When needs and values clash

[rinka]

Six months ago I would never even have considered going in to a relationship that wasn't constantly striving for equality. Now I have recognized the need in me to submit, and unfortunately I'm heterosexual, so I want to submit to a man. Problem is this need clashes with a lot of my values and life decisions as a pretty radical feminist. It does change my identity.

My main issue is how M-dom/ f-sub relations reproduce classical gender roles and the gender power order that I've tried so hard for years to challenge. I also have a son whom I have made great efforts to raise feministically. I worry about being in a dynamic that sends mixed signals to him.

I have been thinking a lot about this for months. I have read the threads I could find in the Library and through searching. I've found a lot of discussion about how feminism is about choice, and if one chooses a certain lifestyle that must be acceptable. No arguments from me there. I have however not found as much about more personal experiences with reconciling being a feminist and submitting to a man.

So I would appreciate reflections, advice, experiences and discussion to help me move on in my thought process and emotional struggle.

 

[brigid_fitch]

Rinka, I'm a relative newbie to the BDSM world, but I do understand where you're coming from. In RL, I am a manager at a Fortune 100 company and am responsible for a large part of its business. I am the breadwinner at home and make almost all of the financial decisions. I am fiercely independent and definitely consider myself a feminist.

However, I also recognize that I enjoy being a submissive. The idea of being a Domme does not interest me in the slightest. Being a sub is like being on vacation for me--someone else is making all of my decisions and I don't have to even think for myself. When I submit to my husband, there isn't a conflict of my values or life decisions. We both know we are simply acting on something we both enjoy.

 

[twysted73]

.

I've spoken to a woman who had this very struggle.

So I asked her this simple question:

Would you define femanism as "the unrestricted opportunity to persue and achieve her ideals and goals without unequal advantage against her"?

And she said yes. Having the weighty responsability of being an agressive, alpha type at her job on a daily basis....she found it hard to accept herself as she was, indulging in what she wanted so deeply.
And that was to submit..to surrender her control to a capable and loving Dominant.

And so i then told her..."Then wouldn't a woman making a choice for herself and her happiness also fall under femanism's definitions?"
And she also agreed to this.

Then I told her: Why..then it doesn't matter what she does so long as she has the freedom to make and follow that choice. Regardless of what form it may take."

Oddly enough..as most don't seem to realize these days, Femanism...has hijacked femanism.
It's gone from freedom to choose and to act and it's been labled and changed into an overly agressive, over-blown version of what once was only a very small part of it's own definition.

Don't cowtow to a stereotype. Be yourself. Do what makes YOU happy.
Otherwise....you're living for anyone else BUT you.

 

[rinka]

Rinka, I'm a relative newbie to the BDSM world, but I do understand where you're coming from. In RL, I am a manager at a Fortune 100 company and am responsible for a large part of its business. I am the breadwinner at home and make almost all of the financial decisions. I am fiercely independent and definitely consider myself a feminist.

However, I also recognize that I enjoy being a submissive. The idea of being a Domme does not interest me in the slightest. Being a sub is like being on vacation for me--someone else is making all of my decisions and I don't have to even think for myself. When I submit to my husband, there isn't a conflict of my values or life decisions. We both know we are simply acting on something we both enjoy.

I can absolutely see how submission can be liberating for me as well. I have in the past always been attracted to relatively dominant men, reluctantly. It has resulted in some resistance and struggle. Admitting that this is who I am and accepting that I want to be with a dominant man gives me a much better ground for a new relationship. Allowing myself to be.

I also believe that the personal is political. And that in order to change society I have to start in my own life. Because of that I am active in women's organizations, I demonstrate and take part in political activities, I raise issues about gender roles at my son's school and other places...

My problem isn't not allowing myself to enjoy submitting, but how it might affect my identity and the role model I want to be.

 

[FunwithRyleigh]

I, too, am new to these ideas and in the past would have NEVER thought the idea of my hubby spanking me would be a turn on.

In fact, he and I work so hard to make our marriage one of 'equals' - that he is having a difficult time warming to the idea of some of the activities I am now finding exciting.

He spanked me for the first time about a week ago... and I was in heaven. Later, when we talked about it, I found out that it was very difficult for him to do it. He felt wrong. He didn't see it as honoring me and our relationship. However, knowing that I really did want it, he forced himself.

I don't know if he will ever understand how much I appreciate him at least trying it. He has agreed to be open to it in the future as well, but it is not anything that excites him. Rather, almost has the opposite effect. Knowing how difficult it was for him makes me less likely to ask for it in the future. I obviously want him enjoying our love making as much as I am.

