What's the reason for it . ..

[graceanne]

Dolf started a great thread in the GB, and I thought it'd be interesting to see what you all have to say.

Originally posted by dolf
what's the reason for it...

being nasty...

i'm not talking about defending yourself, others or your ideals...i'm talking about petty, unprovoked cruelty.

i'll be honest, it baffles me what motivation do people have, what pleasure do they gain? what is gained by taking a swing at someone you see as less worthy?
personally it doesn't get to me...but what does it feel like when the cruelty succeeds in wounding someone?

anyone read psychology? anyone have a theory? any nasty people care to share the secret?
what life experiences trigger this in a person? or is it genetic?

{my mother always said they are to be pitied...filling a hollow space within themselves with twisted pleasure...but i was 5 when she said it }

 

[sigsauerprinces]

they do it to make themselves feel better. sounds cliched but is actually true. if they can say something to someone about something and make them feel bad (just an example but-youre not a REAL sub because you dont do XYZ), if they succeed in making that person doubt themself-they feel like theyre better than that person.

and sometimes its that theyre in pain and they want to lash out at someone...but that doesnt make it right.

 

[catalina_francisco]

And sometimes it is just a matter of one person thinking another is being nasty when they are not intending it to be that way at all but can trigger a response in the other unintentionally, sometimes because the person thinking another is being nasty has issues they may not even realise themselves. For instance, in my teens I once commented to a co-worker how the new dress she wore to work that day lit up her face....which it did.....but she took offence and claimed I was saying she looked old and ugly most days. I actually thought she was a beautiful woman at all times, but that dress did actually add something extra. Obviously she had issues with her own appearance which until that day I had not realised.

Fortunately, I don't see nastiness on BDSM Talk, and steer clear of the GB where I have heard it is more the norm. I am sure some people just thrive on that behaviour for a variety of reasons, others are misinterpreted, and others just have a bad day which may mean their fingers type before they reflect on what the perceived message of their words may say. It is life unfortunately.

Catalina http://www.smilies4you.de/content/smileypics/a3.gif

 

[graceanne]

I personally think it's a power issue. They don't have enough power in r/l, or didn't as children, so they use their power to cause pain to others.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Perhaps, but then I am of the school of thought where one size does not fit all. What may be one person's issue is not another, and is one reason why though I can do well in psychology exams, I don't have a lot of respect for everything it says. Psych textbook theories say people will respond in A, B, or C, to a particular situation....only problem is there were a few situations they presented as theory in which IME I had not responded in any of the ways they claimed were the only possible ways anyone would......so I try to keep an open mind on why anyone does what they do until i know that particular person better.

I remember a valueable sociology lecture where the lecturer took a pose and asked people to cpnclude what they thought it meant.....aka body language......then he proceeded to blow all the psych theories out of the water with common sense plausible reasons why a person may be reacting that way. It made perfect sense and was not so limiting as the psyche theories would have us believe. He did the same with several spoken statements and with the same outcome....it is not always that easy to judge another, especially on screen.

Catalina

 

[graceanne]

True enough. There are always exceptions to every rule. I should be a smoker (and several other things_, according to all the rules, yet I have never smoked in my life. But as a rule, I think it all boils down to power. Well, if it's deliberate. Otherwise I think it's selfishness and inconsideration. And occasionally people are just a tad bit to sensitive.

 

[catalina_francisco]

True, and also there is another angle in that sometimes people provoke nastiness either intentionally or unintentionally which then raises the question of who has the issues, the person provoking, or the one responding, neither, or both...or even the bystander commenting on the proceedings but saying they don't want to be involved....and in what circumstance, and is it warranted, is it fair to say one is innocent and the other isn't, is it that simple? LOL, see my mind travels off of it's own free will sometimes and seeks to discover why something is not so easy to explain or understand.....keeps my brain working most days.

Catalinahttp://www.smilies4you.de/content/sonstige/a87.gif

 

[graceanne]

True, and also there is another angle in that sometimes people provoke nastiness either intentionally or unintentionally which then raises the question of who has the issues, the person provoking, or the one responding, neither, or both...or even the bystander commenting on the proceedings but saying they don't want to be involved....and in what circumstance, and is it warranted, is it fair to say one is innocent and the other isn't, is it that simple? LOL, see my mind travels off of it's own free will sometimes and seeks to discover why something is not so easy to explain or understand.....keeps my brain working most days.

Catalinahttp://www.smilies4you.de/content/sonstige/a87.gif

Well, depends. Sometimes a person can be too sensitive, or they are looking to be provoked. But I'm not talking about people defending themselves or their beliefs. This about people who are mean on purpose.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Well, depends. Sometimes a person can be too sensitive, or they are looking to be provoked. But I'm not talking about people defending themselves or their beliefs. This about people who are mean on purpose.

