Why does the myth of Columbus persist?

[cloudy]

Dran and I were talking about this this morning....the legend of Madoc and the people who followed him here from Wales around 1170. There's so much evidence that suggests it was him, and not Columbus, who was the first white man to settle here in the Americas. Why do the history books still teach Columbus?

In 1170 A.D., a certain Welsh prince, Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd, sailed away from his homeland, which was filled with war and strife and battles between his brothers. Yearning to be away from the feuds and quarrels, he took his ships and headed west, seeking a better place. He returned to Wales brimming with tales of the new land he found--warm and golden and fair. His tales convinced more than a few of his fellow countrymen, and many left with him to return to this wondrous new land, far across the sea.

This wondrous new land is believed to be what is now Mobile Bay, Alabama. Time has left several blank pages between the legend of Madoc and the "history" of America, with its reports of white Indians who speak Welsh, and these blank pages have been the subject of much controversy in certain circles over the five centuries since Columbus discovered the New World.

There is a series of pre-Columbian forts built up the Alabama River, and the tradition handed down by the Cherokee Indians of the "White People" who built them. Testimony includes a letter dated 1810 from Governor John Seiver of Tennessee in response to an inquiry by Major Amos Stoddard. The letter, a copy of which is on file at the Georgia Historical Commission, recounts a 1782 conversation Sevier had with then 90-year-old Oconosoto, a Cherokee, who had been the ruling chief of the Cherokee Nation for nearly sixty years. Seiver had asked the Chief about the people who had left the "fortifications" in his country. The chief told him: "they were a people called Welsh and they had crossed the Great Water." He called their leader "Modok." If true, this fits with the known history of 12th century Welsh Prince Madoc. He further related: "It is handed down by the Forefathers that the works had been made by the White people who had formerly inhabited the country. . ." and gave him a brief history of the "Whites." When asked if he had ever heard what nation these Whites had belonged to, Oconostota told Seiver that he ". . .had heard his grandfather and father say they were a people called Welsh, and that they had crossed the Great Water and landed first near the mouth of the Alabama River near Mobile. . .."

Three major forts, completely unlike any known Indian structure, were constructed along the route settlers arriving at Mobile Bay would have taken up the Alabama and Coosa rivers to the Chattanooga area. Archaeologists have testified that the forts are of pre-Columbian origin, and most agree they date several hundred years before 1492. All are believed to have been built by the same group of people within the period of a single generation, and all bear striking similarities to the ancient fortifications of Wales.

The first fort, erected on top of Lookout Mountain, near DeSoto Falls, Alabama, was found to be nearly identical in setting, layout, and method of construction, to Dolwyddelan Castle in Gwynedd, the birthplace of Madoc.

This info was pulled from this site, but there's information literally everywhere about it.

 

[Guest]

its cheaper to not have to rewrite history, is my guess.
My father was the president of the Gungywamp Society here in Ct. the artifacts and evidence they found fully supports the fact that the columbus theory is a crock. still, even with carbon dating, the scholars are not willing to accept this.
why?
who knows but im secure in the knowledge that it werent him what discovered... btw...
how can something be discovered when, clearly, there were inhabitants?
come on people, wake up and smell the pequots!
my scattered thoughts anyway.

 

[eric shawn listo]

Besides, then we'd have get rid of Colubus Day. And we Americans can't live without our holidays. I mean, the kids would have to go to school, learn something new, maybe about this Madoc fella.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

It's simple. Columbus's discovery led to the lasting colonization of the New World that changed things forever. The others didn't.

---dr.M.

 

[steve w]

I was always taught that Viking Leif Erikson discovered the Americas, landing in what is now Newfoundland in 900-and-something. Dr Mab's point would work for that scenario as well.

Perhaps Columbus has endured because he claimed the lands for Spain, a powerful catholic country at the time when catholicism was the dominant religion of the known world.

 

[stingray61]

It persists for the same reason they didn't change it when they said the Vikings founded America first.

 

[Guest]

Actually, the only scientifically validated and accepted pre-columbian visit is that of the Norse. Artifacts have been found in Canada that came from Vikings, and earlier I think, then the Modoc dates you cite.

I recently read a less than completely scholarly book on the subject, and the other highly possible and intriging New World contact was Japanese pottery found in Ecuador similar to pottery in Japan at the same time (about 1000 AD). The thinking is that Japanese fisherman got blown by storms away from Japan. The major Pacific Current would take them clockwise around the Pacific, down the North American Pacific coast to a Equador.

