What's up with all the incest?

[karmadog]

It seems like incest is one of the most popular categories. I don't get that.

I have to admit, I'm not all that kinky--I started "120 Days of Sodom" and quit disgusted in the middle of day 4. I didn't even want to know what was going to happen in the other 116.

So what's going on? Has Jerry Springer had that many guests?

Joking aside, can someone explain the appeal of incest as subject matter.

 

[Guest]

tension. erotic tension. incest supplies it instantly, but a "normal" story takes longer to build it. Incest is easier to write. simple.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Taboo. Forbidden. Untouchable. Out of reach. You can't have it. Illicit. Prohibited. Obscene. Sacrosanct.

Pick your word. They all apply to Incest. The also all apply to highly desirable sexual fantasy.

 

[peterpan]

What about "Ick, your sister!"

 

[Beethoven'sFire]

I only like incestuous stories that involve real emotion, other than people in heat. Love through social taboo gets me off somehow.

 

[abashed-dreamer]

Virtually all of the top 100 stories, according to 'reads' or views are incest. I've had a story there for a while: more than 100,000 reads. Not a lot of feedback, but usually pretty unsophisticated,
"That really made me cum." The responders sound like young males, mostly.

Karmadog, have you ever considered that Freud may be right? that every male goes through a period, as a child, of erotically desiring his mother?

Now, you say "I don't feel it. I wouldn't." Well, maybe the desire is so forbidden you can't allow yourself to feel it? Have you ever dreamed it?

Killer Muffin is right. The stories cross a pretty deep line, into a
'prohibited' area.

 

[peterpan]

Taboo. Forbidden. Untouchable. Out of reach. You can't have it. Illicit. Prohibited. Obscene. Sacrosanct.

Seriously though, Killermuffin, with the exception of Sacrosanct (which I don't know the relevant meaning of: holy?) these words also apply to anything which is just plain yucky, eg chopping people up.

Oh wait, people seem to love reading about that too

What is something you think just plain yucky, and how would you avoid your argument justifying it?

 

[Beethoven'sFire]

People just like different things.

 

[KillerMuffin]

sacrosanct also means immune from violation, theoretically family ties are immune from violation.

Yes, the rest also apply to things like stealing, killing, littering, and not doing homework.

But, the "illicit" is a very common modifier of "thrill." Even outside of sex.

Stories require conflict. That's the whole basis of plot. There's a problem and the characters have to resolve it. Incest has a built in conflict that gives the particular illicitness of being forbidden.

Forbidden has sexual appeal to a lot of people.

 

[karmadog]

still not for me

KM you're probably right about the taboo aspect. I think that a lot of sexual acts become "faddish" because of their shock value. In the fifties was the blowjob and spanking/bondage. Later, anal sex and S/M. I remember when I was in college many, many girls were LUGs (lesbian until graduation), although few were able to maintain that. Perhaps incest is like that. The major difference is that there are very good reasons for a cultural taboo on incest, so I hope that actual incest does not become a fad.

Abashed Dreamer I have to say that Freud might be right about that whole Oedipus complex thing, but he made an argument that was impossible to disprove. If you admit to the impulses, the Oedipus Complex is true. If you deny it, then you are repressing the memories and the OC is true. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I think Freud was hedging his bets.

 

[CRaZy]

Not for me either

Not for me either karmadog. I can't write it - not true incest. I've see too many children with their lives destroyed by abuse. I once lived in an area that had the highest rate of incest cases per capita in the state. It's devastating when it is real and in your face.

I accept that everyone is free to have their own fantasies and don't judge anyone else on their tastes. Earlier research seemed to show that porn users on the internet had a very good grip on the difference between reality and fantasy. There is some recent disturbing evidence that the amount of exposure to porn on the internet has made people less able to delineate social taboos. There are studies and more studies and lies, damn lies and statistics. It does make me a little uncomfortable though.

 

[abashed-dreamer]

To Karma Dog.

Yes, Freud did 'hedge' a bit, though I did mention the appeal to dreams as evidence.

The appeal of incest may be from the impulse to it. Here is evidence of the strength of that impulse. The near universality of some kinds of incest prohibitions. If something had no appeal, there would be no prohibitions. Most societies do not prohibit the eating of dirt, for instance. Few are so inclined. But they do prohibit robbery, which occurs all the time.