But then isn't it all subjective? Someone can be provoked without it being a case of defending themselves, or even perhaps too sensitive. And then it becomes subjective as to whether a person is being mean on purpose or not, or perhaps they are not being mean at all, just that the other person/s involved don't like what is said, or may be triggered by something said which needn't necessarily be being overly sensitive? There are so many avenues it can go down it is not an easy question to answer with a simple conclusion...sometimes it is, sometimes it is not perhaps.

Catalina http://www.smilies4you.de/content/sonstige/c89.gif

 

[Netzach]

I am not one for kicking puppies or fucking up your kids' heads, but I do have an appreciation for fairly brutal humor.

Why would someone be catty like that?

Because I can, darling.

 

[Guest]

And sometimes...Sometimes it is just the simple matter of.."Hey!, The emperor really IS Butt Ass Nekkid!!!".

And when you post things to a board full of Doms/Dommes/PYL/pyl etc etc et-frigging cetera...
Not all of the replies are going to be the round robin of patting 'em on the ass and blowing in their ears, that you have to suffer through in other places.

It IS one of the more refreshing things about this little community.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Not all of the replies are going to be the round robin of patting 'em on the ass and blowing in their ears, that you have to suffer through in other places.

It IS one of the more refreshing things about this little community.

Oh ain't it just?!!


Catalina

 

[dolf]

the question was less about constructive criticism and more about wanton cruelty and bullying...nastyness with the sole intent of causing another pain and distress{and not the good sort }

 

[sunfox]

I have to disagree that we don't see nastiness on the BDSM board.. I've seen it before, and I'm sure I'll see it again. There is no place you can go to get away from it if you're still looking to communicate with others.

And as a frequently over-critical person, of myself as well as others, I can say that when I'm nasty (and I freely admit that I am, at times, just plain mean) it is usually for one of two reasons.

1. Annoyance. Generally with what I see as willful blindness in a discussion.. refusal to admit that anyone else can have a point just because you don't agree with it.

2. Having a bad day. It's not pretty, but there you have it. I do sometimes take my mood out on someone else by lashing out at them. It doesn't make me feel better, and in fact, frequently makes me feel worse, but I still do it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I have to disagree that we don't see nastiness on the BDSM board.. I've seen it before, and I'm sure I'll see it again. There is no place you can go to get away from it if you're still looking to communicate with others.

And as a frequently over-critical person, of myself as well as others, I can say that when I'm nasty (and I freely admit that I am, at times, just plain mean) it is usually for one of two reasons.

1. Annoyance. Generally with what I see as willful blindness in a discussion.. refusal to admit that anyone else can have a point just because you don't agree with it.

2. Having a bad day. It's not pretty, but there you have it. I do sometimes take my mood out on someone else by lashing out at them. It doesn't make me feel better, and in fact, frequently makes me feel worse, but I still do it.

Because like the rest of us you are human.

Catalina

 

[sunfox]

Because like the rest of us you are human.

Catalina

Oh yes, despite my delusions of grandeur to the contrary.

A submissive with a God complex.. what a dichotomy!

It's the constant pursuit of perfection in myself and others that tends to lead to snippy comments, unfortunately... it is, of course, a fruitless pursuit, but I can't seem to prevent myself from trying.

 

[graceanne]

I was not saying that it happens here on the BDSM board, cause it rarely does, and when it does it's normally a troll, and we know to ignore it. I'm jsut talking generally. Heck, even in r/l. It does happen, people saying or doing mean things just for the fun of doing mean things. It's the person who shouts 'fatt ass' at you in the grocery story, or the chick who walks up to you, looks you up and down, then makes a face and walks away.

Usually on this board, which is why I like it here, if someone's mean it's becaues of something. You can figure out WHY they were acting that way, even if it's just a matter of a bad day or cattines. And usually if they were out of line, you'll find an apology somewhere. Even if it was in private.

 

[TaintedB]

Originally posted by dolf
the question was less about constructive criticism and more about wanton cruelty and bullying...nastyness with the sole intent of causing another pain and distress{and not the good sort }

I have a few ideas about this. One is that people do this sort of thing because relieves stress, tension, and anger that cannot safely or easily be expressed in real life. When people ask this kind of question on really mean boards, that's the most common reason that gets mentioned. Real life is getting increasingly hard and stressful for many of us. Taking this out on an easy online victim is a release for some people. It's not something I like very much, it reminds me too much of other stupid unthinking human behavior, like beating your kids and ruining their lives because you were beaten as a child. It's machine-like, unexamined behavior. And while it may be a temporary relief for the instigator, the hurt and havoc it causes (flame/blame wars that result, for instance) add even more to the overall level of stress people feel.

