Why do we write the way we do?

[vrosej10]

Ars Poetica ala Literotica
You guys are all so ambiguous, abstract, metaphorical
But I am straight forward in my writing.
I’ve deliberated about this difference of style
And I think I finally got it:

I’m a plain wrapped box, clearly labelled,
With a list of ingredients everyone can read.

Maybe I’m in need of complication?


Hi guys. I was just thinking last night about why we write in the style we do. Now I get UnderYourSpell; her lovely flourished, old fashioned style becomes her, twelveoone thrives on ambiguity and bronzeage is clearly expressing himself. Why do the rest of you guys choose the particular style you write in?

 

[butters]

Ars Poetica ala Literotica
You guys are all so ambiguous, abstract, metaphorical
But I am straight forward in my writing.
I’ve deliberated about this difference of style
And I think I finally got it:

I’m a plain wrapped box, clearly labelled,
With a list of ingredients everyone can read.

Maybe I’m in need of complication?


Hi guys. I was just thinking last night about why we write in the style we do. Now I get UnderYourSpell; her lovely flourished, old fashioned style becomes her, twelveoone thrives on ambiguity and bronzeage is clearly expressing himself. Why do the rest of you guys choose the particular style you write in?

first of all, if you've found a style that fits you well, wear it with pride, right?

i used to write far more wordily - poems regularly reaching 70+ lines with ease, often running into their hundreds. that was when the river of words was in full-spate and needed to run.... with time, that flow has abated, and now i am able to hone what i want to say having gained some skills with which to do so. someone i knew and admired once said they loved what i wrote but the long stuff gave them 'the shits' from there on in i hacked back to absolute minimalist, maybe 3-8 lines tops. it was a really good exercise for me, teaching me to use restraint, to think more about what i was actually creating.

now i tend to find i am a little more relaxed yet have never returned to that over-exuberant style i started out with... and, seriously, i write each poem however it feels right (to me) to be written, whether that's short and tight or more fluid and loose in its flow.

 

[vrosej10]

first of all, if you've found a style that fits you well, wear it with pride, right?

i used to write far more wordily - poems regularly reaching 70+ lines with ease, often running into their hundreds. that was when the river of words was in full-spate and needed to run.... with time, that flow has abated, and now i am able to hone what i want to say having gained some skills with which to do so. someone i knew and admired once said they loved what i wrote but the long stuff gave them 'the shits' from there on in i hacked back to absolute minimalist, maybe 3-8 lines tops. it was a really good exercise for me, teaching me to use restraint, to think more about what i was actually creating.

now i tend to find i am a little more relaxed yet have never returned to that over-exuberant style i started out with... and, seriously, i write each poem however it feels right (to me) to be written, whether that's short and tight or more fluid and loose in its flow.

Yeh I can feel that you have tightened your style. You can tell you are thinking about every word. I think I might have just gone through one of those turns myself. You guys gave me a boot up the bum about how much I am editing and I applied the same sharp claws to my poetry as I do to my other writing and it has improved enormously. I was never a huge rambler but my stuff was flabby and I am fixing that. I like your style. The ambiguity works for you. I loved that fishing metaphor poem you wrote. Killer.

 

[bronzeage]

I write the way I do because it is the way I think and the way I talk.

 

[serpentwrap]

I write the way I do because it is the way I think and the way I talk.

Amen. No ambiguity, no laboured explanation, just simple truth. I love this.

