What's The Best Plan For Education?

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

If you had the power to fix the schools of America, how would you organize them?

 

[R. Richard]

I would install a feedback system. Each child would be tested at the end of each grade. The child would either pass a test that measured ability to apply what was supposed to be learned, or the child would repeat the grade. If there were too many failures for a given teacher, the teacher would become an ex-teacher.

The tests would, as I said, focus on applying knowledge, not memorization of data. The tests would be given and the results objectively graded. If a child failed a test, the child could then retake the test. Two failures would mean a trip back through the same class again.

A child would not be forced to suffer a failure because of an incompetent teacher, there would be computer based teaching available, featuring proved, competent teachers.

 

[Guest]

If teachers would become ex-teachers if their students do not advance, then the teacher deserves the right to refuse certain students.

I would refuse students who do not speak English, students with learning disabilities, students whose parents are not supportive, students with behaviorial issues, students with emotional issues, students on medication, students with less than stellar intelligence scores . . .

If I'm to be judged solely on what someone else deems excellence in my finished product, I deserve the right to choose my own raw materials.

 

[R. Richard]

If teachers would become ex-teachers if their students do not advance, then the teacher deserves the right to refuse certain students.

I would refuse students who do not speak English, students with learning disabilities, students whose parents are not supportive, students with behaviorial issues, students with emotional issues, students on medication, students with less than stellar intelligence scores . . .

If I'm to be judged solely on what someone else deems excellence in my finished product, I deserve the right to choose my own raw materials.

In the system I have described, if you teach other than the first grade [I'm not considering kindergarten here,] you would receive only students who have sucessfully completed the preceding grade(s). The students you receive have no choice, yet you demand choice? You have a living to earn. So do they.

A student who doesn't speak American wouldn't pass the test for the previous grade. A student with severe learning disabilities also wouldn't pass the test for the previous grade.

The public schools take it upon themselves to not only force children with behavioral issues to attend school, but also to have at least a part of their grade determined, based upon said behavioral issues. Now, suddenly, you don't want to deal with said students anymore. Interesting.

In high school, it was demanded that I have emotional issues with the subject matter in English class. Now, suddenly, you don't want to deal with the emotional issues. Interesting. A student with severe emotional issues wouldn't pass the test for the previous grade.

Your rejection of diabetic students shows you in a very bad light.

You would receive students from the general population. Your students would, in general, have average intelligence. In any case, the students that you received would be students who have sufficient intelligence to pass the tests to advance from the previous grade. If the previous teacher could do it, why couldn't you?

Obviously, there will be students who are not capable of successfully completing school. Such students would identify themselves very early in my program, unlikethe current system. Such students could then be professionally evaluated to find out the root cause of their inability. If the root cause could be successfully treated, by professionals, then the student could be returned to the main track. Else, the student would be put in a special track, for those with limited abilities. The teachers in the system would benefit from exclusion of pathological cases and so would the other students. If I may point out, the current system requires the teachers and the other students to deal with said pathological cases, a requirement based in insanity.

 

[Guest]

You and I have discussed education before, Richard. I know where you stand and I'm well aware of the outrageousness of my previous post.

Your last sentence: If I may point out, the current system requires the teachers and the other students to deal with said pathological cases, a requirement based in insanity. sums it up quite well.

Teachers are already expected to deal with all of those issues anyway.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SARAH is correct.

Teachers, especially, but schools in general are forced into a CATCH-22 situation. If they want Federal money they have to accept and keep all the retards, miscreants, and illegal aliens. Twenty years ago you could segregate them using Special Education Programs. But this is too much like Separate But Equal, so the bureaucrats want the asshats in regular classes absorbing every resource the teacher has or making instruction impossible for the others.

The teachers get aides, maybe, and behavior specialists who dont know their asses from their noses, and a ton of shit from everyone.

So long as the teaqcher knows her subject, knows how to get the lessons across, and has no criminal history, they should get their money, the support of the administration, and left the fuck alone. If Exasperella Retardo Crabtree cant cut it, send her ass to Special Ed.

 

[R. Richard]

You and I have discussed education before, Richard. I know where you stand and I'm well aware of the outrageousness of my previous post.

Your last sentence: If I may point out, the current system requires the teachers and the other students to deal with said pathological cases, a requirement based in insanity. sums it up quite well.

Teachers are already expected to deal with all of those issues anyway.

Yes, but the teachers are not required to actually teach the students. In addition, 'dealing with the issues' is merely shorthand for 'expell the bastard.'

In my system, the teacher is required to teach the subject. In addition, pathological cases self identify and can be dealt with by professionals.

 

[amicus]

]If teachers would become ex-teachers if their students do not advance, then the teacher deserves the right to refuse certain students.

I would refuse students who do not speak English, students with learning disabilities, students whose parents are not supportive, students with behaviorial issues, students with emotional issues, students on medication, students with less than stellar intelligence scores . . .