Oh, and another intriging idea. The polynesians started out in Asia, and using small double canoes (maybe 50 feet max), settled as far north as Hawaii, as far East as Easter Island, and finally New Zealand.

A major food staple is the sweet potato.

The sweet potato is found in all those islands, but not indigenous to any of them.

The sweet potato is only indigenous to South America.

 

[thebullet]

There were certainly contacts between the old world and the new for a long time. Who hasn't read about the links between Ancient Egypt and MesoAmerica? They may or may not be true. It is certainly true that the Vikings colonized Greenland and Newfoundland for a generation or two. I hadn't heard about this Welsh connection, but it doesn't overly surprise me.

There have been theories about pre-historic colonization by Europoeans crossing a land bridge into North America. These theories were based upon genetic anamolies found in early American remains.

But Dr. M is correct. None of these contacts led to continuing on-going interaction between the eastern and western hemispheres. Only after Columbus were those interactions pursued.

ERGO: Columbus 'discovered' America. 'nuff said.

 

[Belegon]

Want to start a retail business? location, location, location

Be remembered by history? Timing, timing.timing


Columbus voyage came at a time when he then became the first of many, not just a first. Thus his prominence.

Not that I agree with him being venerated. Just why I think he is so prominent in mention.

edit: As I see several others have already pointed out, starting with our beloved Doctor

 

[scheherazade_79]

It's simple. Columbus's discovery led to the lasting colonization of the New World that changed things forever. The others didn't.

---dr.M.

You see, that's the important difference about the Welsh. We're not nearly pushy enough. Whereas the Spanish, the English, the Germans, the French, the Vikings and whoever else sailed across battled their way to domination through raping, pilaging, witch hunts and religious convertions, we just mingled with the natives and had a chat.

There are very few proper insults in the Welsh language. Even in the 21st century, the most insulting things you can say to a person in Welsh are "Cer i'r ddiawl" or "Cer i grafu dy dwll dyn" - which translate back as the offensive "Go to the devil" and the horrifically obscene "Go and scratch your arse hole".

When they had enough of English domination, the Irish armed up and created the IRA. The Welsh only managed a group of nutcase Welsh language activists who scribbled graffiti and sometimes managed to set empty buildings on fire.

It's the way we are - understated and completely and utterly modest

So if the Spanish keep wanting to grab the glory for Discovering the New World, let them - life's too short to get wound up over minutiae. Especially when there are so many sheep just waiting for their thrills

 

[thebullet]

Scheherazade said:
So if the Spanish keep wanting to grab the glory for Discovering the New World, let them - life's too short to get wound up over minutiae. Especially when there are so many sheep just waiting for their thrills

Well, you see in America, there are really very few people who admit to being Spanish. But Italians, I think New York has more Italians than Rome.

Therefore: It isn't the Spanish in America that take the credit for America's discovery. It's the Italians.

Go figure, huh? BTW, I'm Welsh myself (American style) and understated and pretty much abused accurately describes me, too. At least I know I come by it honestly.

 

[Belegon]

You see, that's the important difference about the Welsh. ... we just mingled with the natives and had a chat.

The Welsh only managed a group of nutcase Welsh language activists who scribbled graffiti and sometimes managed to set empty buildings on fire.

It's the way we are - understated and completely and utterly modest

Whereas my ancestry has a reputation for such drunken debauchery and hedonistic violence that even the Romans eventually said "The Hell with them" and built a wall to keep us where we were more dangerous to each other than them...*sigh* but at least the Whisky is still around.

We eventually got revenge on the world by making them spend 150.00 dollars to take a walk and hit rocks into gopher holes with crooked sticks.

 

[R. Richard]

I was always taught that Viking Leif Erikson discovered the Americas, landing in what is now Newfoundland in 900-and-something. Dr Mab's point would work for that scenario as well.

Probably the first sighting of North America by Northmen was by a man named Bjarni Hierulfson. Bjarni was blown off course and sighted a land which, from his descriptions was probably North America. Lief Ericsson later spent some time in what is very probably North America. Thorfinn Karlsefni set out c.1010 with an expedition consisting of three ships and 160 men to settle in Vinland, which Leif Ericsson had discovered a few years before.