 

[butters]

Yeh I can feel that you have tightened your style. You can tell you are thinking about every word. I think I might have just gone through one of those turns myself. You guys gave me a boot up the bum about how much I am editing and I applied the same sharp claws to my poetry as I do to my other writing and it has improved enormously. I was never a huge rambler but my stuff was flabby and I am fixing that. I like your style. The ambiguity works for you. I loved that fishing metaphor poem you wrote. Killer.

well now i've cut back on the number of words, i often have to make each do the job of about eight seriously, though, to cram in as much as i would that ambiguity thing is all too often required. as for editing, i do it as i write and rewrite it till it looks 'right' at the time then sub - once subbed, it's often hard for me to change a piece since i've already given it that mental workout... however, that's not to say some of the editing suggestions received haven't made me look anew at pieces and sometimes incorporate them.

your claws are looking pretty sharp to me, hon - just make sure whatever changes you make feel right to you as the author. nothing much worse than changing and changing a piece till you don't even connect anymore with it. and ty

 

[butters]

I write the way I do because it is the way I think and the way I talk.

yeah, well, it's alright for you to say that ... that's coz you iz cool, bronze

some of us would be all "erm, ... yeah and ... er ... ah, yes"

 

[twelveoone]

Now I get ... twelveoone thrives on ambiguity....

That is high up on my list.
And what I get is: Not what I expected from...
Because, what I write is either a solution to a problem(s): How do I overcome the limitations of a pantuom...wind in the pines...if you go back and look, you have a new form.
(and by the way jackass, the title, the title, not pine-sol, and 7 sylabols, what kind of common meter are you going to put there?)
Why do list poems suck? Solution in a thread, run an Inference pattern at the end of line. Again, a new form.
Or failure analysis, at what point do things break down, or a test of truisms.
Don't write in abstractions, I wrote what appeared to be a haiku that was totally abstract, that could be read 6 or 7 ways, until you came to the concrete object, which was a mirror, thus the only true American haiku.
What happens if you change the order of things, 5-7-5 to 7-5-7, that some jackass decided I can't write a haiku and blasted accordingly.
Can I write with more than voice happening, yes 4, two E's, also a test of intersections. At points the voices intersect, and an interjuction of juxtapositions happens.
Can I write by hiding everything in plain sight (exercise in deception, because I got in trouble because I said once that two of my favorite writers have a deceptive style; i.e. you can't judge them by generic standards).
Can I write without a fixed POV, and what happens, those that have Barking Dogs, check out TRANSCRIPT, painfully easy, seems to work, and the only reason YOU NEVER THOUGHT OF IT, because you were taught not to.
Point is what you are dealing with is words you can do anything you want with words and there is a point at which the effectiveness breaks down, and it has to do with psychology, NOT literary dogma.
Any trick (excuuuse me, skill), you learn works in a pattern of 2,3, or 4. Three being close to the optimum number, (the tricolon - poetguy - standard, eh?)
I know you are all thinking what an arrogant prick. Now, if I really was a prick, I wouldn't give it away, now would I?
Well I just did. Shift everything from the how to, to the why. Consider everything INCLUDING what I just said with skepticism and you'll begin to separate the true from truisms.
What I've seen here is an abundance of half closed minds, which when you think of it, is so much better than the rest of society.

 

[butters]

What I've seen here is an abundance of half closed minds, which when you think of it, is so much better than the rest of society.

yeah - we're working on that
*keeps up the stretching exercises*

 

[Liar]

It's just
how the cookie crumbles,
and how each syllable tumbles,
barely in control over
a too word barren tongue.

Playing Jenga with oven mittens,
herding a hundred caffienated kittens,
singing arias
with half a lung.

 

[Angeline]

I think the way I write has evolved because of what I read and write and also the music I like. I very often write with non-vocal jazz playing in the bacground because I love it and something about the shifting sound and pace of that sort of music, the freedom of it is the way I often want to sound.

It's also sort of the way I talk. I have one old friend who has always teased me about my always saying what something is like, so I think my natural speech tends toward simile and metaphor.

Two poets whose advice influenced me a lot both told me over and over to use less words and I try to be conscious of that. One of those people once told me a poem is like a cake and the best cakes are simple and don't have a lot of decoration on them. So the point (whether one likes simple or decorated cakes!) is to say what's essential and not overdecorate with unnecessary words. I'm not always successful at that but it is something I consciously strive to achieve.

