What's the difference...

[Lancecastor]

..between a vanilla woman and a sub in training?

I ask this question from my perspective.... because I haven't touched a so-called vanilla woman in ten years that doesn't secretly yearn for D/s.

All I need to do as a man is see it and create the climate in which it may blossom, in my view.

There have been threads here talking about how to cross that bridge, how to raise the issue, broach the topic, etc....I've simply found that by being my same old confident, assured, dominant self in all situations that the women I meet who are interested in me fall into the s role automatically anyway.

Likewise, the situations where it doesn't happen naturally are treated by me as evidence that She's not my grrl, bad choice, and on I go....but it wasn't until ten years ago or so that I figured that part out. That's my responsibility in the process, I figure....to listen, hear and see what is right for me.

Consequently, after twenty years of feminist dogma clouding things for me as a man at times, I am now more confident in my traditional thinking than ever...which is: the D/s framework is inherantly a male/female social/cultural preset paradigm anyway, so it requires no "work" or "discussion"...you just be it.

Slowly at first of course, like anything a man does with a woman he wants to stick around....but you just do it.

No need to explain, is there?

So...is there really any difference between a vanilla person and a hardcore bdsm person....other than the degree to which they have revealed their inner truths?

Wondering what you think;
Lance

 

[WillowPuss]

Oh good grief ... this is a tough one.

Hmmmmmmmm ... do you mind if I go and think this one through a bit first?

 

[Lancecastor]

No....

Oh good grief ... this is a tough one.

Hmmmmmmmm ... do you mind if I go and think this one through a bit first?

....by all means, think away!

We like thinkers here at Casa del Castors

Cheers;
Lance

 

[Persephone36]

Totally don't understand what you're getting at here Lance...you start by questioning are *all* vanilla women potentially subs in training.

Okay -- how about vanilla women who move their boundaries around -- go past 'nilla -- develop an interest in light bondage, say nipple clamps, the occasional role play -- but have no interest in a "real" D/s relationship and the full power exchange it implies, even just kept to the bedroom.

I've been perfectly happy being that kind of woman. I'm not vanilla -- I enjoy vanilla sex as the base I come back to -- but until I met one particular man I wasn't interested in a full D/s relationship in the bedroom -- and for that matter I may never be.

It's something we're exploring. I have just a strong desire to explore my dominant side as my sub -- and quite frankly I don't think either could limit me to the smorgasboard of sexual activity that's out there.

Feminism has nothing to do with it. Really, that's a subject that's best kept out of a discussion like this. Because you're suggesting that feminism has held you back whereas I think you're being completely *blind* to the fact that it's feminism, and the host of other liberating movements that went with it, that allow *human* beings to express their sexuality more freely.

If you think it's easier now to identify a sub woman -- or to convert a vanilla one to a sub -- that's probably all the subconscious stuff going on in you as to which woman you're attracted to and approach. Nothing to do with society other than that you're lucky that sex comes up faster in relationships and more openly than it ever did before.

It's common psychological theory that 80% of why were attracted to someone for a sexual relationship has to do with working out an unfufilled aspect of a relationship with one of our parents. It one of the most basic ideas held in psychology. (The other 20% btw is physical attraction.) So this whole thing of women fulfulling something natural in them -- that's all generalization on your part from your personal experience. And after all -- psychologically -- and subconsciously you'll only be attracted to a certain kind of woman -- so your generalizing about the female population as a whole from your personal experiences doesn't really hold water from my perspective.


P.

 

[Lancecastor]

Thanks...

...for your opinion overview on "The Psyche of Lance"...but I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on the Question posed?

(So...is there really any difference between a vanilla person and a hardcore bdsm person....other than the degree to which they have revealed their inner truths? )

Lance

 

[Persephone36]

LOL! Honestly Lance -- *if* that was the question -- then it was pretty damn hard to find amongst everything you wrote. Look over your first few paragraphs -- I don't see the question there, I see other ones -- but not that one. Not trying to be rude, just pointing it out to you. You're the one who puts your personal experiences out as an example.

