When good guys aren't "good"

[Keroin]

I've been noticing a trend lately. The days of the traditional white hat hero seem to be over. The best and most popular stories these days seem to be populated by anti-heroes and dark protagonists. Serial killers, mob bosses, vampires, corrupt cops, drug dealers, unfaithful ad executives, you name it, our "heroes" seem more like likable villains.

Why? What is it about this point in history that we have become so accepting of the anti-hero? Are we simply cynical now? Have we ceased to believe in real "good guys"?

And who are the anti-heroes or dark protagonists that you love/hate to watch or read about in fiction?

 

[Mz_Cunningham]

The 'anti-hero' is more fun than the all around good guy. The person with their own troubles and issues is a lot more relatable than the white knight on his shining steed.

We might not be in full favour for the anti-hero, it could just be that it's a lot better to feel superior to them. You can walk out of the cinema saying, well I would have acted better than them.

So for kicks, who has the most fun, as Lilac and I say, if hell does exist, that's where all the fun people will be. Or to just feel better about how good we are.

 

[KikiRose]

I think that Mz_Cunningham has good points. It's not always fun or easy to identify with somebody who makes all the "good" choices. There is also a nice sense of danger in cheering for the anti-hero, whereas cheering for the "good guy" can be boring.

 

[DVS]

Damn! I knew I had to be doing it all wrong when I saw all of my evil friends reaping the good life. But my mother taught me to always be the nice guy. DAMN, DAMN, DAMN, DAMN!

 

[Keroin]

The 'anti-hero' is more fun than the all around good guy. The person with their own troubles and issues is a lot more relatable than the white knight on his shining steed.

I think this is definitely a part of it. A deeply flawed hero definitely seems more "real" to me.

We might not be in full favour for the anti-hero, it could just be that it's a lot better to feel superior to them. You can walk out of the cinema saying, well I would have acted better than them.

Interesting. So, there's a kind of satisfaction to having a hero who isn't better than us. Perhaps we've gone from wanting someone to look up to, to wanting someone we can look down on? Maybe it's no longer enough to live vicariously through the likes of Bruce Willis "Die Hard" type heroes? Maybe need to feel that we're the good guys and those people on the screen are the ones who should idolize us?

There is also a nice sense of danger in cheering for the anti-hero, whereas cheering for the "good guy" can be boring.

Do you think there's also a guilty pleasure in it too? I mean, I've started watching "Breaking Bad" and when I catch myself cheering for the protagonist there's also that little voice in the back of my head that reminds me this character is making/dealing crystal meth and that I should want him to fail. And yet I don't.

And it's kind of weirdly enjoyable. Like eating pizza for breakfast.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

Mmmmm.... New Meth-Lovers Pizza for breakfast.

Complicated heroes are more interesting. I think that's why Marvel comics became so popular in the 60s: the heroes had issues. And Batman became interesting to people again when it was clear he had a serious dark side.

It's a staple of popular culture, but seems to cycle: Jean Valjean in Les Mis., or Robin Hood. Clint Eastwood's spaghetti westerns are in stark (and dark) contrast to the white hat heroes of the 40s and 50s serials. Death Wish. Blade Runner's Deckard.

There's this appeal that, hey, we live in a world that is often unjust: I wanna see someone fight it on its own terms once in a while!

I think you're right, that it seems to be more the norm now, than the exception. It's an interesting observation. I wonder what that says about the times in which we're living???

 

[Keroin]

I think you're right, that it seems to be more the norm now, than the exception. It's an interesting observation. I wonder what that says about the times in which we're living???

To me, this is the most interesting question of all.

 

[HeyAll]

Because it's more realistic and it gives more layers to the character.

Personally, I don't mind seeing a traditional hero or an anti-hero. A good character is a good character. But if the main character is "Too good", then it can be boring. There's no such thing as an anti-hero who's too much one way or the other.

And it's a sign of the times that people want realism and what not. No one wants boring characters.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

To me, this is the most interesting question of all.

This is a short piece from a college paper about the major surge of dystopian fiction in literature for young adults, but it could just as easily apply to adult stuff, and the popularity of antiheros and dystopian movies, books and games for adults bears witness.

The last seven paragraphs, in particular I think, apply to the rise of antiheroes as well as the general angst reflected in popular culture.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

....kind of weirdly enjoyable. Like eating pizza for breakfast.

What's weird about pizza for breakfast?

 

[ArchLady03]

What's weird about pizza for breakfast?

It's only weird if you reheat it. There is nothing abnormal about eating cold pizza for breakfast

 

[Keroin]

And it's a sign of the times that people want realism and what not. No one wants boring characters.

Well, I'll buy that it's more realistic, but boring? I don't think many people walked out of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" bored. And Indiana Jones, for whatever minor flaws he had, was certainly a traditional good guy.

This is a short piece from a college paper about the major surge of dystopian fiction in literature for young adults, but it could just as easily apply to adult stuff, and the popularity of antiheros and dystopian movies, books and games for adults bears witness.

The last seven paragraphs, in particular I think, apply to the rise of antiheroes as well as the general angst reflected in popular culture.

"Emotional chaos", that strikes a chord. I get a sense that this is very much a part of our world.

