LJ_Reloaded
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I already explained why your arrest numbers figure was a bad standard to use.
Even women complain about bias in prostitution arrest rates.
Who are there more women than men in college? Because women can find funding! Duh.
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Even women complain about bias in prostitution arrest rates.
badbabysitter
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that's not the point.. if there is no market for these men ...why are they getting arrested?
wouldnt it be incredibly illogical for men to commit crimes if they knew there was no profit involved?
have you ever looked at craigslist? check out the men for men section... have you ever been to a cruise in a major city?
ever looked at the back of gay newspapaers, or hell, regular ones under escorts? those buff men in the pictures aren't looking for women.. just so you know
as for the bias.. what mainly gets me is that only 6 % of prostitution busts are the johns themselves..... it's essentially promoting a free ride to the people who buy sex in the first place
LJ_Reloaded
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What you're vastly underestimating is the number of women prostitutes. There are a lot that don't get arrested because they don't operate on the streets. Every now and then one of these groups gets careless though and a banker or politician or two will pop up as a client.
badbabysitter
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Be that as it may.. it still doesnt change that men are still prostitutes as well
take a look at Nevada.. prositution is legal there, but men were barred from entering it essentially because a cervical exam was mandatory.. eventually the rights for male prostitutes won out and a male sex trade worker was hired to service women exclusively.. he quit several weeks later
last year a luxury gay bordello was built in Switzerland to meet popular demand
i personally believe you are over-estimating the amount of women that visit prositutes and under-estimating the amout of men that do
and based off arrest figures.. its hard to tell who exactly is right on this.. as it's never the customers that get punished, just the workers themselves
badbabysitter
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a friend of mine from PEERS forwarded me this a few days ago, i totally forgot about it due to it being a few years old.. but might help with some perspective
http://www.vancouverfoundationstories.ca/story.php?recordID=278
t’s just a pair of socks.
But Matthew Taylor knows those two bits of grey wool could make the difference between a good decision and a bad date tonight for a young man on the rain-slicked streets of downtown Vancouver.
Taylor and another outreach worker are walking through downtown south and Yaletown. At night, this tony enclave of brick faced boutiques, galleries and restaurants reveals another, seamier side. One not mentioned in the tourist brochures or condo ads. That’s when part of Vancouver’s trendiest residential neighbourhood for urban professionals becomes “Boystown” -- a popular “stroll” for men seeking sex with young boys.
Taylor and his colleague are making the rounds, making contact, dispensing a little food, warm clothing, and support. Three nights a week they’re out, on downtown Vancouver street corners and in the bars. It’s a late shift – 7-9, 9-12 and even 1-3 in the morning on occasion. They carry safe sex materials, needle exchange, beverages, snacks and socks.
On a typical night they’ll see 25 to 30 young men. Some are under 18. Many are addicted.
“These guys have very little support,” says Taylor. “Some of their realities are broken homes, sexual abuse, identity crisis … Addiction is big. We’re seeing a lot of serious problems -- crystal meth, pot, alcohol, heroin.”
Taylor is the driving force behind “HUSTLE - Men on the Move” – one of the few outreach and support programs for male sex trade workers and at-risk youth in Canada. He leads a team of four staff who engage with the community. And he knows what he’s talking about. He worked as a male escort in Vancouver, on and off the street -- sometimes this very street -- for six years.
“I wasn’t the typical guy in the trade,” says Taylor. “I got into it late, and I came from a wonderful loving family. At one point in my life, I made some bad decisions.
I got really good at being really lost for a few years … That’s why I know a full stomach and warm dry feet can do a lot for making better decisions. It can make a huge difference in terms of somebody’s perceptions, and their empowerment. If we can make these guys feel less isolated, feel like they matter, then that’s accomplishing a lot.”
The lack of specific support for male sex trade workers led Taylor and a colleague to start “HUSTLE” as a pilot project in May 2007, in partnership with PEERS Vancouver Resource Society.