No -- there's no difference in vanilla person or BDSM person and how they reveal their inner core truths.

Because people are people. BDSM people are no different from Vanilla people. In fact, some people who are 'nilla, who aren't 'nilla and aren't into hardcore bdsm, and some people who are bdsm -- may change throughout the course of their lives as to what suits them, and how they evolve sexually.

I know a woman who spent her 20's being heavily involved in bdsm as a sub. She was owned by a couple, met her husband because was given to him as a present. As their relationship evolved, she became a switch and they both became swingers. Her marriage ended -- she's still hardly 'nilla -- but she doesn't do a D/s exchange of power in the bedroom with her lovers.

But whose to say she might not...and you never know -- she might as she gets older -- just go back to vanilla sex solely.

You never know -- people are individuals. And people's sexuality changes and evolves.

P.

 

[TheWanderer]

My 10¢ (my 2¢ is free...)

Oddly enough, Lance, this has been something I've been wondering about myself! (one of about 10,000,000 questions yet to be asked)

At first, looking back on the relationships I've been fortunate enough to have, including the first 'real' one (more real than my marriage) with my current roommate - and in all of them, the Dominant nature of my own sexuality always showed through, creating a submissive aspect in my partners. While I wasn't really pursuing true D/s (wasn't really aware of it at that time), the underlying themes - and quite possibly the foundations - were there. Looking back, I've been trying to determine if it was true - that with some exceptions (the obvious being Dommes! heh), most women were 'subs waiting to happen'.

But as I've thought about it more, and taken a closer look, I've realized that the women I've been with have all suffered some form of abuse in their life. And that my strength of character is part of what drew them to me. I think you've got the right idea, Lance, that it's not all women, it's just the ones we're drawn to and are drawn to strong men who carry themselves with the aspect of control in their lives.

And Perspehone - with no psychological research, that's a conclusion (relating to parents) I've come to believe on my own... are you the older sister Mom never told me she had???

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: My 10¢ (my 2¢ is free...)

.....But as I've thought about it more, and taken a closer look, I've realized that the women I've been with have all suffered some form of abuse in their life. And that my strength of character is part of what drew them to me. I think you've got the right idea, Lance, that it's not all women, it's just the ones we're drawn to and are drawn to strong men who carry themselves with the aspect of control in their lives.


~~~~~~~~~~ I think you have hit on it.

 

[A Desert Rose]

oops wait a minute....

~~~~~~~~~~~I was a bit too hasty. Let's take out the abused woman part, ok? You, Wanderer, are speaking I know from your own life experiences. However, I was never an abused person, in any way and I am very much a submissive adult lady. So, aside from that part of the quote, I think you have still hit on it.

 

[Lancecastor]

If that's the case....

No -- there's no difference in vanilla person or BDSM person and how they reveal their inner core truths.

Because people are people. BDSM people are no different from Vanilla people.

You never know -- people are individuals. And people's sexuality changes and evolves.

P.

...then how do you feel about those who label themselves a particular way and say with definitive words that that's the way they've always been and always will be?

Are they failing themselves in not considering why they are so firm...or narrow...in their views?

Or, are they simply fully self-actualized?

Or are there no answers, hence making all labels and BDSM itself a silly construct with no connection to any individual's reality?

Lance

 

[WriterDom]

All Dommes are subs in training. They just need the right man to take hold of the reins.

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: oops wait a minute....

~~~~~~~~~~~I was a bit too hasty. Let's take out the abused woman part, ok? You, Wanderer, are speaking I know from your own life experiences. However, I was never an abused person, in any way and I am very much a submissive adult lady. So, aside from that part of the quote, I think you have still hit on it.

I have seen a lot of wounded birds in BDSM circles, but don't believe it's a required component or appropriate generalization.

Lance

 

[A Desert Rose]

Is this funny or what?

All Dommes are subs in training. They just need the right man to take hold of the reins.

