Why Islam is disrespected

[Gringao]

It's because these rightwingers never can justify it.

They can't deal with the truth that there wonderful government is run by evil people who gladly slaughter hundreds of thousands, even millions of innocent civilians, and are no better than any other national government.

Back to the boilerplate, eh, toots? What is it lawyers say - if the law's on your side, argue the law; if the facts are on your side, argue the facts; if neither are on your side, pound the lectern.

 

[Rex1960]

12:37 am EST here and yes I'm still up.

Some people work nightshifts ... what a concept

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Back to the boilerplate, eh, toots? What is it lawyers say - if the law's on your side, argue the law; if the facts are on your side, argue the facts; if neither are on your side, pound the lectern.

It sounds like the lectern has been pounding you.

PS: No one will ever show how rural areas could have been affordably served without the REI. You lost that debate. Now that you're running away I figured I'd rub your nose into it every time I catch you posting on Lit.

 

[Gringao]

It sounds like the lectern has been pounding you.

Still sore from that ass-kickin' are you?

 

[Rex1960]

Some people work nightshifts ... what a concept

Ish,

now that I'm quoting myself instead of you .... i better hit the hay, huh?

That's pretty much like one Sexual Online Role Play Partner supports the other here in a political discussion.

 

[Ishmael]

Ish,

now that I'm quoting myself instead of you .... i better hit the hay, huh?

That's pretty much like one Sexual Online Role Play Partner supports the other here in a political discussion.

Rest up dude. The lawn needs mowing.

Ishmael

 

[Veryknowing]

Back to the boilerplate, eh, toots? What is it lawyers say - if the law's on your side, argue the law; if the facts are on your side, argue the facts; if neither are on your side, pound the lectern.

The lectern is pounding you big time.

Neither you, Ishmael, Miles, Ham Murabi, or any of your other alts or whatever guise you take has been able to defeat the whole point of this argument; the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not necessary to win the war, and if the USA had accepted the same surrender conditions (which by their actions) they eventually abided by ANYWAY, then the war would've been over at least two weeks earlier, and hundreds of thousands of civilians would not have been horribly massacred in an act of genocide.

 

[Gringao]

The lectern is pounding you big time.

Neither you, Ishmael, Miles, Ham Murabi, or any of your other alts or whatever guise you take has been able to defeat the whole point of this argument; the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not necessary to win the war, and if the USA had accepted the same surrender conditions (which by their actions) they eventually abided by ANYWAY, then the war would've been over at least two weeks earlier, and hundreds of thousands of civilians would not have been horribly massacred in an act of genocide.

I'm glad you finally admit that the Allies did not accept preconditions to Japan's surrender (see bold text). It's a start.

So what should have been the targets, given that Japan had not accepted the terms of surrender?

 

[Lovelynice]

Read the surrender documents and see what "conditions" the Allies accepted.

In short, just because the Allies allowed the Emperor to continue after the occupation does not mean this was a condition that was accepted at the time of surrender. The Instrument of Surrender makes amply clear that had the Allies decided the Emperor was an impediment to the pacification of Japan, he would have been removed from that status.

VK thinks that if he repeats the same specious nonsense long enough it will become fact. Are you of the same kidney, Miss?

Um, just noticed this, but there's also no Imperial Seal stamped on those documents either.

I don't see how you can argue that it's a "specious nonsense" when the original point was that the dropping of nuclear horror weapons on Hiroshima & Nagasaki...was blatant evidence of the US military deliberately targetting civilians and civilian installations...

Can you prove that the U.S. Military sets out to kill noncombatants and destroy civilian installations?

So, it looks like they really do, don't they?

As has been shown by all the other previous posts, the element which you & Ishmael & Ham Murabi & Stuponfucious can't deny, is that the USA did indeed set out to deliberately massacre noncombatants and destroy civilian installations.