While core funding is from the CKNW Orphans Fund, a recent grant of $60,000 over three years from Vancouver Foundation donors has helped keep the program running and enabled HUSTLE to offer mentoring to a youth worker in frontline service and support.
According to Taylor, men often don’t feel comfortable accessing traditional services for sex workers because these are usually geared towards women. This focus does not address issues of shame, sexual identity, and the repression of emotion that is such a strong part of the male experience.
Taylor and his outreach workers also know how tough it is to get off the street. “When you’re hungry and addicted, you’re going to do whatever it takes to survive … Because we’re hands-on, we’re frontline, in the trenches, dealing with people with addictions, we see it all the time,” he says.
Gaining trust often takes time, and may involve taking some verbal abuse. “We don’t take it personally. But we come back. We’re consistent.”
That commitment has led to a bit of grudging respect from young men on the street, and a glimmer of recognition from funding agencies. “It’s taken a while to build those relationships. There’s some street cred and some recognition that we’ve been there, done that.”
Some experts estimate that only 10 to 15 per cent of the sex industry in B.C. is based outdoors. That most of it takes place in homes, hotels or municipally-licensed businesses. But no one knows how many young boys and men are selling sex in Vancouver, and where.
Dr. Sue McIntyre is one of the few researchers to study male sex trade workers in Canada. Her 2005 report Under the Radar: the Sexual Exploitation of Young Men is a disturbing glimpse into the world of male prostitution and exploitation. Her findings, the product of more than 150 interviews, back up Taylor’s experience on the street:
* Most male sex workers (75%) entered the trade before the age of 18
* Young men start younger and tend to stay longer in the trade than women.
* Many male sex workers (more than 40%) are aboriginal boys and men catering to a customer base that is predominantly middle- to upper-class and white
* It’s a rough business. Most male hustlers have experienced violence (80% report being beaten up at least once)
* There are fewer opportunities for males to exit the trade (for example, childbirth is a chance for young women to get out. It often brings support from the family or the state. This is not an option for men).
* Exiting the trade is a long process, usually attempted more than once.
And until 2007, and “HUSTLE”, there were no specific programs for men in the trade. The exploitation of young men has never had the profile of female sex workers. It has always existed, literally, in the shadows.
Though even that’s changing, says Taylor. The trade is moving indoors, and online. The street corner is being replaced with chat lines, craigslist, Facebook and other social networking sites. “Actually it’s going back and forth between the street and the computer. The lines are more blurred now.”
“HUSTLE” is adapting to keep up. In addition to street outreach, they have a support group for survival sex trade workers that meets every Wednesday night.
“It’s a safe and comfortable atmosphere where men can share their experiences and challenges,” says Taylor. “Very come as you are. Very low barrier.”
“HUSTLE” also has plans to build a life skills toolkit specifically for male sex workers.
And they’d like to explore the possibility of dedicated housing.
In the meantime, the street outreach continues. “HUSTLE” workers are out three nights a week, in all kinds of weather … making contact with male sex workers and at-risk youth.
It may be just a pair of socks. But for Matthew Taylor, and for the young man waiting in the shadows, it’s a start.
To find out more about HUSTLE – Men on the Move visit the website at www.peersvancouver.org or call 778.868.1776. To donate to the program, call 604.688.2204.
http://www.vancouverfoundationstories.ca/story.php?recordID=278
t’s just a pair of socks.
But Matthew Taylor knows those two bits of grey wool could make the difference between a good decision and a bad date tonight for a young man on the rain-slicked streets of downtown Vancouver.
Taylor and another outreach worker are walking through downtown south and Yaletown. At night, this tony enclave of brick faced boutiques, galleries and restaurants reveals another, seamier side. One not mentioned in the tourist brochures or condo ads. That’s when part of Vancouver’s trendiest residential neighbourhood for urban professionals becomes “Boystown” -- a popular “stroll” for men seeking sex with young boys.
Taylor and his colleague are making the rounds, making contact, dispensing a little food, warm clothing, and support. Three nights a week they’re out, on downtown Vancouver street corners and in the bars. It’s a late shift – 7-9, 9-12 and even 1-3 in the morning on occasion. They carry safe sex materials, needle exchange, beverages, snacks and socks.
