Who else spends more time revising a story than they do writing the first draft?

[SimonDoom]

I sent the story to seventeen beta-readers, heard back from six.

That amazes me, too. I'm not knocking it because you seem to enjoy writing the way you do and your many readers obviously enjoy the results. But that's a lot of input from a lot of people to work into one's story.

I keep telling myself I should work with an editor but so far I've lone-wolfed every one of my 32 stories, with no beta input and no help proofreading or editing. I know I'd be better with an editor, but so far I've enjoyed doing it this way.

There's no right way. Do it in whatever way best serves your own purposes.

 

[Omenainen]

Jamie: We have seventeen beta readers, nineteen actually.

Lisa: Uh, that's nineteen total readers, across our last five published stories.

Jamie: Same difference...

Lisa: Not exactly.

Jamie: That's a 4.8 average score.

Lisa: Yeah, that's pretty good.

I laughed at this.

 

[8letters]

How did you find seventeen beta readers?

At the end of my stories, I put Author's Notes. That includes a link to Extended Author Notes. At the end of the Extended Author Notes, I ask the reader to become a beta-reader. I get a fair number that way.

When I get a PM, I reply back. If the person replies to that, I look to convert them to a beta-reader.

That amazes me, too. I'm not knocking it because you seem to enjoy writing the way you do and your many readers obviously enjoy the results. But that's a lot of input from a lot of people to work into one's story.

I keep telling myself I should work with an editor but so far I've lone-wolfed every one of my 32 stories, with no beta input and no help proofreading or editing. I know I'd be better with an editor, but so far I've enjoyed doing it this way.

How are you getting better as a writer? Comments tell me so little. I feel that I'm at the point that to improve, I need someone to take the time to point out the weaknesses in my story. I'm not going to see them myself.

Some of my beta-readers give me one or two paragraphs of feedback. Some of my beta-readers make suggestions that I don't think will improve the story. I learn by trying to put myself in their shoes and see the story through their eyes. If I get the same criticism from a couple of beta-readers, then I know I need to address the problem. In my current story, the final sex scene doesn't resolve the central conflict of the story, which is the MMC struggling working for the boss from hell. A couple of beta-readers pointed that out, so I added an epilogue that satisfyingly resolves that conflict.

 

[RejectReality]

It also helps that you're in one of the most read genres on the site. LOL Sheer numbers increase the probability of likely respondents, as well as the pool of respondents who can provide useful insights.

That's not the only factor, though. You can easily pick up quite a few beta readers in one of the lower readership categories on the site — Sci-Fi&Fantasy. A high percentage of the readers there are more invested in the stories than the sex, to the point of even skimming over the sex.

( I personally like to discourage that by throwing foreshadowing into the sex scenes, such as hinting at Andrea's powers long before revealing them, or having interludes in the middle of the scene where pillow talk is relevant to the story later )

Pretty much everyone coming here has some degree of being invested in the story, even if their primary motivation is release. Otherwise, they'd just be watching porn.

At the end of my stories, I put Author's Notes. That includes a link to Extended Author Notes. At the end of the Extended Author Notes, I ask the reader to become a beta-reader. I get a fair number that way.

When I get a PM, I reply back. If the person replies to that, I look to convert them to a beta-reader.


How are you getting better as a writer? Comments tell me so little. I feel that I'm at the point that to improve, I need someone to take the time to point out the weaknesses in my story. I'm not going to see them myself.

Some of my beta-readers give me one or two paragraphs of feedback. Some of my beta-readers make suggestions that I don't think will improve the story. I learn by trying to put myself in their shoes and see the story through their eyes. If I get the same criticism from a couple of beta-readers, then I know I need to address the problem. In my current story, the final sex scene doesn't resolve the central conflict of the story, which is the MMC struggling working for the boss from hell. A couple of beta-readers pointed that out, so I added an epilogue that satisfyingly resolves that conflict.