~~~~~~~just gigglin'.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: oops wait a minute....

I have seen a lot of wounded birds in BDSM circles, but don't believe it's a required component or appropriate generalization.

Lance

~~~~~~~~~~Absolutely it's not. I am living proof of it.

 

[A Desert Rose]

..between a vanilla woman and a sub in training?


Wondering what you think;
Lance

~~~~~~~~I have thought about this and this is what I THINK you are asking and this is what I THINK I mean--- LOL---:
There is no difference between a vanilla woman and a sub in training IF that is the woman who is attracted to YOU. I mean to YOU specifically, LANCE CASTOR. Hear me please, I am not saying that all vanilla women are subs in training. Only those who are drawn to the likes of YOU.
Concise enough? I don't like to write a novel when I can get my point said in just a few well chosen words. Hope these were chosen well enough.

 

[MissTaken]

[BNo need to explain, is there?

So...is there really any difference between a vanilla person and a hardcore bdsm person....other than the degree to which they have revealed their inner truths?

Wondering what you think;
Lance [/B]

I don't believe there is a difference.

For some, submission lies dormant until their is an awakening, of sorts.

Outside stimuli suggests that to the sub, whether it be in the guise of a strong, confident man who happens to be a Dom or whether it is based on friendship and information available to her.

The internet has gone far to help those of us who were "sleeping, " to recognize something inside themselves.

All of my relationships, nilla or otherwise have been with men who had a desire to control.

As far as the abuse being a precursor? It happens in any llifestyle.
How many homosexuals have a history of abuse?
How many nilla hets have a history of abuse?
How many cross dressers, celibate or asexual folks have a history of abuse?


On and on...it is not exclusive to BDSM.

No way.

However, I believe that further abuse that occurs in BDSM is far more detrimental to a woman who is a full blown sub than in a nilla relationship?

Off topic: Perhaps it is time to start another thread?

 

[Persephone36]

Re: If that's the case....

...then how do you feel about those who label themselves a particular way and say with definitive words that that's the way they've always been and always will be?

Are they failing themselves in not considering why they are so firm...or narrow...in their views?

Or, are they simply fully self-actualized?

Or are there no answers, hence making all labels and BDSM itself a silly construct with no connection to any individual's reality?

Lance

They may think of themselves as fully self-actualized -- and for themselves, they may be.

That doesn't say everyone is -- or that everyone should be *striving* for that.

I don't believe, for myself, in labeling people and then saying those labels *must* stick. That includes people labeling themselves. If they want to change the label -- great! If they decide it's not for them -- great again! I don't think we all *have* to actively define ourselves every minute of the day.

I don't judge people that way.

However, they're not silly constructs -- we all need some kind of structure in which to make some definitions of ourselves in relationship to others. They help, but I think they're most helpful when not used as some kind of rigid stricture.

I think everyone should have the freedom to change and evolve if they so wish.

But I think each individual is a work in progress -- I'm not about to hold them to any kind of "failing" or not. I just don't view people that way.

 

[MzChrista]

..between a vanilla woman and a sub in training?

I ask this question from my perspective.... because I haven't touched a so-called vanilla woman in ten years that doesn't secretly yearn for D/s.

All I need to do as a man is see it and create the climate in which it may blossom, in my view.

There have been threads here talking about how to cross that bridge, how to raise the issue, broach the topic, etc....I've simply found that by being my same old confident, assured, dominant self in all situations that the women I meet who are interested in me fall into the s role automatically anyway.

Likewise, the situations where it doesn't happen naturally are treated by me as evidence that She's not my grrl, bad choice, and on I go....but it wasn't until ten years ago or so that I figured that part out. That's my responsibility in the process, I figure....to listen, hear and see what is right for me.

Consequently, after twenty years of feminist dogma clouding things for me as a man at times, I am now more confident in my traditional thinking than ever...which is: the D/s framework is inherantly a male/female social/cultural preset paradigm anyway, so it requires no "work" or "discussion"...you just be it.