 

[Angeline]

That is high up on my list.
And what I get is: Not what I expected from...
Because, what I write is either a solution to a problem(s): How do I overcome the limitations of a pantuom...wind in the pines...if you go back and look, you have a new form.
(and by the way jackass, the title, the title, not pine-sol, and 7 sylabols, what kind of common meter are you going to put there?)
Why do list poems suck? Solution in a thread, run an Inference pattern at the end of line. Again, a new form.
Or failure analysis, at what point do things break down, or a test of truisms.
Don't write in abstractions, I wrote what appeared to be a haiku that was totally abstract, that could be read 6 or 7 ways, until you came to the concrete object, which was a mirror, thus the only true American haiku.
What happens if you change the order of things, 5-7-5 to 7-5-7, that some jackass decided I can't write a haiku and blasted accordingly.Can I write with more than voice happening, yes 4, two E's, also a test of intersections. At points the voices intersect, and an interjuction of juxtapositions happens.
Can I write by hiding everything in plain sight (exercise in deception, because I got in trouble because I said once that two of my favorite writers have a deceptive style; i.e. you can't judge them by generic standards).
Can I write without a fixed POV, and what happens, those that have Barking Dogs, check out TRANSCRIPT, painfully easy, seems to work, and the only reason YOU NEVER THOUGHT OF IT, because you were taught not to.
Point is what you are dealing with is words you can do anything you want with words and there is a point at which the effectiveness breaks down, and it has to do with psychology, NOT literary dogma.
Any trick (excuuuse me, skill), you learn works in a pattern of 2,3, or 4. Three being close to the optimum number, (the tricolon - poetguy - standard, eh?)
I know you are all thinking what an arrogant prick. Now, if I really was a prick, I wouldn't give it away, now would I?
Well I just did. Shift everything from the how to, to the why. Consider everything INCLUDING what I just said with skepticism and you'll begin to separate the true from truisms.
What I've seen here is an abundance of half closed minds, which when you think of it, is so much better than the rest of society.

I think that poiint I highlighted is very important, too. I love to write in forms not because I love form so much but because it's a very disciplined way of approaching what you write. I think of writing forms as practice for free verse. And I also think that once you start forcing what you write to fit a given form, you've missed the point. It is never good, imo, to sacrifice a poem for the requirements of a form. If I know something is working but it doesn't fit the form exactly, well the hell with the form and on with the poem!

 

[bronzeage]

I think that poiint I highlighted is very important, too. I love to write in forms not because I love form so much but because it's a very disciplined way of approaching what you write. I think of writing forms as practice for free verse. And I also think that once you start forcing what you write to fit a given form, you've missed the point. It is never good, imo, to sacrifice a poem for the requirements of a form. If I know something is working but it doesn't fit the form exactly, well the hell with the form and on with the poem!

I read some tankas one night at a poetry reading. The people had come mostly for the singers and guitar players, so it was not an audience of poets. I got a few compliments on the work, but no one had any clue when a line started or ended and certainly no idea how many syllables were in each line.

When form takes precedence over the substance, it's time to step back a bit.

 

[drown]

I think the way I write has evolved because of what I read and write and also the music I like. I very often write with non-vocal jazz playing in the bacground because I love it and something about the shifting sound and pace of that sort of music, the freedom of it is the way I often want to sound.

It's also sort of the way I talk. I have one old friend who has always teased me about my always saying what something is like, so I think my natural speech tends toward simile and metaphor.

Two poets whose advice influenced me a lot both told me over and over to use less words and I try to be conscious of that. One of those people once told me a poem is like a cake and the best cakes are simple and don't have a lot of decoration on them. So the point (whether one likes simple or decorated cakes!) is to say what's essential and not overdecorate with unnecessary words. I'm not always successful at that but it is something I consciously strive to achieve.

wow
ok.


i write the way i do here
because this is where the voice here has taken it...

i have given here.

i give here.

and,

i write the way i do here because
the best that i give here is free to be stolen.


i'm open source
here
that way.

 

[butters]

goodness, i thought i'd woken up listening to Parliament Live in the afternoon.... hear hear!