 

[KeithD]

The proof is in whatever makes you feel best about your writing. Having beta readers to help you work a story idea over before you finalize it can add an extra dimension of pleasure and fulfillment in writing. That's fine for those who find satisfaction from that. I don't write by committee--the final result is all mine--but then I don't see any reason why others should use the same approach.

 

[MeredithEighty8]

I'm the type who writes a story and then spends probably more time than needed, reviewing and revising, sometimes off and on for weeks before finally submitting it.

There's usually nothing wrong with the story, but I still check and recheck for errors, misspellings, inconsistencies, etc. that don't exist or slip by anyway.

My partner says its a personality quirk.

 

[SimonDoom]

How are you getting better as a writer? Comments tell me so little. I feel that I'm at the point that to improve, I need someone to take the time to point out the weaknesses in my story. I'm not going to see them myself.

.

I think I am getting better, mostly by practice and paying attention, but I think it's time to get some input and help, so at some point I'll probably break down. I guess I'm reluctant to intrude on someone else's busy schedule with my story.

 

[nylonpunkie]

Fascinating to see all your methods

All your approaches make my method seem extremely sketchy:

I imagine it, write it down and then read it through verrrrryyyy slooowly (out loud in an almost robotic voice) looking for stupid mistakes.

Sometimes I'll leave little notes for myself in the text: {look this up properly} or {find a better a word}.

I've got a feeling that using a program to suggest 'better' grammar would annoy the hell out of me, so my stories are probably full of phrasing that people find horrendously incorrect. I don't mind though, I like to discover the poetry and rhythm of a sentence on my own.

 

[SamScribble]

I have no idea how much time I spend revising. I do it as I go along. Write a sentence. Write a second sentence. Write a third sentence. See how it reads. If necessary, tweak the first sentence. And so it goes.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I have no idea how much time I spend revising. I do it as I go along. Write a sentence. Write a second sentence. Write a third sentence. See how it reads. If necessary, tweak the first sentence. And so it goes.

A bit like walking, really, one step at a time. Then you learn to toddle, and after that it's forever trying to catch up with yourself as you hurtle down hill.

 

[8letters]

I think I am getting better, mostly by practice and paying attention, but I think it's time to get some input and help, so at some point I'll probably break down. I guess I'm reluctant to intrude on someone else's busy schedule with my story.

Many of the beta-readers I've worked with have been very happy to help. I think they find it exciting to get an early read of a story by an author they like and to make a contribution to a published story.

OTOH, the difficulty may be you. If you're going to take their time to read your story, you need to take seriously all of their feedback. I've done beta-reading for a few authors, and it's frustrating when they are willing to change only a little bit of their story.

 

[KeithD]

I've done beta-reading for a few authors, and it's frustrating when they are willing to change only a little bit of their story.

Which would no longer qualify as just their story. It would be a committee product. That's very likely at the base of why their resist. They'd really prefer it was their story.

I've already noted that it's just fine if you like writing by committee, but there's a natural sliding scale on a writer being happy doing this.

 

[RejectReality]

You have to find the right person/people. A good beta reader will only suggest major changes when there's something seriously wrong with the story. By the time you're ready to move to beta readers, there really shouldn't be an issue like that.

The author also has to be ready to accept those observations with an open mind, but with an eye toward maintaining the integrity of the story.

The reader has to be willing to accept that it's your world, and ultimately it's your decision what stays or goes — for good or ill.

When you try to proofread your own work, it's easy to miss typos and homophones because you see what you meant to write, rather than what's on the page. The same can hold true for the story. You know your characters and the world they're walking through. You can read in things that aren't actually on the page, and a beta reader can catch those oversights.

 

[Voboy]

I reckon 95% of my first draft remains untouched into the final version. I've developed a rolling edit process, but most of my "thinking it through and getting it right" goes on subconsciously, because my edit is mostly dumb typos, changing words around to keep the beat of the prose, changing phrases here and there, occasionally a sentence, rarely a paragraph. If I get stuck I'll write something else and come back to it.

I'd die a natural death if I tried to do what the OP describes - I wouldn't even start. Our brains are obviously wired quite differently.

This. Precisely, except your 95% is probably about 98% for me.

