Where do you think your dom/sub side's psychological origin is?

[Marquis]

I have struggled for a long time with paranoia and I was recently diagnosed with bipolar disorder. I have finally agreed to start seeking the help of a shrink, and am in the early stages of therapy. As a result of this, I have started to look inward a lot and question who I am and why I'm this way. Being dominant is only a small part of my personality, but I cannot help but wonder where it came from. I think I can make a few guesses though.

My mother raised me to believe that my father raped her, and I was the product of said rape. I guess a kid always wants to believe that their parents made the sweetest love the night that they were conceived, and I think what my mother told me really hurt my self esteem as a youngster. Possibly in order to defend my self esteem, I developed a sick fascination with rape. I overcompensated with my fear of how I was conceived by watching with hypnotic fixation any kind of rape scene in a movie, and I read rape scenes in books over and over. I think a good deal of my sexual associations and kinky persuasions stem there.

I think there may be another part to this. Although I can't say for sure, I am fairly certain my late mother was bipolar. She was a Haitian immigrant and married a native Kenyan man, so you can imagine that she was not surrounded by individuals familiar with the nuances of mental health. To her family (most of whom is just as crazy) and to her husband, she was just out of control. However, her and I had the type of codependent relationship typical of women who have children very young and when they don't have much else in their lives. In many ways I played the role of her therapist, and got used to calming her down when she became manic or raising her spirits when she was depressed. Because of this, we had a weird power struggle in our relationship where she would accept help from me, but then later regret it because she thought it questioned her authority as my mother.

I have somewhat of an alpha male complex and it makes it difficult for me to keep friends sometimes, but I think that my constant struggle for power is likely caused by the above, and is most exhibited in my relationships with women.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Smiling

... and waiting.

 

[Kajira Callista]

i will...if someone else does first....i'm too shy to be first.

 

[Marquis]

I went first.

 

[bridgeburner]

I'm feeling brave and anonymous today or perhaps that's reckless and invisble. ;->

My suspicion is that sexually I'm a bottom. Hard to say since my experience is limited, but that's my story for now and I'm sticking to it.

I've been fascinated by violence, rape scenarios and other male dominant female submissive themes since I was a child. As young as 4 years old, truth be told. I always wanted to see more nudity, true menace and for the heroine to not be rescued until after she'd been raped.

I don't really know why. My parents fought and divorced when I was young, but they were not physically abusive with each other and when they weren't fighting we had a good time as a family. I have to say that my father's sexuality was a major cause for the rift between them, though. Not just the fact that he cheated on my mother, but also I think because my mother wasn't comfortable with blatant carnality and it was very much --- still is very much --- a part of my father's personality.

So, perhaps I come by it honestly through my genetics -- a strong drive and preoccupation with sexuality.

Why am I interested in the darker elements? Hell, I don't know. Why do I love ghost stories?

I'll have to think on it some more and get back to you. My thoughts are kind of disjointed right now.


-B

 

[rosco rathbone]

She was a Haitian immigrant and married a native Kenyan man

With your genes, it's no suprise you ended up dominant, buddy. My observations show me that the African peoples are the last true refuge of male domination upon the planet. The wellspring, the fountainhead so to speak.

So you go on with your bad mojo self. It's your blood, not your psyche.

 

[Quint]

My parents have been happily married for 22 years and I've never seen any sign, no matter how covert, of kinky or even strongly sensual undertones from either of them. So it wasn't following in my father's footsteps. Sex was discouraged but not as taboo as, say, a traditional Catholic household. So it wasn't rebellion. I've never been abused in any way and in fact my self-esteem was pretty constantly affirmed by both my parents. So it wasn't self-loathing.

I'll get more on this later.

 

[Marquis]

Re: Re: Where do you think your dom/sub side's psychological origin is?

With your genes, it's no suprise you ended up dominant, buddy. My observations show me that the African peoples are the last true refuge of male domination upon the planet. The wellspring, the fountainhead so to speak.

So you go on with your bad mojo self. It's your blood, not your psyche.

My biological father is a white Jew with a domineering mother.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I actually think i was born submissive, or different. My whole life i have always prefered to be in the background, always quiet, very shy. The way i was raised enhanced what i started out as. I'm from an italian-irish american/catholic family. My father is very dominant, my grandfather was also...my mother not so submissive but granny was. I think she knew i was also and kinda took me under her wing, she taught me to do all the household type stuff that was important to grandpa, i knew what time his coffee was brought to him, what time dinner had to be ready...things like that. It always was a comfortable feeling to be that way from as far back as i can remember so i guess i would say that watching grandma and learning those things was the first step in developing it. My cultural background added to it as did my religion. But it is something that has always been inside me.