 

[butters]

Ars Poetica ala Literotica
You guys are all so ambiguous, abstract, metaphorical
But I am straight forward in my writing.

just to say, V: what about your pecans and marshland then, hmmmn? you are not entirely unambiguous or free of using your imagery in a metaphorical/euphimistic fashion

 

[drown]

goodness, i thought i'd woken up listening to Parliament Live in the afternoon.... hear hear!

nothing quite like
some drums
and a [color= yourfavoritecolor] flag [\color]

 

[butters]

nothing quite like
some drums
and a [color= yourfavoritecolor] flag [\color]

our mp's are taut
be careful what you bang
cirque-de-soleil
50p!

 

[bogusagain]

One of those people once told me a poem is like a cake and the best cakes are simple and don't have a lot of decoration on them. So the point (whether one likes simple or decorated cakes!) is to say what's essential and not overdecorate with unnecessary words. I'm not always successful at that but it is something I consciously strive to achieve.

Modernist architects argued that form should follow function and that decoration should be removed. Of course, advocates like Mies van der Rohe didn't follow their own advice, the Seagrams building in New York is full of bronze decoration pretending to be functional. However, many architects took such nonsense at face value and filled our cities full of brute concrete bunkers and towers that made cities alienating places.

Surely poetry should respond to the music of language but how can you write poetry that uses the music of language if all unnecessary words are removed? Poetry is more than sound semaphore. Minimalism has its place but surely other, less concise poetry forms have their place too and that doesn't mean none minimal poetry is using unnecessary words.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Old fashioned eh? ho hum I thought I had moved on from that over the years I had been here. Is it because I love forms so much that I am deemed so? All the forms that I now know I have learnt here, I don't know what to say now this has brought me to standstill but perhaps a short sharp shock is what I need to think again

 

[Angeline]

Modernist architects argued that form should follow function and that decoration should be removed. Of course, advocates like Mies van der Rohe didn't follow their own advice, the Seagrams building in New York is full of bronze decoration pretending to be functional. However, many architects took such nonsense at face value and filled our cities full of brute concrete bunkers and towers that made cities alienating places.

Surely poetry should respond to the music of language but how can you write poetry that uses the music of language if all unnecessary words are removed? Poetry is more than sound semaphore. Minimalism has its place but surely other, less concise poetry forms have their place too and that doesn't mean none minimal poetry is using unnecessary words.

I'm not saying every poem should be minimalist. I don't follow that in my own writing. There's a place for minimalist poems and fuller narrative poems and prose poems. I'm simply saying that most people, when they begin to write poetry make the mistakes of too many words and the wrong words. The more one practices, the more one learns that if they weed out the excess and find the right words the better the poems become.

Why would you want to keep words that are unnecessary? Even if you were writing something that was lavish with language, wouldn't you want the right lavish words? Sorry Bogus, but your argument doesn't work for me.

 

[EroticOrogeny]

I write the way I write since its how I see it.
Definitely put some effort into choice of words and their use.

I think we need to distinguish between minimalism and succinctness.
We don't have a either-or situation, but a range.

 

[vrosej10]

I write the way I do because it is the way I think and the way I talk.

Me too. I'm quite straight forward and direct in person.

 

[vrosej10]

I think that poiint I highlighted is very important, too. I love to write in forms not because I love form so much but because it's a very disciplined way of approaching what you write. I think of writing forms as practice for free verse. And I also think that once you start forcing what you write to fit a given form, you've missed the point. It is never good, imo, to sacrifice a poem for the requirements of a form. If I know something is working but it doesn't fit the form exactly, well the hell with the form and on with the poem!

Straight up. Form should serve the poem and not the other way round. Haiku is a little like porn though. I couldn't tell you exactly what it is, but I know it when I see it.

 

[vrosej10]

just to say, V: what about your pecans and marshland then, hmmmn? you are not entirely unambiguous or free of using your imagery in a metaphorical/euphimistic fashion

No, that was actual, literal imagery. I was describing a pecan farm next door to a swamp that was right next to a marsh near my home. If I had picture I'd post it.