BTW, could you state the 'very good cultural reasons' for forbidding incest? Assume birth control is used, and that both are consenting adults.


Peterpan.
You asked about KM's argument that the prohibited nature of incest give it appeal. You said the argument would apply to 'yukky' things. Yes, indeed. Wherever people are so inclined. Dice and slice, your example, sure is appealing to some, as in the novel American Psycho.

It's prohibited to kill someone for a lark, or experiment, or thrill. And that's the plot of Crime and Punishment, the famous novel.

As KM suggests, these sorts of things add spice and appeal. A story about Mrs X planting some radishes would presumably have less appeal.

 

[peterpan]

You asked about KM's argument that the prohibited nature of incest give it appeal. You said the argument would apply to 'yukky' things. Yes, indeed. Wherever people are so inclined. Dice and slice, your example, sure is appealing to some, as in the novel American Psycho.

It's prohibited to kill someone for a lark, or experiment, or thrill. And that's the plot of Crime and Punishment, the famous novel.

As KM suggests, these sorts of things add spice and appeal. A story about Mrs X planting some radishes would presumably have less appeal.

Henceforth, the planting of radishes is declared taboo.

You have merely explained one half of what I had said back to me. If being taboo was all the explanation, then you should like all other disallowed things. I hope most people find most disallowed things horrific, because moral relativisim aside, they are mostly horrible.

So to say incest is fantastically popular as a fantasy simply because it is not allowed is not remotely sufficient.

Why pretend you can answer this question without even getting into the grit of what we are talking about? Are we talking about brother and sister? lesbian sisters or homosexual brothers? are we talking of two imaginary people or yourself and a real sibling or are we talking about a middle aged guy and a very young girl whom by the very nature of the relationship has no home and no place to go, no money and infact no life skills but that which he has allowed her to accumulate? Are these things not also factors deserving of consideration?

 

[abashed-dreamer]

Henceforth, the planting of radishes is declared taboo.

You have merely explained one half of what I had said back to me. If being taboo was all the explanation, then you should like all other disallowed things. I hope most people find most disallowed things horrific, because moral relativisim aside, they are mostly horrible.

[COMMENT: This seems to betray a basic confusion. The question was why certain FANTASIES (as in stories) have appeal. We are not talking about (liking of) actual events; of course people 'find most disallowed things horrific'--TO DO; example, murder. Yet they pack theaters to engage in imagining and fantasizing about it.]


So to say incest is fantastically popular as a fantasy simply because it is not allowed is not remotely sufficient.

[COMMENT: mea culpa]

Why pretend you can answer this question

[COMMENT: I don't see the pretense, my friend. Perhaps the rhetoric could be toned down, if you want to discuss things.]

without even getting into the grit of what we are talking about? Are we talking about brother and sister? lesbian sisters or homosexual brothers? are we talking of two imaginary people or yourself and a real sibling or are we talking about a middle aged guy and a very young girl whom by the very nature of the relationship has no home and no place to go, no money and infact no life skills but that which he has allowed her to accumulate? Are these things not also factors deserving of
consideration?

[END QUOTE]

COMMENT: Matters of definition and scope are certainly important. You did not address them in your original post, nor did I.

But I see the same confusion. Adult vs. child as victims of crime, is mainly an issue for the ACTUAL act, and child victimization esp. revolts us. It's terrible to exploit a 'very young girl' esp. with 'no home.' It's terrible also to put arsenic in your spouse's coffee, or put a bullet in his/her head.

That is not the issue (as I see it). FANTASIES about any of these things though, are fair game for story plots, and their are numerous examples of classic spouse murder tales--OTHELLO--which endlessly fascinate us, though we shrink from actually doing it. For the 'young girl', though with a home, see LOLITA, which is generally respected as a piece of quality fiction.

 

[karmadog]

valid reasons for taboos on incest

AD--you did mention dreams as evidence. I do not recall dreaming about incest, but if I did, what is that evidence of? The first question is: What are the purpose of dreams? Are they reflections of things we wish to do, but cannot or have not? Are they simple garbage dumping, the throwing away of unused thoughts? Are they examples of the strengthening of neural pathways to enhance learning? Or are they simply meaningless? Or some combination of these? No one has satisfactorily answered these questions. So dreams cannot be used as evidence of anything.

