Who Owns The Land?

[JackLuis]

The militants in Oregon say the Govt. has no right to the land, but who does?

Oregon native tribe bewildered by gun-toting ‘glory hounds’: That land belongs to the Paiute

“I just think they’re a bunch of glory hounds,” Charlotte Rodrique, the chairwoman of the federally recognized Burns Paiute Tribe, said in an interview on Tuesday at the tribal reservation’s meeting house. ‘Look at us, look at what we’re doing.’ I don’t give much credence to their cause.”

The Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and the small town of Burns have been thrust into the spotlight by the takeover, which began on Saturday and marked the latest protest over federal management of millions of acres (hectares) of land in the West.

The armed militia’s standoff with the U.S. government over ranchers’ land rights has bewildered the leaders of the tribe. Although the Paiute have their own disputes over land and water with U.S. government agencies, they prefer a less adversarial approach.

“There was never an agreement that we were giving up this land. We were dragged out of here,” Rodrique said.

The tribe’s approach has typically been less provocative than the protesters who picked up guns to further their anti-government cause.

“I’m, like, hold on a minute, if you want to get technical about it … the land belongs to the Paiute here,” said Selena Sam, a member of the tribe’s council who waitresses at a local diner.

The tribe held a council meeting on Tuesday to discuss the sudden national attention land rights are once again getting.

She said the government has become increasingly bureaucratic about allowing the tribe to catch trout, bass and perch in the rivers lacing the mountains and hunt elk and deer in the woods.

"Liberty and Justice for all... except you natives."

The US Government owns the land, they stole it fair and square!

 

[JackLuis]

Bundy militia standoff escalates when another heavily-armed group arrives to provide ‘security’

In a moment of irony, a new group of armed miltiamen has arrived at the standoff in Harney County, Oregon, and the ones that have been there since last Saturday say their presence is unwanted.

The Oregonian reports that the Pacific Patriot Network has sent armed “security” — some of whom are carrying semi-automatic rifles — to the standoff on Saturday. But an attorney mediating the dispute between Ammon Bundy and federal officials said Bundy wants them to leave.

Like a Snickers bar, more nuts that you can count!

 

[4yourpleasureiam]

A question, Have you ever had to deal with a BLM employ?

 

[renard_ruse]

The liberals always trot out Indians when they are losing an argument. They don't do squat for the Indians the rest of the time. It was Reagan who approved Indian gaming which has helped the tribes more than decades of liberal welfare ever did.

 

[JackLuis]

A question, Have you ever had to deal with a BLM employ?

I presume you meant BLM employee?
No, I've never had that frustration.

The liberals always trot out Indians when they are losing an argument. They don't do squat for the Indians the rest of the time. It was Reagan who approved Indian gaming which has helped the tribes more than decades of liberal welfare ever did.

So rr are you a conservative who wants to help the Paiute recover their rights?

 

[BotanyBoy]

The liberals always trot out Indians when they are losing an argument. They don't do squat for the Indians the rest of the time. It was Reagan who approved Indian gaming which has helped the tribes more than decades of liberal welfare ever did.

Reagan also socialized HC and supported unions......among many other things you bad mouth the shit out of current liburhulz for.

Like the Obama phone?

Really a Reagan phone.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m162jfE3dT1r1c6jgo2_500.jpg

 

[Lancecastor]

In Canada, all land is technically owned by Queen Elizabeth 2.

Deeds are "bundles of rights" allowing free use of the land with various restrictions.

If she wants it back, she expropriates it.

I would think its the same in the USA with state and federal govts replacing the Crown.

 

[renard_ruse]

I presume you meant BLM employee?
No, I've never had that frustration.



So rr are you a conservative who wants to help the Paiute recover their rights?

What rights are we talking about? I'm not versed in land claim issues, but possession is 90% of the law as they say. Reality is non-natives aren't going to crawl back into the sea, tribes aren't going to get all the land back. Beyond that, its for the courts to determine.

If you mean reviving their language or things like that, sure, I support federal money to help with language revival programs but they are almost never successful.

 

[sr71plt]

I would think it would be pretty clear that that Bundys don't own the land--for starters.

 

[JackLuis]

Oregon judge plans to bill Ammon Bundy up to $70,000 a day for security costs to county

An Oregon judge says he will bill Ammon Bundy up to $70,000 a day to reimburse Harney County for security costs related to the ongoing occupation of a wildlife refuge.