You keep dodging this main point because you know that you can't show otherwise.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

It's my understanding that Allied estimates for the invasion of the Japanese home islands were upwards of 800,000 lives (over three times American casualties to that point in the Pacific and European theaters combined). The two bombings which forced the issue of surrender caused what? 100,000 deaths? Japanese civilians killed by the bombs certainly not have been spared in a conventional invasion (in fact, in the American invasion of Islands in the South Pacific and on Okinawa, Japanese civilians actively committed suicide en masse rather than surrender. So a conventional invasion would've been a bloodbath almost on the order of the European Eastern Front.

So from a strict body-for-body perspective, I don't think it can be argued that lives were saved, assuming there was no other way of ending the war. The Japanese will to continue fighting was immense. Try to imagine a regime that requires two A-bombs to force their surrender (and Japanese government officials later said they only surrendered at that point because they believed the Americans had more A-bombs, which they did not - had the Japanese not surrendered after Nagasaki, America would have still had to invade the home islands. Imagine that.)

Could the war have been stopped without the A-bomb or a bloody invasion of the home islands? I suppose we could've perhaps continuing to firebomb Japanese cities (after all the firebombing of Tokyo on the first night killed more people than those died in Nagasaki).

I think to a great degree, we've forgotten how absolutely abominable WWII was. It was on scale it's hard for us to comprehend today. We've lost 1600 in Iraq. We lost 325,000 in WWII. The Japanese lost 1.75 million. The Russians - 20 million.

I find it very difficult to work through moral dilemmas on that scale. it's hard to justify any of it.

 

[Veryknowing]

I'm glad you finally admit that the Allies did not accept preconditions to Japan's surrender (see bold text). It's a start.

So what should have been the targets, given that Japan had not accepted the terms of surrender?

You must be mixing me up with someone else.

I have said all along the same point;

The Japanese offered a conditional surrender weeks before the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki; protect the status of the Emperor

The USA by their actions accepted that single condition; the Emperor's status was protected.

It's what happened.

Therefore the excuse that it was necessary to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki to save a million US soldier's lives is a load of bullshit.

 

[Gringao]

Um, just noticed this, but there's also no Imperial Seal stamped on those documents either.

LMAO....are you still clinging to the "they're fradulent!!" nonsense?

Of course there's no fucking Imperial Seal on them. They're Allied documents. The Japanese Empire didn't exist anymore.

I don't see how you can argue that it's a "specious nonsense" when the original point was that the dropping of nuclear horror weapons on Hiroshima & Nagasaki...was blatant evidence of the US military deliberately targetting civilians and civilian installations...

Okay...what should have been the targets?

 

[Veryknowing]

It's my understanding that Allied estimates for Japanese home islands were upwards of 800,000 lives....

Don't worry about it. Your understanding of the situation is flawed.

The Japanese offered surrender with a single condition (weeks before the nukes being dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki) that the USA eventually accepted anyway by what they actually did (the Emperor's status was protected), and could've done so in July, ending the war.

That would've saved a lot more lives, and 350,000 Japanese civilians wouldn't have been slaughtered in a radioactive inferno, suffering the flesh being boiled from their bones, and many of the survivors of the initial bombing dying from radiation illnesses.

 

[Ishmael]

LMAO....are you still clinging to the "they're fradulent!!" nonsense?

Of course there's no fucking Imperial Seal on them. They're Allied documents. The Japanese Empire didn't exist anymore.



Okay...what should have been the targets?

The target would have been Tokyo except we were smart enough to know that there had to be be a central authority left.

What the Chinese are demanding and we are too polite to point out is that the Japanese were barabaric pieces of shit. They still are racist garbage. To listen to a japanese citizen attempt to twist that fact borders on insanity.

Ishmael

 

[Veryknowing]

Okay...what should have been the targets?

Military installatons. Nothing more.

Entire cities are not valid as military targets and never have been.

 

[Gringao]

The USA by their actions accepted that single condition; the Emperor's status was protected.

It's what happened.

No it wasn't. Exactly what status should the US have accepted for the Emperor prior to surrender? Figurehead? Deity? Wielder of supreme executive power?

Japan surrendered and the Emperor became just another bureaucrat, subject to dismissal if he became an impediment to an orderly occupation. Protect his imperial status as a precondition and political ambiguity takes hold.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Don't worry about it. Your understanding of the situation is flawed.

