When the Name is a Thing

[GirlWatch]

So in writing I've sometimes gotten feedback that a choice of word knocked the reader out of the piece. Sometimes it's a regionalism ("if the story's in Minnesota we call it pop", sometimes it's tied to role/gender/class ("a woman would never call it that"), sometimes it's another context.

What's your favorite (or most disliked) variation of the name of a thing? What's one that puzzles you?

I'll start with one that I've heard before: panties vs underwear.

Victoria's Secret sells them as "panties" and that's what you'll see most often in erotica. But I've heard from female friends that they always call them just "underwear", in some opinions perhaps only underwear that is particularly sexy are "panties."

 

[Kantarii]

I've heard panties referred to as knickers, but that doesn't sound as sexy to me as panties or something a lot more suggestive as a bikini

 

[GirlWatch]

Knickers is definitely the comparable British term. You know right away you're in a Brit's story when your female character was wearing kickers, but on a dare threw them in the skip, and now is considering getting it on with the young man in the lift.

 

[sr71plt]

The panties/knickers issue is just a result of writing for an audience that spans the English-speaking world. You're not going to avoid/win the "which is more correct" battle.

 

[oggbashan]

The panties/knickers issue is just a result of writing for an audience that spans the English-speaking world. You're not going to avoid/win the "which is more correct" battle.

Apart from which is more correct the other difficulty facing writers for an international audience is that what might seem erotic in one country can be ridiculous in another.

Panties/knickers are just one example. In Brit-speak, although knickers are an acceptable usage that can have overtones of large high-waisted 'passion-killers' as worn by schoolgirls doing gymnastics. Some people have a fetish for those, and heavy cotton 'knickers' with a handkerchief pocket are sold for adult women to wear when pretending to be a schoolgirl. Others could consider the word 'knickers' as impossibly juvenile for an adult to say.

Relationships can also cause misunderstandings.

In parts of the Indian sub-continent an 'Aunty' is what would be a MILF in US usage.

Uncle can mean a male child-abuser in parts of Europe.

Cousin? For some a cousin is too close a relative to be considered as a sexual partner without thoughts of incest.

The pitfalls of English that can be read anywhere in the world are legion.

 

[sr71plt]

Apart from which is more correct the other difficulty facing writers for an international audience is that what might seem erotic in one country can be ridiculous in another.

Yes, I think that's the crux of a discussion going on over on the Feedback page concerning South Asian writing.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Apart from which is more correct the other difficulty facing writers for an international audience is that what might seem erotic in one country can be ridiculous in another.

"Thongs". Depending on where you are, sexy underwear or deeply unsexy footwear.

Cousin? For some a cousin is too close a relative to be considered as a sexual partner without thoughts of incest.

In some Australian Aboriginal cultures, certain people are effectively your brother/sister for purposes of incest/taboo, even if you have no blood relation and have never met them before. I edited one story that tripped up on this; fortunately there was an easy work-around.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Like you, pop in the mid-west is a soda, while in New York it's a alcoholic drink.

Crap I just had a shitload of them and poof they are gone...Alzheimer's kicking in.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Victoria's Secret sells them as "panties" and that's what you'll see most often in erotica. But I've heard from female friends that they always call them just "underwear", in some opinions perhaps only underwear that is particularly sexy are "panties."

The thing is to be consistent with your place and setting, I think.

I write stories set in Australia, with an Australian idiom, Australian spelling (generally English English but not always - but not American English is the point), Oz jargon and slang, Oz terminology (which changes from state to state). A reader will be clear they are not in the US, for example. If they can't handle it, that's their problem, not mine. Never get comments on this type of thing.

In terms of underwear, stockings, panties, lingerie, knickers, lacy bra, cotton tails, sports bra, no bra, pantyhose, garter belt, bra strap, brassiere, bikini, jockey shorts, boxers, briefs... where's the problem?

Like Bramblethorn, nobody wears thongs in my writing - nobody wears them on their feet either because they are just not sexy....

 

[GoldenCojones]

Like you, pop in the mid-west is a soda, while in New York it's a alcoholic drink.