Thorfinn Karlsefni set up what was intended to be a permanent settlement in Newfoundland. However, the Northmen of the time had a religion in which there were dangerous beings who could assume human form. When Amerinds discovered Thorfinn's settlement, Thorfinns people thought that the "skraelings" might be dangerous beings in human form. The dangerous beings in human form could not be killed. So, to check out the possibilities here, they killed a few skraelings, thus proving the humanity of said skraelings. Were the skraelings grateful for the proof of their humanity? The skraelings were not grateful and eventually drove Thorfinn from his settlement. What we had there, was a failure to communicate!

Anthropologists have finally discovered the site of Thorfinn's settlement in Newfoundland. It is now accepted that there really was such a settlement and that Thorfin is the first non-Amerind proven to try to make a permanent settlement in North America.

However, the first recorded non-Amerind, reasonably permanent settlement in North America was not made by Europeans, Polynesians or Welshmen.

Does anyone know who made said first non-Amerind settlement and who the settlers were?

 

[Guest]

It's simple. Columbus's discovery led to the lasting colonization of the New World that changed things forever. The others didn't.

---dr.M.

Ok, so, lemme get this straight.

Madoc and his followers come to mainland North America, they settle make friends with the natives, share the land and eventually become assimilated into the native tribes. They coexist happily for centuries and their decendants are here today.

300 years later, Good old C.C. grabs some boats and finds a small island in the Carribean. Yeah, it's already inhabited, but nevermind that, C.C. Claims the new land for God an Spain, takes over the island and essentially enslaves the natives. He robs the Natives blind, forces christianity on them and sets himself up as the supreme ruler of this little island. Disease wipes out a third of his men (BTW: He forgot to bring women. DOH!!!), The natives, pissed off at this asshole stealing all their stuff and invading their land, kill another third. The remaining invaders return to Spain.

A hundred years later some brits show up on continental N. Am. And try the same thing. Their colony disapears virtually without a trace.

Another hundred years or so the pilgrims show up, again (in a round about way) from Britain. They pull the same old gag, but this time it sticks. Along with a dozen other settlements.

Sorry, Doc, I don't care how you add that one up, C.C. didn't discover America any more than I discovered Lake Erie.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

For one thing, there is not one single place named Gwyneddville, and how many places are called Columbus?

In 987, Bjarni Herjulfsson, tried to visit Greenland, missed and landed on the northeast coast of America.

Around 1000, Lief Erickson (son of Eric the Red) tried to establish a colony somewhere in North America called “Vinland.” Nobody knows exactly where “Vinland” was located. A viking settlement has been found in a place called L'Anse aux Meadows on Newfoundland, which many historians believe was the settlement Leif tried to establish, but others believe that “Vinland” was further south in New England.

Actually, Columbus only got a raft of cities named after him. Amerigo Vespucci sailed to the “New World” in 1499, seven years after Columbus, but he had two whole continents named after him for the reason the he was the first to discover that it was a “New World” and not India or Cathay (China) that they had reached.

As Doc indicated, it is lasting colonization which is noted historically.

For example, sometime in the future there may be one or two colonies on the moon named Andersonville, but if the moon is ever renamed after any one person, it will more likely be after someone who established a permanent residence, not merely was the first to pay a brief visit.


Editted for Dranoel: Columbus discovered that America was there (for Europeans). Amerigo Vespucci discovered that it was a new, unknown land.

 

[Guest]

For example, sometime in the future there may be one or two colonies on the moon named Andersonville, but if the moon is ever renamed after any one person, it will more likely be after someone who established a permanent residence, not merely was the first to pay a brief visit.

That would be Armstrongville. Not Andersonville.

 

[curious2c]

Columbus got better press. That's all.

Truth...Asian's had been here long before whites...over the bering sea land bridge, long before the ice age ended (some believe) Also, a Phoecian ship was discovered off the coast of South America...I believe Brazil in the seventies...so the middle eastern countries had some presence here then too.

Besides, looking at South America and parts of America, finding settlements that we just now are finding out have been here longer than the indeginous peoples...one has to wonder...how long the whole world has been being 'discovered'.

 

[shereads]

The myth persists because there's only room in the popular consciousness for one discover of America at a time; the one that's been promoted by local governments and department store chains with growing enthusiasm, ever since someone realized that the C Man's birthday coincides with the need for a major sale event in February.