On a typical night they’ll see 25 to 30 young men. Some are under 18. Many are addicted.
“These guys have very little support,” says Taylor. “Some of their realities are broken homes, sexual abuse, identity crisis … Addiction is big. We’re seeing a lot of serious problems -- crystal meth, pot, alcohol, heroin.”
Taylor is the driving force behind “HUSTLE - Men on the Move” – one of the few outreach and support programs for male sex trade workers and at-risk youth in Canada. He leads a team of four staff who engage with the community. And he knows what he’s talking about. He worked as a male escort in Vancouver, on and off the street -- sometimes this very street -- for six years.
“I wasn’t the typical guy in the trade,” says Taylor. “I got into it late, and I came from a wonderful loving family. At one point in my life, I made some bad decisions.
I got really good at being really lost for a few years … That’s why I know a full stomach and warm dry feet can do a lot for making better decisions. It can make a huge difference in terms of somebody’s perceptions, and their empowerment. If we can make these guys feel less isolated, feel like they matter, then that’s accomplishing a lot.”
The lack of specific support for male sex trade workers led Taylor and a colleague to start “HUSTLE” as a pilot project in May 2007, in partnership with PEERS Vancouver Resource Society.
While core funding is from the CKNW Orphans Fund, a recent grant of $60,000 over three years from Vancouver Foundation donors has helped keep the program running and enabled HUSTLE to offer mentoring to a youth worker in frontline service and support.
According to Taylor, men often don’t feel comfortable accessing traditional services for sex workers because these are usually geared towards women. This focus does not address issues of shame, sexual identity, and the repression of emotion that is such a strong part of the male experience.
Taylor and his outreach workers also know how tough it is to get off the street. “When you’re hungry and addicted, you’re going to do whatever it takes to survive … Because we’re hands-on, we’re frontline, in the trenches, dealing with people with addictions, we see it all the time,” he says.
Gaining trust often takes time, and may involve taking some verbal abuse. “We don’t take it personally. But we come back. We’re consistent.”
That commitment has led to a bit of grudging respect from young men on the street, and a glimmer of recognition from funding agencies. “It’s taken a while to build those relationships. There’s some street cred and some recognition that we’ve been there, done that.”
Some experts estimate that only 10 to 15 per cent of the sex industry in B.C. is based outdoors. That most of it takes place in homes, hotels or municipally-licensed businesses. But no one knows how many young boys and men are selling sex in Vancouver, and where.
Dr. Sue McIntyre is one of the few researchers to study male sex trade workers in Canada. Her 2005 report Under the Radar: the Sexual Exploitation of Young Men is a disturbing glimpse into the world of male prostitution and exploitation. Her findings, the product of more than 150 interviews, back up Taylor’s experience on the street:
* Most male sex workers (75%) entered the trade before the age of 18
* Young men start younger and tend to stay longer in the trade than women.
* Many male sex workers (more than 40%) are aboriginal boys and men catering to a customer base that is predominantly middle- to upper-class and white
* It’s a rough business. Most male hustlers have experienced violence (80% report being beaten up at least once)
* There are fewer opportunities for males to exit the trade (for example, childbirth is a chance for young women to get out. It often brings support from the family or the state. This is not an option for men).
* Exiting the trade is a long process, usually attempted more than once.
And until 2007, and “HUSTLE”, there were no specific programs for men in the trade. The exploitation of young men has never had the profile of female sex workers. It has always existed, literally, in the shadows.
Though even that’s changing, says Taylor. The trade is moving indoors, and online. The street corner is being replaced with chat lines, craigslist, Facebook and other social networking sites. “Actually it’s going back and forth between the street and the computer. The lines are more blurred now.”
“HUSTLE” is adapting to keep up. In addition to street outreach, they have a support group for survival sex trade workers that meets every Wednesday night.
“It’s a safe and comfortable atmosphere where men can share their experiences and challenges,” says Taylor. “Very come as you are. Very low barrier.”