So, this is something that can easily effect more than just the woman who grew up to be pro-ERA and trying to break past the glass ceiling. (Which I did.) My hubby, who grew up being taught to love, honor and respect women, and never strike a woman, finds my new needs to clash with his values.

I suppose others out there have faced this. There has to be a way to balance values and beliefs and sexual preferences when they seem to be at odds.

 

[twysted73]

I remember...initially striking my submissive's face.

The first time I was shocked...the second time..she was.

Knowing she enjoys it...allows one to overcome almost anything socially unacceptable.



The only lables I accept are the ones that define who I am inside.

 

[WickedEve]

Six months ago I would never even have considered going in to a relationship that wasn't constantly striving for equality. Now I have recognized the need in me to submit, and unfortunately I'm heterosexual, so I want to submit to a man. Problem is this need clashes with a lot of my values and life decisions as a pretty radical feminist. It does change my identity.

My dom is also my lover and friend. We are equal in the relationship. We take care of each other and plan to have a life together. I give up nothing by being a submissive. I'm a strong woman. I raise my children alone, take care of my own home, make my own money, pay my own bills. I'm a strong woman who submits because I want to. Submissions doesn't have to make you weak. Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

 

[rinka]

I've spoken to a woman who had this very struggle.

So I asked her this simple question:

Would you define femanism as "the unrestricted opportunity to persue and achieve her ideals and goals without unequal advantage against her"?

And she said yes. Having the weighty responsability of being an agressive, alpha type at her job on a daily basis....she found it hard to accept herself as she was, indulging in what she wanted so deeply.
And that was to submit..to surrender her control to a capable and loving Dominant.

And so i then told her..."Then wouldn't a woman making a choice for herself and her happiness also fall under femanism's definitions?"
And she also agreed to this.

Then I told her: Why..then it doesn't matter what she does so long as she has the freedom to make and follow that choice. Regardless of what form it may take."

Oddly enough..as most don't seem to realize these days, Femanism...has hijacked femanism.
It's gone from freedom to choose and to act and it's been labled and changed into an overly agressive, over-blown version of what once was only a very small part of it's own definition.

Don't cowtow to a stereotype. Be yourself. Do what makes YOU happy.
Otherwise....you're living for anyone else BUT you.

I am so not an aggressive alpha type and I've never tried to be.

As I said in my opening post I completely agree that I have the freedom to choose. And sexual freedom is and has been a central issue in feminism.

However I don't agree with your description of current feminism. I think the focus needs to be on who has what choices. And how can we widen the choices both men and women have, globally. Our biological sex and cultural context form and limit the choices we can and are expected to make.

 

[Not Normal]

I don't live the life but I do have an interest in it. I believe being submissive is actually a sign of strength. It says you can handle what is 'given' to you and that you can make a very difficult decision to take the position you desire.

You could also make this a private activity, only for you and your dom to know about, not a 27/7 situation. Then your public life and continue as well as you seemingly very positive upbringing of you son.

 

[twysted73]

I am so not an aggressive alpha type and I've never tried to be.

never implied you were. Only to give you a more extreme example of your current plight. Hoping to show you that if one who is more so and can still enjoy...perhaps you can too.

Our biological sex and cultural context form and limit the choices we can and are expected to make.

My response..."Only if we let them." And in our bedrooms? I find it an insult to human expression and self-definition to allow something as indifferent, uncaring and superficial as society to dictate what I do in my bed.

 

[rinka]

So, this is something that can easily effect more than just the woman who grew up to be pro-ERA and trying to break past the glass ceiling. (Which I did.) My hubby, who grew up being taught to love, honor and respect women, and never strike a woman, finds my new needs to clash with his values.

I suppose others out there have faced this. There has to be a way to balance values and beliefs and sexual preferences when they seem to be at odds.

Thankyou for sharing this perspective. It is hard to go against deep rooted values.

 

[intothewoods]

I am so not an aggressive alpha type and I've never tried to be.

As I said in my opening post I completely agree that I have the freedom to choose. And sexual freedom is and has been a central issue in feminism.

However I don't agree with your description of current feminism. I think the focus needs to be on who has what choices. And how can we widen the choices both men and women have, globally. Our biological sex and cultural context form and limit the choices we can and are expected to make.

Hi rinka, I have struggled this with this myself, and am glad to know I'm not the only one! I also don't like the wholesale dismissal of feminism. I am a feminist, and there are many goals of the current feminist movement that resonate for me. Most of them, actually!