As to why incest has valid prohibitions. First, I cannot assume that the participants are consenting adults or using birth control, because neither one of those are the norm in incest cases. Leaving aside the obvious genetic issues, there is the very important issue of a refuge. Whether we are speaking of adults or children, family is an important refuge that should not be destroyed, nor should it be allowed to be destroyed. A child should be safe to discover their sexuality with their family as a "safe haven" to give advice and aid in their efforts to discover and forge relationships. If that haven is no longer their, with jealousies and family members taking sides with incestuous partners, the victim of incest will have a difficult time creating a decent relationship. In a child the damage is even greater.

Birth control? Never 100%. I'm sure you know that.

In another post you mentioned that the near universality of the incest taboo as evidence of the near universality of the impulse. Actually, I think that the near universality of the taboo is evidence of the instinctual nature of the revulsion that it causes and of the universal recognition that there are aberrations in human nature and society.

None of this means that I think that people should not fantasize about it, just that I don't think they should act on it. I myself will not read stories about it either. I'm with CRaZy. When reality is too horrific, it will, and perhaps should, intrude.

 

[peterpan]

Sorry, that was unfair and a bit agro

[COMMENT: I don't see the pretense, my friend. Perhaps the rhetoric could be toned down, if you want to discuss things.]

re-reading the thread, I find my comments to be unfair to apply to a single person. I became annoyed because I felt proponents kept giving me the same answer because that answer agreed with them rather than vice versa, ignoring the question I was actually asking. I did not wish to widen the scope myself, because I wished to hear proponents views without prompting or giving suggestions.

Anyway, since I have now done that, and also stepped away from the actual question to do a bit of moralising, I don't think this thread will be likely answer the question for me to my satisfaction. Bye.

 

[Guest]

Societal barometer

I personaly like reading incest stories for the sheer 'tabooness' of the subject, occasionaly raising the societal barometer is not always such a bad thing......

 

[Natalie Nessus]

Many people it seems have attractive families

 

[poohlive]

Freud and dreams. Hah! We're bringing out all the bases when we get into this problem, aren't we? That's all right though, and certainly understandable.

Freud was mentioned, and the Oedipus complex. Does anyone know the true root of the complex though? Other than the end result is that you have a desire to have sex with your mother or father. It's actually deeper than that, psychologically and emotionally.

Think about it, what is the first real relationship that you see growing up? Your mother and father (at least, in Freudian times it was, now... it's more like your mother and her boyfriend and, every other weekend you see your father and his third wife). So, you automatically put the standards of relationships up to them. If you parents are very flirtatious and open with touching and things, then you will most likely do that as well. If they are closed about that, and although the love is there, general affection isn't, then it alos becomes a part of you.

Kinda sad huh? You learn social dating skills before you even begin to walk and talk.

It's true though. Which means that, since you know your mother better than any other female, and because you look up to her so much (again, Freud's time, not ours) you put every other female, in some respect, up to her standard.

People have often mused about how when they marry, their wife is a lot like their mother. That's true more often than you think. You may not want to actually have sex with your mother, but subconcsiously, you are at least judging women based on your mother. It's only a small step from one to the other.

As for incestual stories? Well, the examples of illicit forbidden or taboo things are true, but the things you are talking about don't really apply to sex. Well, I suppose cutting people up could jump into the extreme bondage area, but other than that, it's totally different.

You can't compare things to each other if they are different. Robbing, stealing, killing, can't be compared to sex.

What we need is Taboo sex. Well, in this day and age, things are so different when it comes to sex and boundaries. Some people think sex with the lights on is taboo, while others prefer to get whips, chains, partners, animals in on the actions as well to make it more fun.

It's all over the field basically, and incest is a part of it. The only thing I would say that comes close is older/younger couples. You know, where the guy is 19 and the woman is 54. Something like that... now that's taboo.

The same rule applies to them as does incest. Why do people like it and read it so much? Because, you've been grown up saying that it's bad. Well, you've also grown up saying that sex is bad as well. So, your mind simply puts two and two together.

If sex is bad, but it's so good, and incest is worse... then it must be even better! Interracial couples, that's a big no-no, especially if you aren't open minded, but interracial couples having sex? Oh... Taboo all the way.

Gangbang? Illicit... so it must be good. Beastality... come on now, that's just sick and disgusting!!! Write a bunch of stories on it, and watch them all flock.