Just an aside
Marquis, analyzing what you are doesnt make it go away. Learning to accept it makes life much more peaceful.

 

[NCShin]

wow...

I kinda avoid this topic within myself and just accept that it's what i like.

While I thought my childhood was fairly normal at the time, I think looking back, and getting some feedback from friends away from where I grew up as made me realize it was far from the norm.

First things first. When I was VERY young, (pre-k) a girl from accross the street and I did some things that kids at that age should not know about.

I never thought about it much, but we both must have seen it happening (i don't remember her or I really being the one to suggest the activity).

At a slightly older age, though still prior to middle school, I remember being made? forced? told? asked? to watch some older kids having sex. That memory is very faded and unclear, but I do remember that the girl from across the street was standing next to me.

I actually do not think those events really shaped my sexuality all that much as neither are really my kinks today.

I have an idea what might have shaped it more, but out of respect for family members involved I'll not post them here.

 

[ownedsubgal]

i don't believe there is any psychological origin to one being submissive or Dominant. it is just the way one is born, imo. yes, i've had a difficult life. a lot of abuse, a lot of disappointments, pain, blah blah blah...but none of it made me a submissive. that is who i have always been, seemingly since i came out of the womb...quiet, shy, timid, and very submissive.

 

[SubmissiveDove5]

For me, being submissive is mostly due to my disability, or so I think anyway. I think that had I not been delt the obstacles, limitations, discriminations etc, I would have been much more dominant. Thhis is just my opinion though. I could be wrong.

I too do not believe it has anything to do with the psychie or anything psychological. I've often blamed situations in my life on negative things in the past, but I think I have finally accepted everything for what it is.

 

[Marquis]

This thread has nothing to do with not accepting who I am.


Waiting to here more from you Quint.

What about some of the other usuals? Rosco, I'm sure you have an answer for this one. Netzach? Pure? Catalina Francisco?

 

[bridgeburner]

Okay, this is wacky, but I wrote and re-wrote that post so many times yesterday that I forgot what I had and hadn't said. I left out a lot of things that I think are important.

Sexually I'm probably a bottom, but as pervasive as my sexuality is, I don't live my whole life like I behave or wish to behave in the sack.

In my day to day dealings outside of the bedroom I'm not in the least inclined to be submissive. I'm not a ball-buster or even intent on ruling the world, but I'm smart and assertive by nature and people tend to defer to my judgement and look to me for guidance. It's apparently the natural order of things and I've gotten to where I just don't question it anymore.

I've heard the theory often that many who are in a position of power and responsibility in their working lives are attracted to the submissive role because it allows them to unburden themselves from that responsibility and the pressure of being in charge. I can see the sense in that but it doesn't really resonate in my life. I'm not in all that powerful a position and I don't routinely seek them out. It just happens.



Grrrrr......train of thought just jumped the tracks again. Somewhat distracted today. Will return.


-B

 

[Netzach]

I've posted about this before and I'm happy to post about it again. I definitely think that my Dominant orientation points back to early family issues.

I was raised by a single mom living with her parents. Already, the chain of command was very muddy, and it was made very clear to me by my grandparents' constant and frankly, abusive criticism of my mom that she was not the leader. So I got a clear message on one level that I could do whatever I wanted. This was reinforced by my intellectual capacities - since I had almost no friends my age and no brothers or sisters, I operated on an adult level from the get go.

Contrast - my family stumbles through life with little direction and an overriding feeling of victimization and helplessness. One message I got was that I didn't have to obey any authority, the other message I got was that the world is a horrible place out to get you, so I grew up under a kind of surveillance. I wasn't able to walk to school without my grandmother tailing me by about a block till I was sixteen, almost seventeen. My mother still asks me how much everything costs that I buy, asks if I'm keeping my house clean (I'm not and I never did, wtf?) and when I was late arriving to campus my sophomore year, I found that the Chicago police had been alerted to my five hour lateness. No one else had this kind of greeting at school.

So on many levels, I doubted my capacity to function independently. I must be really vulnerable and stupid to need so much looking after.

If you add some therapy and meds into the mix, 1500 miles distance and a number of years, it's very easy for me to admit that taking responsibility for another party, taking them on the psychic journey of a scene and everyone coming out ok and intact on the other end, because I'm NOT a fuck up...every time I play that out, I find a great feeling of security and satisfaction. Not only can I take care of myself, other intelligent adults entrust me to take care of them, regularly, and I don't let them down.