He arrived first. Not on the American continent, but at marketing icon status. He's not likely to be dethroned, either. Only a sex scandal could do that, and he's been dead too long.

Unless his cabin boy, Marie, hid a diary someplace...

 

[Guest]

1492
Dear Diary,
That bitch Isabelle actually funded my heart's desire so that we might be stuck on this god forsaken flotsam, sailing for lands unknown. It has been days since he has called for me and I fear that his obsession with future rights to bare his arms has taken over. I would be o.k. with this but for the silly hat he has insisted upon wearing. He has become a tyrant. I am not sure why this excites me so. Please, God, see us safely back to Portugal.
I am frightened of the way the men are looking at my hind quarters on the poop deck. I cling to you, dear diary and tuck you safely into a time capsule so that one day, all will be revealed.
Cabin Boy
Marie

 

[BlackShanglan]

1492
Dear Diary,
That bitch Isabelle actually funded my heart's desire so that we might be stuck on this god forsaken flotsam, sailing for lands unknown. It has been days since he has called for me and I fear that his obsession with future rights to bare his arms has taken over. I would be o.k. with this but for the silly hat he has insisted upon wearing. He has become a tyrant. I am not sure why this excites me so. Please, God, see us safely back to Portugal.
I am frightened of the way the men are looking at my hind quarters on the poop deck. I cling to you, dear diary and tuck you safely into a time capsule so that one day, all will be revealed.
Cabin Boy
Marie

I highly recommend Rushdie's "Christopher Columbus and Queen Isabella of Spain Consummate Their Relationship." Fabulous, funny, and brilliant.

Dranoel, the Doctor didn't say Columbus discovered America first. He said that it was his contact that led to the wave of European colonization. I think it's a fair argument. He's also not the only one remembered. Our country is currently named after another explorer, in fact - Amerigo Vespucci.

Shanglan

 

[elsol]

Oh... come on, people.

It's easy.

Columbus's voyage had government money involved.

Ergo, an official body was able to say "Leif, who?"

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[yui]

1492
Dear Diary,
That bitch Isabelle actually funded my heart's desire so that we might be stuck on this god forsaken flotsam, sailing for lands unknown. It has been days since he has called for me and I fear that his obsession with future rights to bare his arms has taken over. I would be o.k. with this but for the silly hat he has insisted upon wearing. He has become a tyrant. I am not sure why this excites me so. Please, God, see us safely back to Portugal.
I am frightened of the way the men are looking at my hind quarters on the poop deck. I cling to you, dear diary and tuck you safely into a time capsule so that one day, all will be revealed.
Cabin Boy
Marie

*cackling* Vella, you are brilliant!


Regarding Columbus, couldn't a bit of it be written versus oral history? Historians, historically, have valued what is recorded, not what is remembered. Only recently (relatively) has the value and "truth" in oral histories become a thing of value.

Or not.

Luck,

Yui

 

[Remec]

It persists for the same reason they didn't change it when they said the Vikings founded America first.

You also have to think about what claim is being met.

I'd not heard of Madoc before, but between him, Ericson and St Brendan you have many opportunities for there to have been discoveries earlier than Columbus. Also, remember that Columbus never (to my memory of things, and I might be wrong) ventured beyond the Caribbean, so the idea that he discovered America is pretty disigenious to begin with.

Wasn't Ponce De Leon the first Spaniard on what is now the continental US?

 

[TxRad]

He further related: "It is handed down by the Forefathers that the works had been made by the White people who had formerly inhabited the country. . ." and gave him a brief history of the "Whites."

This jogged a dusty memory cell... As a young fellow of about 8, I remember my great grandfather telling the "old" stories... My grandmother woud interprute as my gg/f spoke nothing but cherokee... one of the stories involved a white clan or tribe... I just wish I could remember more about it... All I can recall is bits and piecies... I do remember asking my grandmother why he used two different words for "people"....

I think I'll let this boil... I see a story in there somewhere.... It might be just the thing to get me out of my block..... I sure hope so.... not writing sucks.....

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

. . . Only recently (relatively) has the value and "truth" in oral histories become a thing of value. . .

Yui,

The value in oral history had to await the development of the Unauthorized Biography.

. . . Wasn't Ponce De Leon the first Spaniard on what is now the continental US?

Remec,

You dared to mention someone named Ponce?