Being online is also like being drunk. Inhibitions are way down, not because your brain is addled by alcohol, but because there are no standard social cues from others (I mean body language and tone of voice) to moderate or inhibit one's behavior. The ability to percieve other people as real individuals with genuine feelings just like yourself is also way down online. This kind of depersonalization even happens frequently between close friends who have met each other and talked on the phone, when they go to too much to email.

I've noticed that in chat rooms where lots of people talk on an audible voice channel as well as type messages, the meanness goes way down. I think the voice tones provide the necessary cues to elicit an awareness in others that they are dealing with real human beings.

Another very big factor is the group element. People do things in groups or when they think they are being watched by people who are a part of their group that they'd never do to someone if they were alone with them, one-on-one. Being part of a group turns many of us into very different people than we are alone.

Last idea: chaos. A lot of people are chaotic these days, promoting entrophy if not downright nihilistic. I know a few people who were born chaotic and cannot help it, but these naturals are just as likely to do positive chaotic things as negative ones. The people who, as teens or adults, assume chaos as an attitude or affectation (it's an easier way to be than facing yourself honestly plus it has its own romance, and people love romance), which is most of what you see online, almost always choose the malicious form of chaotic acts, and so they are not really chaotic or random at all, although it pleases their egos to think that they are. Others are very conscious that their chaotic acts always produce unhappy results, and revel in that.

As an extreme example of the latter sort, there are members of certain satanic cults whose group and personal goals are to cause as much harm, suffering, confusion, hurt, and misplaced anger as they possibly can among as many people as they can. To pull an example from a pop novel (one of Dean Koontz's I think), one such man went around a neighborhood in the dead of night and killed certain pets he found outside. Then I think he placed the horribly mutilated bodies slightly hidden in the front yard of a house that also had pets whom he spared. The bodies would be easily found, the grief and horror would be tremendous and the family pets of the house he targeted would likely be killed too, by vengeful, paranoid neighbords. This kind of mischief is so much easier to do online, although the effects are not usually as profound.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Oh yes, despite my delusions of grandeur to the contrary.

A submissive with a God complex.. what a dichotomy!

It's the constant pursuit of perfection in myself and others that tends to lead to snippy comments, unfortunately... it is, of course, a fruitless pursuit, but I can't seem to prevent myself from trying.

LOL, oh how your words do speak truth to moi.http://www.smilies4you.de/content/smileypics/b10.gif

Catalinahttp://www.smilies4you.de/content/smileypics/b46.gif

 

[incubus'_sub]

I'm with Eviktar, sometimes it's just a matter of speaking plainly. If I want cutesy, warm fuzzy stuff I'll buy women's magazines or watch Oprah.

Be really honest, don't you occasionally lose patience with some of the inane questions that are posted here? eg "I'm sick & it doesn't seem right because I'm a sub !!" Now is it really better to waffle on in vast sympathetic detail to this person or to simply point out that we are people first, subs second & a bit of common sense wouldn't go astray if she wants to be part of this lifestyle?
There are gentle sweet souls who would perhaps consider such a response to be a nasty comment. It's not.

I don't know that anyone on this board is deliberately nasty or mean for the sake of it in itself. We can't always agree with everyone else, nor can we realistically expect to change their opinions or ideas. We can, however, attempt to cut through some of the ******** as we see it by stating our own views without excess fluff.

 

[dolf]

*getting mildly frustrated*

ok, this isn't a lit specific "she said something mean" question....i'm asking peoples opinions on the presence of evil in human nature.
i'm asking why a man emotionally abuses his wife. i'm asking why people turned in their jewish friends to the nazis. i'm asking why there ae workplace bullies. i'm asking why people dish out racial abuse...

i want to know peoples opinions of why certain people are so lacking in guilt or compassion that they can kick the defenceless

everyone gets testy sometimes, everyone snaps when a stupid question is asked for the umpteenth time or when people just don't listen.

 

[catalina_francisco]

As I said before, there is no simple one size fits all answer to that question......more like a million and then some. If it were simple to nail down there would not be so much money in the therapy business or self help books.....nor would there be anything but sweet and precious beings in this world which would get equally as frustrating. It's life.

Catalinahttp://www.smilies4you.de/content/smileypics/b41.gif

 

[graceanne]

*getting mildly frustrated*

ok, this isn't a lit specific "she said something mean" question....i'm asking peoples opinions on the presence of evil in human nature.
i'm asking why a man emotionally abuses his wife. i'm asking why people turned in their jewish friends to the nazis. i'm asking why there ae workplace bullies. i'm asking why people dish out racial abuse...

i want to know peoples opinions of why certain people are so lacking in guilt or compassion that they can kick the defenceless

everyone gets testy sometimes, everyone snaps when a stupid question is asked for the umpteenth time or when people just don't listen.

yeah, what she said. Deliberate and unjustified meanness.