I can only share what has been my experience. I'm not a slave, but I am a submissive. However, my PYL considers me his equal. I see our relationship as a partnership. It satisfies him and it satisfies me. At the end of the day, because I do feel very much in charge of my own life and responsible for myself, I don't feel like my personal and sexual choices impact my feminism.

I also have a young child, and I personally do not and would not make overt references to D/s in front of him. I am his mother, and I am responsible for him. The D/s aspect of my relationship with my PYL is very private and intimate, and really is articulated in the moments we are together. It may sound sort of artificial to say, this is family time, and this is D/s time, but we seem to ease in and out of these moments very naturally.

 

[rinka]

My dom is also my lover and friend. We are equal in the relationship. We take care of each other and plan to have a life together. I give up nothing by being a submissive. I'm a strong woman. I raise my children alone, take care of my own home, make my own money, pay my own bills. I'm a strong woman who submits because I want to. Submissions doesn't have to make you weak. Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

I'm thinking a lot of my worries are not an issue as long as you don't live together. I am also by now over any concerns I might have had about submitting sexually. What goes on in the bedroom, privately is completely up to consenting adults and really noone else's business.

But where does the line between the sexual part and the other-life part go?

 

[rinka]

I don't live the life but I do have an interest in it. I believe being submissive is actually a sign of strength. It says you can handle what is 'given' to you and that you can make a very difficult decision to take the position you desire.

You could also make this a private activity, only for you and your dom to know about, not a 27/7 situation. Then your public life and continue as well as you seemingly very positive upbringing of you son.

I agree that submitting takes both strength and courage.

As I mentioned above I see how it can be private, but I find it interesting to think about taking it further. Also if living with young children there is only so much privacy.

 

[brigid_fitch]

I'm thinking a lot of my worries are not an issue as long as you don't live together.

I'm not sure what you mean here. The relationship is based on emotion, trust, and understanding--it's not defined by geography or any living arrangement.

I am also by now over any concerns I might have had about submitting sexually. What goes on in the bedroom, privately is completely up to consenting adults and really noone else's business.

You won't find any argument to the contrary on Lit!

But where does the line between the sexual part and the other-life part go?

The easy answer is that the line goes wherever you want it to. For my husband and I, the D/s relationship only leaves the bedroom on very rare occasions. And even then it's been discussed at length what we'll be doing and what we want to get out of it.

But in my case, the line is very rigid because we both view D/s as another form of role-play. Perhaps that particular mind-set would help assuage the fears of identity conflict that you're concerned about. If you're simply playing a role, then you're not giving up anything you believe in.

 

[JMohegan]

Six months ago I would never even have considered going in to a relationship that wasn't constantly striving for equality. Now I have recognized the need in me to submit, and unfortunately I'm heterosexual, so I want to submit to a man. Problem is this need clashes with a lot of my values and life decisions as a pretty radical feminist. It does change my identity.

My main issue is how M-dom/ f-sub relations reproduce classical gender roles and the gender power order that I've tried so hard for years to challenge. I also have a son whom I have made great efforts to raise feministically. I worry about being in a dynamic that sends mixed signals to him.

I have been thinking a lot about this for months. I have read the threads I could find in the Library and through searching. I've found a lot of discussion about how feminism is about choice, and if one chooses a certain lifestyle that must be acceptable. No arguments from me there. I have however not found as much about more personal experiences with reconciling being a feminist and submitting to a man.

So I would appreciate reflections, advice, experiences and discussion to help me move on in my thought process and emotional struggle.

Implicit in your struggle over this issue is the idea that a follower is somehow lesser than a leader. Lesser in terms of importance or value or prestige.

As a life-long Dominant male, I reject the idea that a follower is lesser than a leader in any way. I further reject the implicit assumption that Dominant females (or males), or mainstream females (or males), are more worthy of respect than the women whom I have been honored to call my partners.

The point of this post is not to criticize you for your inner conflict. I am simply offering an alternative point of view.

 

[rinka]

never implied you were. Only to give you a more extreme example of your current plight. Hoping to show you that if one who is more so and can still enjoy...perhaps you can too.

I know you didn't. I just saw myself being described like that and started laughing. Sorry, private sense of irony.

My response..."Only if we let them." And in our bedrooms? I find it an insult to human expression and self-definition to allow something as indifferent, uncaring and superficial as society to dictate what I do in my bed.

Not at all only if we let them. Take the very popular example of staying at home with your children. As a mother you are expected to make a choice in that issue, as a father you can but you're usually not expected to. This is changing here in Sweden, but it is not easy.

And society might not dictate what you do in your bed, but it sure comes with a lot of suggestions.