The OP's process horrifies me. Different strokes, though!

 

[SimonDoom]

OTOH, the difficulty may be you. If you're going to take their time to read your story, you need to take seriously all of their feedback. .

I wouldn't know, because I haven't tried it. I'm sure having someone beta read my stories would help my writing. It's just something I haven't done yet.

 

[Voboy]

Which would no longer qualify as just their story. It would be a committee product. That's very likely at the base of why their resist. They'd really prefer it was their story.

I've already noted that it's just fine if you like writing by committee, but there's a natural sliding scale on a writer being happy doing this.

And this.

I've always felt that the further a story gets from the raw, unadulterated words that rolled out of the writer's mind in the initial instant they had their idea, the less organic the final product is going to be.

Say I write a sentence. If I change it based on the advice of six beta-readers and an editor, is it really me that wrote the sentence in the end? I think not, but YMMV.

 

[Paul_Chance]

I plot in detail (even short stories), then edit as I write, usually paragraph by paragraph. I do very little revising. By the time I am finished plotting I've got the complete short story down.

I avoid the revising by this technique: As I am writing and alternate plot/character ideas occur to me they land in a separate document. I'd rather take them and use them in another story. It keeps my writing process tight. Stories fail in the plot, not in the draft.

(Also, because there is no paycheck at the end of Lit story I don't put too much effort into them.)

 

[Fervid]

I was glad to find these comments above:

I'm from the write hot edit cold school, I don't like to revise in process because it screws up the flow.

Write, let it sit, then edit and edit and edit.

Doing the rewrite is my favourite part. I tend . . . crash it all in to make sure the ideas are all there. Then I can go back and edit/add at my leisure.

I'm the type who writes a story and then spends probably more time than needed, reviewing and revising, sometimes off and on for weeks before finally submitting it.​

...because that's me, and I'm very aware my writing needs a lot of revision to keep it from sounding like the type of exposition I write professionally. It's a disease! It does make me think I can get away without editors, but it's very hard to change styles, and my dialog is like oil tankers mating.

So I write hot (better for creativity) and then edit like crazy (which I get off on anyway), publish, and then post about three revisions after I've had time to read the story very cold. Makes me feel dumb. That's probably good for me.

 

[KeithD]

I think I'm from the "write hot," "review hot," "edit cool" school. I push through to the end on the draft. I always add in review, often in the sex parts. I edit sometime later, before submitting it anywhere. (But then, I usually add in this phase, too, though, so maybe that's a bit of a hot time to. I don't want any pass through the story to be a chore to do).

 

[yukonnights]

Couple of topics here; Story development technique and Beta-reader assistance.

On the story development question; The story is born by an idea — duh . It's usually very sparse. Once I decide to run with it, I sketch out an outline of the scenes I've envisioned after "living with the initial idea" for awhile. These can be basic and simple, or more complex, depending on the story/scene. In this outline, I do my best to get the story sketched from start to ending. Then I start writing.

Most of my stories now tend to be on the "longish side". As I work my way through the outlined parts and write the story, the story isn't all that firm or fixed and this is when the characters insert new ideas that need to be added to the outline. And so on to the end. (If I've decided on a multi-part story format, this is also the time I pencil in the Part breaks. I'll do a word count on what I've chosen as Part 'x', and note it at the bottom break in red font(15k words to here ~ 4 Lit pages) (If a short description pops into my head, I'll jot that down too.) Then proceed to the next part...and so on.

I have 'auto spell-check' on as I write. Also, I either scan, or more closely read, the story from the start each time I sit down to write the next scene/part. This is where I edit, notice problems, think of that great scene that needs to be added, etc. By doing this, I end up reading the thing many times. It still needs a final "out-loud read" when it's completed to the end, but at this point I've done my best.

When I consider it completed, I try to find someone to proof-read (beta-read, etc.) This is a hit and miss deal for me. I'm often writing in the LGBTQ genres and not everyone is comfortable with these — either just unfamiliar with the details or squeamish. I much prefer to have some fresh eyes look at it because, obviously, I'm pretty blind to my mistakes by now. But, outside help or not, it's time to publish.