What fascinates me about anti-heroes is that they still have to "hook" the viewer/reader somehow. They must display some heroic qualities. Those qualities could be limited to a very small sub-culture, their family, co-workers, etc, but they must be present or we won't identify with them. So, if the anti-hero is a biker and is absolutely loyal to his gang, demonstrating heroic behaviour within the confines of the gang, we become tolerant of his behaviour outside of the gang. Yet, in real life, we would likely not feel so forgiving or tolerant and most of us would not be cheering for such characters.

And, yes, dystopian fiction is also very much in the mainstream now, particularly in YA fiction.

Also, I love "The Hunger Games".

 

[Mz_Cunningham]

Interesting. So, there's a kind of satisfaction to having a hero who isn't better than us. Perhaps we've gone from wanting someone to look up to, to wanting someone we can look down on? Maybe it's no longer enough to live vicariously through the likes of Bruce Willis "Die Hard" type heroes? Maybe need to feel that we're the good guys and those people on the screen are the ones who should idolize us?

Self entitlement, we are the heroes now, so yeah it's possible we're just looking for people to look down on now.

But even John McClane was an anti-hero, a guy who has a crap life, who isn't polite or nice.

I wouldn't say it's recent that we've enjoyed the anti-hero it may be more prominent now, or maybe people are just more open about who they prefer now.

 

[DVS]

 

[Keroin]

But even John McClane was an anti-hero, a guy who has a crap life, who isn't polite or nice.

Well, I would argue that, although the character may not have been nice or polite, John McClane wasn't technically an anti-hero. Rough around the edges, sure, but he was a cop and he only broke the rules for the greater good. His methods may have been questionable to those in authority, but his motives were pure.

A character such as Dexter, by contrast, is motivated largely by survival and his own desires. His "code" is only a means by which he can live with himself - and he also breaks his code (the only ethical standards he has) more than once. He's on the police force, yes, but he's also a murderer, and well aware of the fact.

An anti-hero may do good things, but not always (sometimes never) for good reasons. A hero can be a jerk but when he does good things he does so for ethical reasons. In fact, many anti-heroes present themselves publicly as nice, polite good guys, which makes them even more deliciously bad!

 

[BiBunny]

I like Byronic heroes. I'm not going to lie. (Mmm, Mr. Rochester....) They date back about 200 years or so, so I wouldn't say they're reflections on our society at this point in time.

On the other hand, I really, really, really hate all those movies about slackers. Ok, this kid doesn't have a job, is lazy, lives with his parents, and, most of all, is proud of his own laziness and really does absolutely nothing throughout the entire movie because everything just lands in his lap, and I'm supposed to relate to this and feel sympathy for it? Ew, no.

Not quite what you were talking about, I know, but close enough that I felt like I could rant against Michael Cera movies for a moment.

 

[Keroin]

Not quite what you were talking about, I know, but close enough that I felt like I could rant against Michael Cera movies for a moment.

HA! *snort*

 

[krissive69]

just to put another spin on the question, i think this is the fallout of post-modernism, which says that there are no heros... everyone has an agenda, and the agenda is flawed by design. its the same reason that reality shows are so much more prevalent... and we know there are no heros there!

 

[Keroin]

its the same reason that reality shows are so much more prevalent... and we know there are no heros there!

Nah, I'll disagree with that.

Reality TV shows are prevalent because they are CHEAP to make and people are easily fooled into thinking that what they're watching is "real".

But bottom line? $$$

 

[curvacious]

It's only weird if you reheat it. There is nothing abnormal about eating cold pizza for breakfast

Fine, I admit I'm weird and to top it off, I like what I call "naked pizza" where I eat the toppings then the dough.

One of my favorite characters is House. While I love him I hate drug addicted selfishness.

I still like to cheer for the underdog good guy though.

 

[YourCaptor]

A lot of heros are still good guys, they just have, explosive methods. You know, like die hard, or liam neeson.

But then you get bad baddies, and I'm thinking one quality is needed for them to be a hero. They have to recognize that they are bad. So really within the character you have a classic good vs bad struggle going on.

 

[intothewoods]

I like Byronic heroes. I'm not going to lie. (Mmm, Mr. Rochester....) They date back about 200 years or so, so I wouldn't say they're reflections on our society at this point in time.

On the other hand, I really, really, really hate all those movies about slackers. Ok, this kid doesn't have a job, is lazy, lives with his parents, and, most of all, is proud of his own laziness and really does absolutely nothing throughout the entire movie because everything just lands in his lap, and I'm supposed to relate to this and feel sympathy for it? Ew, no.

Not quite what you were talking about, I know, but close enough that I felt like I could rant against Michael Cera movies for a moment.

Yes, thank you for mentioning Michael Cera. I was thinking about the cuteness that oozes from Zooey Deschanel in her new sitcom and wondering if there was a male equivalent. Michael Cera. Probably more - I'm kinda tired at the moment.

That sort of indie sweet thing is really annoying to me.

I agree anti-heroes are nothing new in fiction, but I think there has been something of a shift in popular culture and I credit post-modernism, Watergate, counterculture movements and Seinfeld, not necessarily in that order. Ok, kind of kidding about Seinfeld.