's hard to do with people who are convinced they know what "actual" conservatism is better than conservatives do.

But there is conservative, and there is extreme. The extremists, contrary to what you state in your essay, really do want to see the rights and priveleges of minorities and women restricted. And they really do wish to see an iron-fisted, authoritarian government step in and remove and/or restrict long-standing freedoms.

Which is not conservative.

When people's freedoms are attacked, it is not unreasonable to expect them to rise up in defense. This is what leads to conflicts.

This is true; this is one of the problems with cancel culture, with things like the Obama administration spying on journalists and running guns to the Mexican cartels, with letters describing parents who speak out at school board meetings as domestic terrorists, with NSA collecting metadata on all of us and lying about it, with things like Operation Arctic Frost, with using the court system against political opponents, and so much else that our government has done.

True conservatives respect the principle of liberty, and of "live and let live." They might live a much more strict lifestyle and frown upon the choices of others, but they respect other's rights to make such different choices, as long as these choices do not impact them.

I'm not required to celebrate your choices; don't ask me to. And don't try to sell me the idea that counting by race or gender or orientation or whatever other surface factor is ""justice." If you say it's none of my business (I agree), stop telling me about it. But other than keeping order enough for liberty to flourish and protecting us from invasion, I mostly want the government to leave us alone.

Most Trump followers are Extremists, not traditional conservatives.

Many. The most prominent ones. But I would argue that most of his supporters are conservative. Unfortunately, he isn't. He's a populist.

Also, extremists often lack the ability to debate honestly or reasonably. They will spout outright lies or ridiculous conspiracy "Theories" as fact (e.g. "Trump rightfully won the 2020 election!" or "Jews control the media!") even after they are debunked. They will resort to name calling (e.g. "If you believe in social justice for minorities you are a 'Woke communist!'") To be fair, some left-wing extremists do this too- but again, these are not liberals or conservatives. They are extremists. I've tried having rational discussions with people like this. It typically does not end well.

It's unfortunately true on all sides. I know libertarians who are like that.

 

[SkyBubble]

No, he won't, because he's one of them. I honestly do not think he sees the disconnect between what he claims conservatives stand for, and what they're actually doing. Which is understandable up to a point, as they've been lying to everyone including themselves about it at least since Reagan.

IOW, not doing or saying what you pretend that conservatives do and say.

If you're talking about MAGA, that's not conservative. They've implemented some policies that are conservative and a number that are not in any way conservative. I think Gov. DeSantis was right to call them "listless vessels."

 

[SkyBubble]

Some people use religion for their moral foundations.

Which is not at all evidence based.

Which is why Haidt didn't consider it as a factor.

 

[SkyBubble]

What I liked about the New Deal of President Franklin Roosevelt is that it shifted wealth, power, and prestige from the business community to the government.

That is not a good thing. Government is one of the worst possible places it can go.

The New Deal made the Great Depression deeper and longer and established numerous agencies to regulate our lives and take away our choices, many of which still exist.

 

[icanhelp1]

Yes, and it's hard to do with people who are convinced they know what "actual" conservatism is better than conservatives do.

Which is not conservative.

This is true; this is one of the problems with cancel culture, with things like the Obama administration spying on journalists and running guns to the Mexican cartels, with letters describing parents who speak out at school board meetings as domestic terrorists, with NSA collecting metadata on all of us and lying about it, with things like Operation Arctic Frost, with using the court system against political opponents, and so much else that our government has done.

I'm not required to celebrate your choices; don't ask me to. And don't try to sell me the idea that counting by race or gender or orientation or whatever other surface factor is ""justice." If you say it's none of my business (I agree), stop telling me about it. But other than keeping order enough for liberty to flourish and protecting us from invasion, I mostly want the government to leave us alone.


Many. The most prominent ones. But I would argue that most of his supporters are conservative. Unfortunately, he isn't. He's a populist.

It's unfortunately true on all sides. I know libertarians who are like that.

True liberals are a dying breed, that's why people have difficulty explaining it. There are very few liberals left in the democratic party. Marxist are not liberals.

 

[ll74]

Which is why Haidt didn't consider it as a fator.

If you're discussing moral foundations, which many people based on religion, then religion is a factor.