***

The Beta Reader/Editor thing; Lately, I've been doing much more volunteering than getting help myself. My approach is to; 1) Identify obvious typos, improper word choice or tense shifts, inconsistencies, etc. 2) But I'm also willing to dip my pen into the ink well and "suggest" alternative text — or even plot ideas. I try to keep a lite touch though. Lately, I've been helping some new members and they seem to be happy with my approach. 3) As to 8letters OP; I tend to agree with the view that it need not be writing by committee. While I can see how that could occur, I like the point that these "proof-readers" and "editors" can open the author's eyes to patterns and habits that are not helpful. While I might balk at the time involved and the complexity of this approach, I see the benefits if one can work this way. (I may steal that idea about leaving a comment soliciting readers of my story to beta-read new stories. That's quite clever.)

 

[shawnavinyltv]

I tend to have several dozen story ideas swimming around in my head at any one time. Once I get one that's resolved in my mind beyond just a basic idea, I'll start actually writing. (As an aside, what's a good term for that? "Putting pen to paper" seems so anachronistic, but "putting electrons to screen" just sounds stupid...) I generally hit natural stopping points in the writing typically about every five pages or so in a Word doc. I'll go back and review, makes any edits or changes I need. Then write another batch, and then go back and re-read and edit the whole thing.

The main issue I've run into here is that this tends to make the first half of stories very polished, while the ending can seem rushed or sloppy. The only option I've come up with is to re-edit after I've started writing something else, and that seems to help a bit. It does make my writing process REALLY slow though, and I'm not a speedy typist to begin with!

 

[Brutal_One]

I usually write my first draft straight through. Sometimes in one sitting but normally would be over two or three consecutive days. In the ‘early days’ sans editor I would just submit after a quick read through in preview.

Since having the benefit of an editor my process is similar but now after the first draft I process through grammarly for the ‘obvious’ grammar and punctuation corrections, while I ‘attempt’ to write as grammatically correct as I go I can rely on grammarly to catch the usual suspects.

As such it does not add too much extra time and I can submit a better version for editor to look at without having to pick up the ‘obvious’ stuff so her time is much better spent on quality editing.

Brutal One

 

[8letters]

As an epilogue to this discussion, the story was published yesterday (link in my sig). After day one, a 4.78 rating and 18 comments, all but one of which were very positive. Getting a very high rating is very important to me, and the initial version of the story wouldn't have gotten one (I'd guess like a 4.6). But because people showed me the weak points of the story and I made the corresponding changes, I got a reception I'm very happy with.

 

[Voboy]

As an epilogue to this discussion, the story was published yesterday (link in my sig). After day one, a 4.78 rating and 18 comments, all but one of which were very positive. Getting a very high rating is very important to me, and the initial version of the story wouldn't have gotten one (I'd guess like a 4.6). But because people showed me the weak points of the story and I made the corresponding changes, I got a reception I'm very happy with.

Congratulations.

I'm glad you've found a way to meet your goals.

 

[Nexte100]

Like many others here, I tend to edit as I write. Sadly, this often means I've made so many read-throughs of my chapter by the time I submit it that I can't tell palate from palette. So I finish with a pass through Grammarly and call it a day.

I used to do far less editing and revising, and I've certainly found that the quality of my writing has risen, to an extent. I also don't cringe quite as much on reading my writing as I do my older material (not that there's an abundance of it). But I will say my current pace at turning out writing is absolutely glacial compared to what it used to be. I didn't focus so much on the details and flow, and just let creativity prevail. In some respects, I regret the "progress".

I'll also say that I think with some experience comes a certain degree of a "well, some people will dislike the story regardless of how refined and technically proficient its prose is" attitude. I try to accomplish too much and get discouraged that my writing is inadequate and that a chapter I'm writing is not coming together well. Overall, I think it's about balance, for me. Ideally I'm striving for a good balance of creative spontaneity and quick pace with technical proficiency, artful presentation, and refinement.

I'm not there yet...