It's a good feeling. Nothing else has put me in such close touch with my own competence and ability in such a satisfying way.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Gee - I was raised in an almost 'brady bunch' family atmosphere. My mom taught pre-school and was a very good mother. My dad was the king of our family. But I always knew there was something different about me. Watching Roots as a teenager I remember getting very wet and excited when the slaves were whipped. I married a very strong dominant man at 19. Sadly he was cruel and abusive. After getting myself (and 2 kids) out of that mess I hid my submissiveness for years. Just now starting to explore this side of myself. And loving every minute of it! Does that mean its heriditary? I don't know...... I don't have a clue!

 

[bridgeburner]

Hmm....I had some similarities in my childhood -- divorced mother living with her mother for a number of years, socialized more with adults than peers because of my intellect and the vast amount of time I spent around mostly adults. My mother had to take me with her a lot because we couldn't afford a babysitter.

I had a younger brother, though, and I was my mother's confidant in the years around her separation and divorce from my father. It put me in kind of a parental role both for her and for my brother and my dad has always been a better "chum" than a parent. I was also one of the few people in the family that really got along with my grandmother who was a crotchety old bitch to put it plainly. She reformed years later, but I had a good long time of being her closest confidante as well.

I was always relied on because I was reliable because I was relied on. It made me confident in myself on one level but it was also kind of lonely because I didn't have anyone that I could rely on in the same way that I was reliable.

So I crave that but because the people who would ordinarily have been expected to fill those roles -- parents, teachers, older aqaintences --- have consitently abdicated that role I'm not easily inclined to trust in someone who appears to offer that no matter how badly I want it.

I think there's also quite a bit of ego wrapped up in it. The role I took wasn't exactly my choice, but I'm good at it and I have pride in it and if someone expects me to relinquish that role or step back to/for him then I have to be MADE to believe they're as capable if not more capable than I am myself. I don't like or want to be bullied but a part of me understands that at some level I do need to be pushed if not outright forced.

-B

 

[rosco rathbone]

Re: Re: Re: Where do you think your dom/sub side's psychological origin is?

My biological father is a white Jew with a domineering mother.

All the worse for you, my man.

The jews are the hands down finest, most perverse race on the planet. Mix that with some african blood...fuck. You are a real loose cannon upon the decks of perversity, sonny.

 

[Etoile]

I don't really think of it as a "side" or "facet" ...being submissive is who I am all the time, or at least would like to be. Sometimes I squelch that need, if I have to reprimand somebody or something like that, but I don't call it a "side." It is an integral element of my personality.

As for the psychological origin...shit, that's too much work. I just am.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Wow

I read and re-read this thread while thinking about what got me where I am now. I could say it was the result of early childhood sexual and physical abuse therefore meaning that once I got control of my own body I decided to damn well KEEP control of it.
After all, that could be a part of it but it is not all of it.

I remember when I was young feeling so alone because I was one of the first KNOWN bi-racial children in my hometown. White kids thought I was too dark, black kids thought I acted too white. That made me stubborn, it made me hard and it also gave me a bit of a *goddess* complex. In other words: I figured that if I caused so much talk they all must want to be like me.

I learned control: self control and control of others at a very early age. Learned to fake and hide, deny deny deny everything for that semblance of control that I always needed. The problems with all of that was losing the control and wanting (at times) to lose myself completely in the pain and heartache of others. I could help them even if i was falling apart. (Which by goddess no one would ever know from ME!)

I guess my background should have left me more submissive than I am in reality. I do get off on pain and I know that it comes from past abuse as I internalized it and made it sexual to avoid feeling hurt.

Like the thread starter I also have a mental illness and it is a part of my family tree (my mom was manic-depressive, her aunt was schizophrenic as well as her half brother. I have trouble with depression which I take meds for and so does my brother.)

Even though I have typed away for a good 15 minutes, I still haven't the faintest idea (really) why I turned out to be a alpha personality with a need for pain. All those things may add up to one portion of it, but there has got to be a bit more, yes?

Luna

 

[Quint]

Round 2. I'm a military brat. As is pretty standard, we moved every two years. I remember being fairly well adjusted to this sort of lifestyle until around 4th grade, when I realized that people had formed pretty solid groups of friends that I had to break into or stand and watch from the sidelines. I did a little of both until I got into high school, where I just didn't ever have the balls to break their formations.