 

[Lazaran]

The left is working extremely hard at authenticity and when they become proficient at faking it it's off to the races.

ineedhelp1 and the rest of the MAGAts are authentically racist, fascistic, misogynistic (pedophile protecting / supporting), and corrupt (criminal protecting / supporting).

ineedhelp1 and the rest of the MAGAts have already won their race to the bottom.



We. Told. Them. So.

 

[icanhelp1]

IOW, not doing or saying what you pretend that conservatives do and say.

If you're talking about MAGA, that's not conservative. They've implemented some policies that are conservative and a number that are not in any way conservative. I think Gov. DeSantis was right to call them "listless vessels."

MAGA is a slogan not a party. I'm a constitutional conservative and I believe in making America great again. If you say Trump isn't a conservative you'd be right.

 

[SkyBubble]

If you're discussing moral foundations, which many people based on religion, then religion is a factor.

Not in the scientific sense. Religion is the framework from which many people -- probably most -- draw their moral values. But it's not a specific value or foundation in and of itself. What Haidt was looking at was more specific than just a broad framework. What specific things do you draw from your religion (or lack of same) that serve as the foundations of your moral worldview?

 

[SkyBubble]

MAGA is a slogan not a party. I'm a constitutional conservative and I believe in making America great again. If you say Trump isn't a conservative you'd be right.

MAGA began as a slogan (which Trump ripped off from Reagan, BTW, then claimed otherwise.) The slogan gave its initials as the name of Trump's populist movement.

 

[icanhelp1]

ineedhelp1 and the rest of the MAGAts are authentically racist, fascistic, misogynistic (pedophile protecting / supporting), and corrupt (criminal protecting / supporting).

ineedhelp1 and the rest of the MAGAts have already won their race to the bottom.



We. Told. Them. So.

And you're a perfect POS. LAZ

 

[icanhelp1]

MAGA began as a slogan (which Trump ripped off from Reagan, BTW, then claimed otherwise.) The slogan gave its initials as the name of Trump's populist movement.

I agree Trump is a populist. The left uses MAGA as a pejorative.

 

[ll74]

Not in the scientific sense.

Lol...morals are a human construct.
Most humans construct them on religious baselines

Scientifically, they are relevant because of that.

Religion is the framework from which many people -- probably most -- draw their moral values. But it's not a specific value or foundation in and of itself. What Haidt was looking at was more specific than just a broad framework. What specific things do you draw from your religion (or lack of same) that serve as the foundations of your moral worldview?

Morals aren't a definitive measure.
They are a relative.measure.
Unless you want to discuss the morals of giraffes.

 

[SkyBubble]

I agree Trump is a populist. The left uses MAGA as a pejorative.

Because they don't understand what MAGA is or what conservatism is.

 

[SkyBubble]

Lol...morals are a human construct.
Most humans construct them on religious baselines

Scientifically, they are relevant because of that.


Morals aren't a definitive measure.
They are a relative.measure.
Unless you want to discuss the morals of giraffes.

Are you missing the point on purpose?

 

[ll74]

Are you missing the point on purpose?

You're deciding religion doesn't matter when it does.

You can't study morals without also studying religious baselines and undertones.

 

[icanhelp1]

Because they don't understand what MAGA is or what conservatism is.

And leftist who self identify as liberal don't understand what liberalism is, and certainly can't differentiate between liberalism, libertarianism or conservatism. MAGAT means Trump voter, that's the extent of their misunderstanding.

Usually the same people who can't differentiate anti-Semitism from anti-Zionism.

 

[ll74]

And leftist who self identify as liberal don't understand what liberalism is, and certainly can't differentiate between liberalism, libertarianism or conservatism. MAGAT means Trump voter, that's the extent of their misunderstanding.

Usually the same people who can't differentiate anti-Semitism from anti-Zionism.

MAGA isn't conservative. MAGA is a cult of personality.

 

[Bn2f]

Conservatism is the act of self accountability and meritocracy.

I won't waste anyone's time with examples of conservatives displaying no accountability or respect for meritocracy. trump

 

[icanhelp1]

Not in the scientific sense. Religion is the framework from which many people -- probably most -- draw their moral values. But it's not a specific value or foundation in and of itself. What Haidt was looking at was more specific than just a broad framework. What specific things do you draw from your religion (or lack of same) that serve as the foundations of your moral worldview?

I would think moral values are more of a philosophical principal rather than scientific.

I would think religion is the foundation for moral values based on the 10 commandments, Yamas and Niyamas, and precepts. IMHO