The Japanese offered surrender with a single condition (weeks before the nukes being dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki) that the USA eventually accepted anyway by what they actually did (the Emperor's status was protected), and could've done so in July, ending the war.

That would've saved a lot more lives, and 350,000 Japanese civilians wouldn't have been slaughtered in a radioactive inferno, suffering the flesh being boiled from their bones, and many of the survivors of the initial bombing dying from radiation illnesses.

I wasn't aware of that. It's a very interesting point and muddies the waters morally if true. Got a link?

Do you think that with 325,000 American lives lost our politicians could've realistically settled for a conditional surrender?

 

[Gringao]

I wasn't aware of that. It's a very interesting point and muddies the waters morally if true. Got a link?

Do you think that with 325,000 American lives lost our politicians would've realistically settled for a conditional surrender?

The Japanese had been suing for peace through the Soviets, with whom they were not yet at war (the Soviets entered the war against Japan after the bombs were dropped), and wanted the Emperor's status maintained as a condition of surrender. The Allies, however, had demanded unconditional surrender from Japan and rejected the condition.

 

[Veryknowing]

Japan surrendered and the Emperor became just another bureaucrat, .

Geez you are really shovelling the bullshit now aren't you!

The Japanese Emperor couldn't be dismissed or removed from his position by the USA military no matter what the fuck was written on a piece of paper. That's the reality. Wake up to it.

 

[Lovelynice]

Of course there's no fucking Imperial Seal on them. They're Allied documents. The Japanese Empire didn't exist anymore.

However, the Japanese Imperial institution did. You can't have a surrender document signed with a non-existent opposite side.

The USA and it's allies had no way of avoiding official legal recognition of the Japanese government in any document of surrender.

The Imperial Seal would be on those documents, if they were the real deal. By not having the Imperial Seal, these are not the real documents.

According to that first link you posted, the Imperial Seal is on the original documents, but the document images that you have linked to...have no Imperial Seal. So, they aren't images of the original document.

Okay...what should have been the targets?

You can't dodge the issue.

It's perfectly okay to target military installations within a city, but an entire city full of civilians is NOT a legitimate target even in wartime.

The US military deliberately attacked noncombatants and civilian installations.

 

[Gringao]

Geez you are really shovelling the bullshit now aren't you!

The Japanese Emperor couldn't be dismissed or removed from his position by the USA military no matter what the fuck was written on a piece of paper. That's the reality. Wake up to it.

Read the surrender documents. There's not a thing in there that would have prevented it. The Emperor was subordinate to the decisions of the Allied occupation authority. Period.

 

[Rex1960]

I envy your stamina to discuss the Encyclopedia back and forth without looking at this fantastic AV of lovelynice and ... nevermind ...

 

[Gringao]

You can't dodge the issue.

It's perfectly okay to target military installations within a city, but an entire city full of civilians is NOT a legitimate target even in wartime.

The US military deliberately attacked noncombatants and civilian installations.

Yep.

As for the documents question, I'll demur so you don't have to embarrass yourself any more.

 

[Veryknowing]

The Japanese had been suing for peace through the Soviets, with whom they were not yet at war (the Soviets entered the war against Japan after the bombs were dropped), and wanted the Emperor's status maintained as a condition of surrender.

The Japanese had also offered surrender with the same condition right after the Potsdam Treaty, not just through the Soviets. They'd tried repeatedly to offer surrender, and the USA basically ignored them while preparing the nukes to be dropped on Japan.

The Allies, however, had demanded unconditional surrender from Japan and rejected the condition.

But the USA ended up accepting the condition anyway. Hirohito stayed Emperor, and the Imperial institution remained in it's protected position.

 

[Gringao]

But the USA ended up accepting the condition anyway. Hirohito stayed Emperor, and the Imperial institution remained in it's protected position.

In honor of the race this weekend, I'll bestow the title of "Indy Racecar Driver" upon you and give you a Playskool dashboard, complete with honking steering wheel. You'll be as much in control of an Indy car as Hirohito was in control of Japan on September 3, 1945.