“HUSTLE” also has plans to build a life skills toolkit specifically for male sex workers.
And they’d like to explore the possibility of dedicated housing.
In the meantime, the street outreach continues. “HUSTLE” workers are out three nights a week, in all kinds of weather … making contact with male sex workers and at-risk youth.
It may be just a pair of socks. But for Matthew Taylor, and for the young man waiting in the shadows, it’s a start.
To find out more about HUSTLE – Men on the Move visit the website at www.peersvancouver.org or call 778.868.1776. To donate to the program, call 604.688.2204.
LJ_Reloaded
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Actually I'm saying that almost NO women take the services of prostitutes, male or female. And your anecdotes and "arrest records" vastly overestimate the number of male prostitutes out there. The real number may be north of my beliefs but they are also significantly south of yours.
If you're a poor male student your odds aren't even a small fraction as good as a woman's in this field.
And as I said in the OP, the issue is a male prostitute finding a sugar momma. Ain't ever likely to happen.
renard_ruse
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Bingo. It makes no sense unless the dude is really old or butt ugly (maybe not the right choice of words, lol).
I'm not homsexual but I could be having free gay sex within 20 minutes if I wanted to. Have you ever been to an adult arcade and seen all those guys milling around? They aren't prostitutes.
There are also public restrooms, certain parks, and of course, bath houses for easy annonymous homosexual activity. If there really is a lot of homosexual prostitution my bet is that as much as anything its an effort to mimick heterosexual behavior, not because there's no free action available.
renard_ruse
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I disagree with that re: women on women prostitution. There is a small but stable market for women on women prostitution (though sometimes this is part of a couple buying the services of the female prostitute).
Its obvious that women pay women to strip for them and provide lap dances these days (have you been to a strip club in the last 15 years?), so I would imagine that some carry it the extra step to get the panties off.
Its more of the advantage that women have in life. They are more wanted sexually than men are, and yet, this is still turned ass-backwards to make them look like victims because the ideological presumption is that they are always the victim.
(I know you don't like me, so I'll leave your thread now but wanted to add that to the discourse)
badbabysitter
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Here's the thing.. you've brought nothing ( factual or anecdotal) to suggest that there isnt a significant male sex trade worker population
I personally dont know how large or small the numbers are.. the percentages already suggest a significant number less for men..hell, I'd probably go as low as 10 per cent to the woman's 90
as for men finding sugar momma's.. well....
http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/11/26/us-sextourism-idUSN2638979720071126
http://english.prav******/society/sex/29-06-2007/94318-sex_tourism-0/
SgtSpiderMan
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I agree there are fewer gay guys than straight guys, but that doesn't mean there is a lack of demand.
From the article you posted it doesn't seem like there is any attraction on the woman's part.
Neither of those factors stops a guy from being gay for pay.
badbabysitter
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I agreed with you on the first part,,, amazingly enough
and then you had to go and ruin a perfectly good Kodak moment
saying prostitution is advantage is naive at the very least.. and then pretending there is no victimization is even more foolish
case in point.. Robert Pickton... convicted of murdering 26 sex trade workers... the dna remains of at least 40 other women were never identified without a degree of error.. these women went missing over a period of 20 years....................................no one cared
child prositution very much exists.. or do you think sex tours through Asia are fictional?
one third of sex trade workers on the street in North America are under 18 years old.. of that, the average age for entry into prostitution is 12 to 14
per occupation, female sex trade workers are at the highest risk of being murdered 204 per 100, 000.. male taxi cab drivers are second to them with 29 per 100 000
badbabysitter
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hehehehe
LJ_Reloaded
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LJ_Reloaded
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Calling Cutebrat, calling Cutebrat!
*Sigh*
That's like saying factory work is not advantage (hey, it's good grammar for badbabysitter!) because you can find child labor and people getting killed in Chinese factories.