 

[rinka]

Hi rinka, I have struggled this with this myself, and am glad to know I'm not the only one! I also don't like the wholesale dismissal of feminism. I am a feminist, and there are many goals of the current feminist movement that resonate for me. Most of them, actually!

I can only share what has been my experience. I'm not a slave, but I am a submissive. However, my PYL considers me his equal. I see our relationship as a partnership. It satisfies him and it satisfies me. At the end of the day, because I do feel very much in charge of my own life and responsible for myself, I don't feel like my personal and sexual choices impact my feminism.

I also have a young child, and I personally do not and would not make overt references to D/s in front of him. I am his mother, and I am responsible for him. The D/s aspect of my relationship with my PYL is very private and intimate, and really is articulated in the moments we are together. It may sound sort of artificial to say, this is family time, and this is D/s time, but we seem to ease in and out of these moments very naturally.

This is very encouraging!
I do want to believe that I can have it all. An equal relationship but still submit.

Do you live together? Will you?

Do you think the dynamic between you two is completely hidden from your son?

 

[CutieMouse]

Implicit in your struggle over this issue is the idea that a follower is somehow lesser than a leader. Lesser in terms of importance or value or prestige.

As a life-long Dominant male, I reject the idea that a follower is lesser than a leader in any way. I further reject the implicit assumption that Dominant females (or males), or mainstream females (or males), are more worthy of respect than the women whom I have been honored to call my partners.

The point of this post is not to criticize you for your inner conflict. I am simply offering an alternative point of view.

Bingo.

Not to be rude, but anyone who thought/thinks my lifestyle clashes with "feminism" is functioning on a very superficial [feminist] level.

 

[rinka]

I'm not sure what you mean here. The relationship is based on emotion, trust, and understanding--it's not defined by geography or any living arrangement.

I mostly meant in reference to children, I think it matters if you live together. Now I raise my kid alone.

The easy answer is that the line goes wherever you want it to. For my husband and I, the D/s relationship only leaves the bedroom on very rare occasions. And even then it's been discussed at length what we'll be doing and what we want to get out of it.

But in my case, the line is very rigid because we both view D/s as another form of role-play. Perhaps that particular mind-set would help assuage the fears of identity conflict that you're concerned about. If you're simply playing a role, then you're not giving up anything you believe in.

Yes, I can see how seeing it as role-play and keeping it to the bedroom simplifies things a lot.

 

[rinka]

Implicit in your struggle over this issue is the idea that a follower is somehow lesser than a leader. Lesser in terms of importance or value or prestige.

As a life-long Dominant male, I reject the idea that a follower is lesser than a leader in any way. I further reject the implicit assumption that Dominant females (or males), or mainstream females (or males), are more worthy of respect than the women whom I have been honored to call my partners.

The point of this post is not to criticize you for your inner conflict. I am simply offering an alternative point of view.

Interesting, but the thought of a follower being lesser than a leader never crossed my mind. I don't have an issue with D/s as a concept. I have an issue with being a woman submitting to a man and how that reflects the gender power order of our world.

I certainly don't think that it is better to dominate than to submit, but I think that men generally have way to much power.

 

[CutieMouse]

Interesting, but the thought of a follower being lesser than a leader never crossed my mind. I don't have an issue with D/s as a concept. I have an issue with being a woman submitting to a man and how that reflects the gender power order of our world.

I certainly don't think that it is better to dominate than to submit, but I think that men generally have way to much power.

And in holding that belief, you contribute to the idea that one person is lesser than another, simply because of their gender.

 

[rinka]

Bingo.

Not to be rude, but anyone who thought/thinks my lifestyle clashes with "feminism" is functioning on a very superficial [feminist] level.

I have absolutely not said or thought that anyone's lifestyle clashes with feminism.

I've tried to emphasize that I have conflicting thoughts and feelings in a process I am going through.

 

[rinka]

And in holding that belief, you contribute to the idea that one person is lesser than another, simply because of their gender.

Quite the contrary, actually. Because I believe that men and women are more alike than different, and of equal value, I find it unacceptable that one gender has so many advantages over the other.

 

[CutieMouse]

I have absolutely not said or thought that anyone's lifestyle clashes with feminism.

I've tried to emphasize that I have conflicting thoughts and feelings in a process I am going through.

I understand that, but (IMO) part of processing the clash between feminism and D/s, is understanding that your decision to submit to a man:

A) pretty much has nothing to do with the fact that male CEOs make more than female CEOs (or pick whatever power issue fits better)
B) doesn't send negative messages to children
C) isn't in conflict with feminist ideals