Sex is put into that one part of your mind where things are bad and wrong, and if you do them, you get this wonderful rush knowing you are bad and wrong. Anyone ever pee in public? Where it was possible at any moment for someone to see you?

There's a rush, it's also into that taboo category. So... peeing in public bad, sex bad, sex in public, double bad. Don't tell me sex in public doesn't turn people on just a little bit?

You get where I'm going with this now? Ok, so it's just a theory, and technically there's no real way to prove it, without digging into someone's brain, but it does explain a lot. Unless, someone else has a better way of explaining it?

I know I sure don't. Anyway, have fun reading whatever you want to read. No judgement on this part. Anything and everything goes in the magical land of Literotica. hee hee, enjoy.

 

[CRaZy]

Don't tell me sex in public doesn't turn people on just a little bit?

[/B]

Noooo....no chance dot com. I don't want anyone to see my cellulite, especially when it's wobbling on top of someone else's. Eck. The very thought that someone might watch would definitely give Panadolboy a headache. It therefore wouldn't be a very exciting performance for a voyeur would it?

 

[jon.hayworth]

As someone who has written some incest stories - fictional accounts I wish to assure my readers - I thought it would be a good idea to set down my motivation.

1) The illicit nature of the relationship offers the writer all the opportunities to structure a decent story with setbacks and progress.
2) The universal human impulse towards this relationship.
3) I can indulge my own fantasies towards members of my own family. - No I am not telling you who or if I have ever acted on them. Like I said my stories are fictional!!!!
4) Readers enjoy them which relates to 2. A site on Yahoo polled its subscribers as to what kind of stories they wanted. Incest came out head and shoulders above the others with 46% of the votes.

Now some of my thoughts on incest.
1) Greek and Celt Mythology abounds with incest tales.
2) I would argue that it is a universal impulse because it is universally taboo. Laws are made not against what may occur, but to stop what is happening. There is no speed limit or one way system for space craft on the way to the moon. If enough countries/people were flying to the moon, and there were some collisions a treaty on flight paths would be agreed.

I also believe that since the development of 100% safe birthcontrol methods, the Incest Taboo has become invalid. The only requirement on consenting adults should be the use of a 100% method - opting for a Vasectomy or tube tying is a big step - a big commitment.

OK I have had my rant - now read my stories and let me entertain you.

lol

jon

 

[Guest]

universal impulse?

What universal impulse? Reading this thread I've seen it referred to, but no one gives evidence for it. I think most people are repulsed by it.

 

[mishap00]

Reading the replies to the original post, I am surprised that no one came up with what I would think would be logical. In any relationship that feels good is a degree of being comfortable with the other person.

Think about it the object of incest whether it is a brother, sister, mother, father or other relative, is someone that you have known a large part of your life or their life. You wouldn't have to explain yourself, be afraid of them finding out your bad habits and faults. They already know them. They also (not speaking sexually here)already love you.

Bye the way I am not speaking about a relative by marriage that is not truly incest, just cheating.

 

[KillerVanity]

Joking aside, can someone explain the appeal of incest as subject matter.

I can't really explain incest as subject matter, since for many people it's their personal fetish and fantasy, and I can't speak for them. However, having been around the Internet for a while, I can say that Literotica has a lot more categories and is open to more than other sites on the web. With that said, incest is popular here because it's not popular or accepted in many other places.

 

[karmadog]

OK

Man, I never thought this thread would receive that much interest, but I never thought incest was that popular of a fantasy. I think KillerVanity is probably right. The net allows people to explore unpopular fantasies--things they might never admit to or discuss in any other place. I had been thinking along the lines of KVs response also.

I had been thinking of something that happened in a graduate level Human Sexuality class. In the mid-80's we were discussing homosexuality (more of a hot-button topic then than it is today) and an Arab student said that homosexuality was unheard of in his country because it was punishable by death. No sooner had he said this than an African student (I cannot remember which countries these men were from) started snickering. The professor asked him what was so funny. The African said that in his country the word for "homosexual" was the same as that for "Arab". Apparently, when the constraints placed on these men were removed, they acted on the forbidden impulses with a vengeance.

I cannot attest to what either of these men said, but what happened in my class was true, so please, any Arabs or Africans, don't shoot the messenger.

I think perhaps the net is like that. It magnifies the feeling of freedom (to express forbidden impulses).