CuteBrat
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LJ_Reloaded
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I misspelled 'why'. Do you have any evidence to show it was anything more than a misspelling? Or are you just a troll?
badbabysitter
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so..factory workers are regularly murdered, their bodies stuffed into wood chippers and then fed to animals?
that factory workers have a higher murder rate? that factory workers have a higher rate of being forced into their jobs due to addiction and violence?
just because its earning money , doesnt make it an advantage
and as I've clearly shown.. men have that " advantage" too
and I wasnt complaining about the grammar.. mine is fucking atrocious..i just thought it was funny
lustatopia
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I misspelled 'why'. Do you have any evidence to show it was anything more than a misspelling?
http://desertpeace.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/moron5x.jpg
http://desertpeace.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/moron5x.jpg
LJ_Reloaded
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It happens now and then. I do worker's comp. NONE of the carriers I work with will insure that kind of work because of the hazards. Plus illegals die of heat stroke all the time. It's not like murder or being thrown into wood chippers, but dead by employer gross negligence is still dead by someone's maliciously willful actions.
Dead is dead. Death happens in factories (especially overseas). Your logic dictates that since people die in that field of work due to work hazards (and pimps and psychotic customers would logically be work hazards in that context), the line of work itself is not advantageous.
Dead is dead.
You're right. She could always just starve.
Once again, my OP pointed out that women can choose to get paid for hetero sex. Men don't have that option. Even if they have to go gay for pay the number of gay for pay clients is far less than you're making it out to be. If all the starving men tried gay for pay well over 95% would just starve. Or if they listened to Xenophile they'd go robbing banks (and most likely die, too).
Oh wait, I know. Men could just opt to go to prison. Then women like you could pay the taxes to feed them. Wouldn't that make a few gals rise up in protest!!!!
I was just showing how Cutebrat only went after grammar errors when it's done by a guy. And she proved me right. Women stand by their own gender, just like you do, and yet there's only a problem when guys stand by their own.
badbabysitter
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It happens now and then. I do worker's comp. NONE of the carriers I work with will insure that kind of work because of the hazards. Plus illegals die of heat stroke all the time. It's not like murder or being thrown into wood chippers, but dead by employer gross negligence is still dead by someone's maliciously willful actions.
Dead is dead. Death happens in factories (especially overseas). Your logic dictates that since people die in that field of work due to work hazards (and pimps and psychotic customers would logically be work hazards in that context), the line of work itself is not advantageous.
Dead is dead.
You're right. She could always just starve.
Once again, my OP pointed out that women can choose to get paid for hetero sex. Men don't have that option. Even if they have to go gay for pay the number of gay for pay clients is far less than you're making it out to be. If all the starving men tried gay for pay well over 95% would just starve. Or if they listened to Xenophile they'd go robbing banks (and most likely die, too).
Oh wait, I know. Men could just opt to go to prison. Then women like you could pay the taxes to feed them. Wouldn't that make a few gals rise up in protest!!!!
I was just showing how Cutebrat only went after grammar errors when it's done by a guy. And she proved me right. Women stand by their own gender, just like you do, and yet there's only a problem when guys stand by their own.
first point... you're going to compare serial killing to a workers comp issue
nice
dead is dead? how many occupations are there that have a high rate of homicide?
yeah, and men can starve too if they like.. because there are still male prostitutes.. that still hasnt changed
and I DID point out a few of my posts ago that there ARE men who get paid for heterosexual sex with women... or are you pulling your old " denying by ignoring" trick again?
and the articles I posted concerning male prostitution would also make your statement incorrect about men starving if they had to go gay for play.. but thats just more " denying by ignoring"
and are you saying women don't go to jail for prostitution? seriously?
and as for the last part.. wow, you've got a serious persecution complex.. I found what she said funny.. there are plenty of women on this site I do not and will not stand beside
and c'mon.. you've attacked people for less,,, myself included.. hell, you've gone so far as cheerlead Cade when it came to attacking me.. so one can easily say you do the same when it comes to attacking women
of course that would be stupid to accuse... but I never do see you come running to the side of women when they're attacked on here.. even by people you actively seem t dislike
LJ_Reloaded
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No, I am saying that dead is dead is dead.