Crap I just had a shitload of them and poof they are gone...Alzheimer's kicking in.

Down here in Texas, we don't drink pop or soda, we drink coke and you'll here conversations like:

"Hey get me a coke."

"What kind?"

"Mmm, How about a Dr. Pepper."

And the requester did not change his mind

 

[oggbashan]

The thing is to be consistent with your place and setting, I think.

I write stories set in Australia, with an Australian idiom, Australian spelling (generally English English but not always - but not American English is the point), Oz jargon and slang, Oz terminology (which changes from state to state). A reader will be clear they are not in the US, for example. If they can't handle it, that's their problem, not mine. Never get comments on this type of thing.

...

I thought I would be understood with my story Is E an Aussie, is He Lizzie? but the comments show that some people don't understand the term Pom or Pommie.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

Down here in Texas, we don't drink pop or soda, we drink coke and you'll here conversations like:

"Hey get me a coke."

"What kind?"

"Mmm, How about a Dr. Pepper."

And the requester did not change his mind

I work around this one by never having my characters drink carbonated liquids. Nasty habit anyway, and something with vodka in it usually (clearly, not always) signals over-18 in the states. It's generally supposed to signal over-21, but if you know anyone in college you know that law's just a poorly told joke.

The trademark owners hate stuff like your use of 'coke', because the more generic a term becomes, they less they can claim value from the trademark. It's the same with xerox for copy and kleenex for tissue.

It's even funnier when it happens across a language barrier. Among the poor in Haiti, an electric generator is called a delco, because virtually all generators there are brought in from the US or Mexico and it's often whatever cheap crap aid groups bring down and leave behind - delco parts are commonly used.

 

[sr71plt]

The trademark owners hate stuff like your use of 'coke', because the more generic a term becomes, they less they can claim value from the trademark. It's the same with xerox for copy and kleenex for tissue.

Assuming they really dislike it more than they like benefiting from the advertising, they can't do anything about it other than point out that the brand names aren't provided as trademarked (they haven't been capitalized). Overuse has no effect on trademark protection. You can use trademarked names in your stories; you just have to render then as trademarked. (And, no, you don't include the trademark sign [Chicago Manual of Style, 8.152].)

 

[Bramblethorn]

I just remembered another one: characters named "Randy".

Assuming they really dislike it more than they like benefiting from the advertising, they can't do anything about it other than point out that the brand names aren't provided as trademarked (they haven't been capitalized). Overuse has no effect on trademark protection.

Overuse per se, no. But overuse that treats a brand name as a generic term most certainly can kill a trademark. "Aspirin", "Cellophane", "Dry ice", "Escalator", and "Heroin", among others, all lost their protected status in some places because too many people were using them as a generic term for all products of that type. (I doubt Bayer is too sorry about losing "heroin", though.)

Trademark owners don't necessarily have to take legal action against people who use their trademarks generically, but it's prudent for them to assert ownership one way or another and distinguish the brand from the product - e.g. Xerox spent a lot of money on ads to tell people that you don't "xerox a document", but you can copy it on a Xerox-brand copier.

http://www.lgtrademark.com/wp-conte...venting_Trademarks_from_Becoming__Generic.pdf

 

[sr71plt]

I agree with you that those names aren't now in Trademark. I cited the writing authority on how trademarked names can legally be used in writing, though. I wasn't just giving my opinion. Feel free to check my citation.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I agree with you that those names aren't now in Trademark. I cited the writing authority on how trademarked names can legally be used in writing, though. I wasn't just giving my opinion. Feel free to check my citation.

I think we're talking at cross purposes here. You seem to be talking about rules for making reference specifically to the subject of the trademark, e.g. "Coke" meaning the particular brand of fizzy sugar-water that's sold by the Coca-Cola company.

Hands and I were talking about the use of trademarked names as generic terms for similar products e.g. "coke" for a Dr. Pepper or Pepsi, "xerox" as synonym for "photocopying", etc. etc. That generic use, if left unchallenged, certainly can erode a trademark.

n.b. "challenge" doesn't necessarily mean "sue".