Local schools reopened Monday for the first time since Bundy and other militants seized a visitors center Jan. 2 at the Malheur National Wildlife Preserve and demanded the transfer of federally owned land to the county, reported KTVZ-TV.

Bundy and other militants used a backhoe owned by the U.S. Department of Fish and Wildlife to remove fences separating federal land from property owned by a local rancher.

Oregon militants tear down fences surrounding the federal wildlife refuge

A small group of armed activists who have occupied a remote wildlife refuge in Oregon ratcheted things up a notch Monday by destroying fencing surrounding the federal property.

The group, which took over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge ten days ago, used pliers and an excavator found on site to tear down barbed-wire fencing that marks the edge of the park.

Ammon Bundy, who has led the revolt, said that the protesters acted at the request of a rancher who wanted to graze his 600 cattle on the federal property, but was prevented from doing so when the US Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) installed the fence last year.

 

[JackLuis]

Unarmed black protesters were ‘forcibly removed’ and jailed after they tried to occupy a wildlife refuge in 1979

After a group of armed militants seized an Oregon nature preserve earlier this month, many wondered: What would have happened if they were black?

It’s impossible to know for sure, of course, but there is a somewhat recent historical precedent that offers some clues, reported The Oregonian.

In 1979, 40 members of People Organized for Equal Rights set up camp on a federal nature preserve south of Savannah, Georgia — where their ancestors had lived for generations.

A white plantation owner had deeded the land to a former slave after the Civil War, and other freed slaves and their descendant moved to the area — known as Harris Neck — to live, work, fish and farm for decades.

That all came to an abrupt end in 1942, when the U.S. military took over Harris Neck through eminent domain and gave residents three weeks to leave.

White Privilege?

By contrast, the armed militants have occupied the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, demanding the transfer of federal land to the control of an extralegal county government they created and the release of two ranchers convicted of arson — who asked the militiamen to leave before they voluntarily reported to prison.

For nearly two weeks now, the out-of-state militants with few ties to eastern Oregon have given news conferences, issued demands and threatened violent confrontations with authorities.

 

[JackLuis]

Oregon militant admits locals want him gone — but refuses to leave because US is a republic

“Let’s talk about a republic,” he continued. “It’s the right of an individual that we’re looking at, not the right of the collective. You know if there is just one rancher that is saying please help me, please don’t go, what about him? What about the Hammonds? What about that family that is in prison?”

Finicum said the militants wouldn’t have taken over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge if it weren’t for Steven and Dwight Hammond, the Oregon ranchers who were recently sent back to jail on arson charges.

“Let them be released,” he said. “It is about the one family right now.”

It's a good thing I'm not the President. I'd call out the A-10's and sacrifice the government buildings to show those fuckers the power of a Republic.

 

[Comshaw]

Disclaimer: I'm a city-dweller now, but was raised in rural Montana, so my post is biased.

Aside from Federal Parks, I don't see a single reason for the federal government to maintain control of these lands. Governors and State Legislatures can do a better job of managing these lands. They're closest to their citizens and issues around large tracts of land.

I get the EPA arguments, I really do, but that agency can still work with the local governors to manage any problems or issues that arise. Governors could also advocate for their citizens better than a house rep or senator. Ranchers, farmers, hunters, etc, are more concerned about effective land management than most of the environmentalists I've met or read online.

The overriding issue is control...in my opinion. As long as the Federal Government controls this land, there is nothing preventing the EPA from taking whatever action they want, even if it hurts local citizens. EPA abuse is real.

If you'll read some history on this you'll find some rather eye opening facts. Originally all of that land was open to homesteading. No one wanted it. After that the state and local governments were given the chance to own the land. They opted not to because they didn't have the resources to administer it.

As far as the EPA working with the locals to manage problems they do, as long as the locals work within the framework of the regulations. The problem is the locals want to use it for free unfettered by any regulation. On my land? not hardly! Now you're going to ask, 'your land'? Yes mine and your's and every other person who lives in this country. We own it, the feds just administer it for us. If we don't like it, we can change it by voting for those who will change it. Part of the whole problem is that after that democratic process has been done, the minority ( it matters not which side wins btw) whines and cries about it.....I digress.