Doesn't matter if you're dead.
And there are drunk drivers who make it home safely.
And I can point out that there are also drunk drivers who make it home safely.
You're going by arrest rates, which is horribly flawed.
Plus you totally sidestepped my OP of hetero prostitution. As unlikely as it is for a guy to find gay for pay clients, it's almost (almost but not entirely) unheard of that he'd find any women willing to pay him for sex.
I said that? Really?
Are you... confused?You accuse me of having a persecution complex and then turn around and admit you found her comment funny even though it applied to you as well. You totally fail to miss the irony, probably because you're a woman and knew you wouldn't get targeted.
Nothing is funny when you're the target. What cracks me up (at your expense, of course) is just how FAST you came right back with an even bigger grammar fuckup right after laughing at me. It totally misses you that you're throwing bricks from a glass house!!!
Actually I told you to ignore the little shit and stop giving him attention. But then you let KR wind you up, too, so what can I say.
Because plenty of women and chivalrous sexual brownie point-hunting men do that for me.
Everyone speaks up for women. No one speaks up for men. Men get piled on.
badbabysitter
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No, I am saying that dead is dead is dead.
Doesn't matter if you're dead.
And there are drunk drivers who make it home safely.
And I can point out that there are also drunk drivers who make it home safely.
You're going by arrest rates, which is horribly flawed.
Plus you totally sidestepped my OP of hetero prostitution. As unlikely as it is for a guy to find gay for pay clients, it's almost (almost but not entirely) unheard of that he'd find any women willing to pay him for sex.
I said that? Really?
You accuse me of having a persecution complex and then turn around and admit you found her comment funny even though it applied to you as well. You totally fail to miss the irony, probably because you're a woman and knew you wouldn't get targeted.
Nothing is funny when you're the target. What cracks me up (at your expense, of course) is just how FAST you came right back with an even bigger grammar fuckup right after laughing at me. It totally misses you that you're throwing bricks from a glass house!!!
Actually I told you to ignore the little shit and stop giving him attention. But then you let KR wind you up, too, so what can I say.
Because plenty of women and chivalrous sexual brownie point-hunting men do that for me.
Everyone speaks up for women. No one speaks up for men. Men get piled on.
dead is dead... but you started comparing it to work place injury... like someone dropped a heavy box on their foot
and drunk driving is also illegal... unless of course you think drunk driving is perfectly safe because the vast majority of them don't kill people
and I can still point out the thousands of drunk drivers that DO kill people
so incarcertion rates and arrest rates are completely innaccurate.. we could then claim that there arent as many female sex trade workers despite the all the adverts.. because that would only reflect a superficial euyeball
and hell, most sex trade isnt even on the street..... so who knows exactly how many men and women truly are....
and I'm not side stepping I already said that there ARE women that pay for sex.. i even linked it in a post...don't blame me if you didnt bother to read it
when you said men can just opt to go to prison, then women would have to pay tax to feed them
that suggests women dont go to jail for prostitution.. for feeding themselves through the sex trade.. feeding their families through prostitution
or is this some amicus arguement that only men are allowed to be primary bread earners?
so I found a comment funny... about your thread title...that must mean I would only find something funny about attacking you?
I make mistakes all the time.. and people point them out all the time..sometimes mocking me to great lengths about my grammar
what I dont do is piss about for multiple posts therafter..it would make me seem petulant and childish if I did
and you've only recently started telling Cade off... i can point out times you actively supported him.. merely because I was the one he was attacking
maybe its because I'm one of the few people that actively engages you with full conversations
Have you ever been to Lit? you do realize why people stand up for women on here.. because there multiple threads about how bad women are... look at amicus..or renard ....with you at least you get some salient points across... all they do is spew out random completely falsified rhetoric that they interpret as gospel and fact
and this is a porn site.. of course men are sucking up to women.. they're horny... hell, that's probably the primary reason men suck up to women in the first place
as for men getting piled on.. please.. you tried that tactic with me before and you still havent bothered replying to my deconstruction