 

[dolf]

....cut&paste from the gb thread....

we thought this would be a good conversation to bring to the bdsm board because of the bizarre conflict i se in some of the people here....many of the sadists are also some of the most compassionate people i've spoken to.

obviously there are 101 reasons behind it but there surely must be just a few general reasons....

if you have a cruel streak do you know where it came from?

For the most part, I'd say cruelty is a sign of a deep, personal unhappiness, stemming from insecurity or low self-esteem/self-worth. How this comes about is likely as diverse as people themselves. Perhaps some come from unstable or broken homes, abusive parents that instill a belief that the individual is worthless or incapable of being loved. With others it may be a matter of poor relationships, both friendships and romantic involvements, where they come to question their own self-worth, perhaps coming to believe they aren't capable of being liked or loved. Others may just be beaten down by life, getting fucked over by friends, government, or society in general. Eventually they reach a point where they feel that the only way they'll ever climb above their feelings of misery and worthless is by giving in to the system and ruthlessly attacking others. In other words, success can only come at the expense of others.

I'd say some people only feel better about themselves by tearing down others. They elevate their own feelings of worth by belitting others, taking pleasure in the misery they inflict on others. And, of course, the attention they draw from their actions only serves to feed their ego. Nevermind that it's a negative attention. After all, to those people, the only thing worse than being despised is being ignored. If nobody pays them any attention, again, they feel as though their opinions and actions, and thusly themselves, aren't being validated. It hits an emotional chord that reminds they how unimportant or worthless they are, which only breeds more hostility and more cruelty.

Similarly, I would say that the need to be cruel is similar to the need for people to lie, play games, and jerk people around - both online and off. Again, it likely varies from person to person, but deep down...I'd say it's about emotional needs. More often than not, the person doesn't love himself or herself, and if they don't love themselves, they don't expect anyone else to love them either. However, we all crave emotional satisfaction, we all have emotional needs. For the cruel person, again, they live for negativity. Being hated or resented is as good as being loved. And since they are sooner to believe people are capable of hating them rather than loving them, they can believe the emotions to be genuine and accept it. (Unlike with love, where we often find ourselves questioning just how much someone loves us, how deeply, why, etc.)

Compassion, as surely as common manners or simple skills, is something learned. I don't believe compassion is an innate human quality. So, we're back to the notion that somewhere along the way, those people were taught to be cruel, taught to hate. They learned that it's a better - define better however you like - way than being compassionate and loving. Compassion leaves you open to getting hurt. Cruelty doesn't. Being compassionate only to be repaid with cruelty...hurts, it's damaging to the heart, mind, and spirit. But cruelty returned for cruelty is expected, and can therefore be stoically accepted. So, being cruel and heartless gives you a certain distance, a distance that provides a strong shield against the cruelty of others.

*shrug*

I'd say cruel people are the way they are because they've learned the behavior as a survival instinct. Compassion is weakness and weakness is to be looked down upon, preyed upon. Fact of the matter is, we're a very selfish and opportunistic species, looking out only for ourselves or those that can aid us in our desires.

one point i would argue though...compassion can be a weakness without reason and logic....but compassion can be one of man's greatest strengths! compassion inspires trust and loyalty. trust and loyalty create the bonds that hold a family/group of friends/ community together. there is strength in numbers.

we are not selfless ants or worker bees, working towards a greater good...it is compassion that inspires the rules that keep society from plunging into anarchy.

i'm a believer in compassion

 

[catalina_francisco]

....cut&paste from the gb thread....

we thought this would be a good conversation to bring to the bdsm board because of the bizarre conflict i se in some of the people here....many of the sadists are also some of the most compassionate people i've spoken to.

obviously there are 101 reasons behind it but there surely must be just a few general reasons....

if you have a cruel streak do you know where it came from?

Though somewhat distracted right now I will go out on a limb here to suggest sadists of the BDSM persuasion are compassionate beings as a part of that sadism. Let's face it, IME of living with a sadist of the extreme tastes and being a masochist on a similar level of taste, to me cruelty and lacking compassion would be if he withheld his desires and made me suffer the loss of something we both find intensely pleasureable and fulfilling. I don't see it as fitting into the previous discussion of why people are intentionally nasty trying to hurt people though. Yes, his pain is intentional, but it is also done within the confines of a relationship I consented to knowing what I was getting into and not being able to dive in the deep end quick enough. I'm also not sold on the idea compassion is something we learn, for some it is there from birth regardless of the knocks life deals them. I also don't think sadism is necessarily taught through life, though for some it is a learned skill....others it is who they are just as masochists and subs do not automatically equate to abuse victims in previous life experiences.

Catalinahttp://www.smilies4you.de/content/smileypics/b20.gif