Slowly at first of course, like anything a man does with a woman he wants to stick around....but you just do it.

No need to explain, is there?

So...is there really any difference between a vanilla person and a hardcore bdsm person....other than the degree to which they have revealed their inner truths?

Wondering what you think;
Lance

Now see lance heres the problem. Im sure you think you being thoughtful and no body can object but read your post over and tell me shouldnt the dommes here feel dissed? If the only things women are is nilla or sub, then me and Eb and Shadowsdream and MsW etc are either lying or deluded. I dont think you mean that but thats what you are bringing up and of course it will piss people off.
So I aint gonna argue the deal but maybe you want to think about that because I know you werent trying to start shit here.

 

[Persephone36]

Re: My 10¢ (my 2¢ is free...)

And Perspehone - with no psychological research, that's a conclusion (relating to parents) I've come to believe on my own... are you the older sister Mom never told me she had???

Could be! I always wanted a younger brother!

P.

 

[Ebonyfire]

..between a vanilla woman and a sub in training?

I ask this question from my perspective.... because I haven't touched a so-called vanilla woman in ten years that doesn't secretly yearn for D/s.

All I need to do as a man is see it and create the climate in which it may blossom, in my view.

There have been threads here talking about how to cross that bridge, how to raise the issue, broach the topic, etc....I've simply found that by being my same old confident, assured, dominant self in all situations that the women I meet who are interested in me fall into the s role automatically anyway.

Likewise, the situations where it doesn't happen naturally are treated by me as evidence that She's not my grrl, bad choice, and on I go....but it wasn't until ten years ago or so that I figured that part out. That's my responsibility in the process, I figure....to listen, hear and see what is right for me.

Consequently, after twenty years of feminist dogma clouding things for me as a man at times, I am now more confident in my traditional thinking than ever...which is: the D/s framework is inherantly a male/female social/cultural preset paradigm anyway, so it requires no "work" or "discussion"...you just be it.

Slowly at first of course, like anything a man does with a woman he wants to stick around....but you just do it.

No need to explain, is there?

So...is there really any difference between a vanilla person and a hardcore bdsm person....other than the degree to which they have revealed their inner truths?

Wondering what you think;
Lance

I can't answer that , cause women in general do not interest me. Men in general do not interest me either. However specific men or women are worth knowing.

I am a loner. I do not hang out with packs of women or with packs of men.

Ebony

 

[MissTaken]

Re: Re: What's the difference...

I can't answer that , cause women in general do not interest me. Men in general do not interest me either. However specific men or women are worth knowing.

I am a loner. I do not hang out with packs of women or with packs of men.

Ebony

That isn't a Dom/me trait.

You just defined me to a T.


EB's theory of Natural Selection?

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Is this funny or what?

~~~~~~~just gigglin'.

Pathetically so. I have heard that before and the men who have said it to me have lived to regret it.

Ebony <enuf said>

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: Is this funny or what?

Pathetically so. I have heard that before and the men who have said it to me have lived to regret it.

Ebony <enuf said>

~~~~~~~~~and just gigglin' more. Eb, you do have a great sense of humor.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: What's the difference...

However, I believe that further abuse that occurs in BDSM is far more detrimental to a woman who is a full blown sub than in a nilla relationship?

Off topic: Perhaps it is time to start another thread?

~~~~~~~~~~MissT, would you please elaborate on this train of thought for me, if you are so inclined? I am not sure I fully understand what you are asking. Thank you.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: What's the difference...

That isn't a Dom/me trait.

You just defined me to a T.


EB's theory of Natural Selection?

I have found it better to be your own best friend, first. I have the same best friends I have had for over 35 years. Three. That's it. And one is a man.

I have new acquaintances, and new friends, and some adopted family members, but they are new to me. I do not know if it is a Domme trait, but it is a Ebony trait.