The problem comes when the locals don't want to work within the system, but would rather short cut it to benefit themselves. I'm sure ranchers feel they have more of an ownership of those lands then someone living in an apartment in New York, but that just isn't the case. That apartment dweller has as much invested in those lands as the rancher that grazes cattle on them. People like the Bundys feel they have more of a right to the land then I do and also feel they should use it for free. Bullshit.

I've watch the same fight take place here. It was about logging rather then grazing, but the base concept was the same. I was raised and grew up in a logging community. Much of the logging here was in the national forest. When the Spotted Owl and Marbled Murrelet regulations were instituted and the ban on shipping timber over seas that was harvested on federal land was put into place it reduced the logging by 80%. It had a devastating impacted on my community.

At that time there was a drive to have the state take over the national forest and administer it. That didn't go far because the state doesn't have the time or resources to do it. When that fell through the idea surfaced to make the Feds sell the land to private timber companies. That also didn't fly and I'm glad it didn't. Why? Simple, if it's Fed land I have access to it. I can hike on it, hunt on it, in other works use it and enjoy it for recreational purposes. In private hands it would be locked, posted and inaccessible to me.

Through the 80's, 90's and early 2000's my community survived and we found ways to prosper. Do I believe what the Fed's did to the logging here was right? Not totally. I think they could have allowed more logging then they did. I also know if the state had taken over the land it would have been a fiasco.

It is a matter of control because the ranchers want it both ways: they want to use the land for free and they want no regulations or restrictions on how they do so. To be succinct in my opinion of that I'll restate my earlier position: Bullshit.

Comshaw

 

[JackLuis]

Oregon man joining Bundy militants threatens cops in drunken rant: ‘I will kill all of you’

The Wingnut parade continues! Wildlife Refuge indeed!

 

[FirmYetGentle]

The government owns the land, but the Bundy group isn't happy with how the government is running it. All government departments aren't the same. Some are willing to run it for the rule of law and order. Others want to run it for economic planning...

...and Native Americans didn't run it at all. They were anarchists who didn't recognize property rights from claiming nature belonged to everyone despite how different people use nature for different motives.

Anyone who doesn't grasp this is either sarcastic or autistic.

 

[dan_c00000]

I'm not versed in land claim issues

Yeah no shit. Why don't you read about it here? Since our ancestors' stole the land from Native Americans (or "bought" or "traded" for it) it now belongs to the federal or state government so a bunch of fucking rednecks claiming to "own" the land are full of it.

 

[AlexVega]

Yeah no shit. Why don't you read about it here? Since our ancestors' stole the land from Native Americans (or "bought" or "traded" for it) it now belongs to the federal or state government so a bunch of fucking rednecks claiming to "own" the land are full of it.

thanks for the racist rant.

 

[phrodeau]

thanks for the racist rant.

Your opinion is duly noted and flushed.

 

[sr71plt]

The Oregon militants were arrested; their spokesman killed.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/bundys_in_custody_one_militant.html

 

[Ramone45]

I'm surprised there's not more outrage over the shootout. I can't see any reason for this violence. The protesters weren't a threat. The feds should leave them alone.

 

[phrodeau]

I'm surprised there's not more outrage over the shootout. I can't see any reason for this violence. The protesters weren't a threat. The feds should leave them alone.

The protesters may have shot first; we don't know. But the fact that they're armed means that they are indeed a threat.

 

[BettyPoop]

The government owns the land, but the Bundy group isn't happy with how the government is running it. All government departments aren't the same. Some are willing to run it for the rule of law and order. Others want to run it for economic planning...

...and Native Americans didn't run it at all. They were anarchists who didn't recognize property rights from claiming nature belonged to everyone despite how different people use nature for different motives.

Anyone who doesn't grasp this is either sarcastic or autistic.

Or educated. Or eddicated as you would say. We stole the land. We also never honored any treaties we made with the Native Americans. And the Koch brothers are still cheating them out of their oil royalties.

 

[FirmYetGentle]

Or educated. Or eddicated as you would say. We stole the land. We also never honored any treaties we made with the Native Americans. And the Koch brothers are still cheating them out of their oil royalties.

Again, Native Americans were anarchists. You can't steal land from people who don't appreciate property rights.

 

[BettyPoop]

Again, Native Americans were anarchists. You can't steal land from people who don't appreciate property rights.

They SHARED the land. We didn't appreciate any of their property rights. By the way, "Koch Brothers Exposed" by Robert Greenwald--great little movie.