When I was pre-third grade, my mom says that I would sit in my front yard and shout, "Hey kid! Come and play with me!" to anyone passing by on a bike or walking. I had no idea who they were and I was fearless. I sold girl scout cookies by myself. I talked to strangers on my block. Then suddenly I was a girl who skipped lunch because she couldn't stand for people to see her sitting by herself and couldn't conceive of anyone wanting her to sit with them. I don't know what exactly triggered that change, but I shapeshifted from social butterfly to lone wolf. (Much different than a Luna_Wolf.)

My fascination with pain and humiliation originated at an early enough age that I cannot give it a psychological cause, so I can support the theory that I just was born that way. But I also realize that a taste for torture and degradation does not a submissive make. I still feel like behind my "whatever makes you happy, sir" lies a "whatever makes me special and wanted in your eyes so I won't be alone, sir." Classic dependency issue.

Not to go on, but I think it's also because I have had such high expectations of myself, as have the people whose respect I crave. I hatehatehate disappointing people and I'm constantly measuring myself against where I feel I should be, which (fortunately?) is rarely as compared to other people. This is an ideal way to categorize the ways and degrees that I am pleasing someone--do I get a pat on the head, or a smile, or an orgasm, or a treat when we go out? It's like being a child and living by a code of rewards and punishments without needing to understand why each occurs.

No, I don't really respect much of my drive. The masochism I understand and accept with no hesitation. But I don't like where the "submission" comes from.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

(Much different than a Luna_Wolf.)

Though I read your post and understood it (as you write quite well) this particular line made me laugh...

(which is one laugh more than I have had all day long)

Luna

(sorry for the hi-jack all)

 

[Marquis]

No, I don't really respect much of my drive. The masochism I understand and accept with no hesitation. But I don't like where the "submission" comes from.

Trippy.

 

[boz]

Too bad more people haven't felt willing/interested in replying to this thread; it's what originally drew me to the forum part of Lit many years ago.

But I also realize that a taste for torture and degradation does not a submissive make. I still feel like behind my "whatever makes you happy, sir" lies a "whatever makes me special and wanted in your eyes so I won't be alone, sir." Classic dependency issue.

And my brain works in the reverse. My objective is to find those things that give the sub what they seek, whether they know it consciously or not. I seek to control the instruments, and at the same time be an instrument, that allows, no, makes the sub "be all that they can be". I'm probably just as dependant as you, Quint, as a result. Just for the inverse reasons. You and I would likely be a bad match (not that either of us proposed that) for that same reason.

I have some of that omnipotent, God-desire where I want to be in control of most, if not all, elements. That's what led me to be a music composition major; I wanted to be the one who decided what notes everyone played, I wanted to create my own world, and have other people participate in it.

 

[shy slave]

Round 2. I'm a military brat. As is pretty standard, we moved every two years. I remember being fairly well adjusted to this sort of lifestyle until around 4th grade, when I realized that people had formed pretty solid groups of friends that I had to break into or stand and watch from the sidelines. I did a little of both until I got into high school, where I just didn't ever have the balls to break their formations.

Quint and I have similar background. I was a RAF brat, as the youngest of three girls and and small age gap between myself and sisters, I was a lone wolf turned into ‘Sod off I don’t need you’ wolf.
My father was an autocratic bastard throughout our childhoods, if he said jump, you jumped, you did NOT ask why or how high!
Makes for an unhappy time I hide behind bravado and became an observer of others. Ok, I had an opinion but I never really learnt ‘right time right place, nor did I learn about cozy friendships or how to share. In each place I moved to I was aware of who the bullies were and who were the underdogs. Too many times I was that short kid who took on the bullies verbally and won. A dangerous game
I ended up as single parent with two sons and gained an education waiting for them to grow up a little.
I needed a strong voice and learnt to be assertive to enable me to have the life I wanted for myself and the boys.
I am a strong assertive person but ironically I don’t always want to be. I discovered I enjoy looking after people, I had done this everywhere we lived in protecting the underdog. It has been a natural progression to becoming a sub/slave. In reality I am too assertive and questioning to settle into a ‘true’ slave role. Luckily Master likes that aspect of me. I love to be told what, how and when to do things both sexually and non-sexually. It gives both purpose and role outside the work place. It also gives me freedom from decision making which I find can be both second nature and tiresome.

I guess therefore, it’s a mix of constant moving and feeling displaced, as well as observing the cruelty of others that has made me a sub. I am aware I could easily have been a Dom, had I wanted to be ‘in charge 24/7 as my father was.
As a final note my father and I have long ago made peace with each other and have talked through the past (complete with swearing shouting and name calling from both of us), we recognise our similarities and differences and our relationship has involved into a reasonably healthy respect for each other.