If I'm to be judged solely on what someone else deems excellence in my finished product, I deserve the right to choose my own raw materials[/I].

~~~

I was relieved when I read your later post where you stated you considered the above was, 'outrageous'; I gasped when I realized I was in complete agreement with the renown sweetsubsarahh!

I doubt my vote to abolish public education will be joined by many others, although one never knows.

I do not question the seminal importance of educating children. Not just basic education, but as high as they can individually achieve. I do suggest, however, that the modified concept of public education, to educate every child, willing or not, through a mandatory twelve year term, is cruel and unusual punishment, akin to torture, which, I think you have said, does not work anyway.

Because so many on this forum detest any mention of a free market society, I am reluctant to engage yet again in defense of individual parental responsibility for a child's education, but it is the only rational and honorable way to approach the subject.

Amicus

 

[CeriseNoire]

Well RR, it's funny you mention tracking. They used to have that until... every other parent used their Great American Right To Sue. So it isn't so much the public schools "forcing the kids with issues to attend".

Not only that, but the idea of telling us what to teach isn't exactly new; state standards, anyone? Some of us end do in fact up being told what to teach, only to realize the standards contradict each other, or that the test assesses something else entirely. As a matter of fact, my students tend to do very well on the standardized state test, yet I really don't feel that the test assesses their knowledge. At best, it shows their ability to take a test.

 

[ishtat]

My flight's been delayed so I will take up the cudgels. JBJ's initial question is in itself problematic because it seems to imply that 'something must be done,' someone (the government? must do it).

1 Make parents take more responsibility.

2 If education is to be publicly funded (and I'll assume that for the present purposes otherwise the debate will develop an entirely different character) I favour a system where the parents of each child are issued with a voucher for their child's education which they can redeem at any institution they please. The competition for vouchers would soon sort out which institutions were performing.

3 The Principals of schools should have total control over who they employ as teachers and how much they pay them.

4 The role of government in education should be completely dismantled except for the form of financing outlined above. No oversight at all of any description.

5 Teachers are professionals and should be allowed to make their own decisions about teaching, testing and examinations. Obviously the ones which are perceived as successful will gain more market share at the expense of the failures.

6 Principals should have the right to refuse any student they wish not to have, either temporarily or permanently. The withdrawal of funds on the loss of students is sufficient control.

7 Children should not be forced to remain at school post age 15 if they do not want to be there. But they should get no sort of unemployment support as they do in many countries in Europe.

8 Above all Teachers should be treated as professionals, paid well for doing a good job, sacked if they do not. Their old position of being in 'loco parentis' in respect to the children they teach should be restored fully.

I think SSS is far more reasonable than she herself allows.

I'm not American but my children were educated there for a number of years. Their schools were excellent - but fee paying - and that factor really keeps parents involved.

They've just called the flight for Port Moresby so I'll close there.

 

[R. Richard]

Well RR, it's funny you mention tracking. They used to have that until... every other parent used their Great American Right To Sue. So it isn't so much the public schools "forcing the kids with issues to attend".

AFAIK, public schools don't force children to attend school. The scumbags take care of the forcing.

Not only that, but the idea of telling us what to teach isn't exactly new; state standards, anyone? Some of us end do in fact up being told what to teach, only to realize the standards contradict each other, or that the test assesses something else entirely. As a matter of fact, my students tend to do very well on the standardized state test, yet I really don't feel that the test assesses their knowledge. At best, it shows their ability to take a test.

The problem with a lack of testing is that the child who wants to attend college is immediately faced with taking at least one test, the SAT [actually three separate tests, but graded as one test.] A low score means no scholarship and junior college.

Since you grade your students, you either test them or you base your grades on your subjective asessments. I wouldn't allow an individual teacher to grade my child, based upon subjective asessment. If you're better at making up tests than the state, by all means contacty the state and let them know of their deficiency.

 

[R. Richard]

My flight's been delayed so I will take up the cudgels. JBJ's initial question is in itself problematic because it seems to imply that 'something must be done,' someone (the government? must do it).

1 Make parents take more responsibility.

I can do this. Some of the other people who collect what's owed can also do it. No elected official will let trained, qualified personnel do it and there's no other way to make it happen.

2 If education is to be publicly funded (and I'll assume that for the present purposes otherwise the debate will develop an entirely different character) I favour a system where the parents of each child are issued with a voucher for their child's education which they can redeem at any institution they please. The competition for vouchers would soon sort out which institutions were performing.

What of the child who trustingly goes to 'school,' only to find that the people running it are insane. [Google up Eagle Rock school system. Eagle Rock is a community of Los Angeles. They used to have 'the right kind of school system.' Unfortunately, graduates were found to lack certain advanced skills, such as reading, writing and spelling.]

3 The Principals of schools should have total control over who they employ as teachers and how much they pay them.

I pay for the schoool and the salaries and some asshole decides what is done with my money, with no oversight? You have got to be kidding. We had a revolution here, because of that sort of thinking.

4 The role of government in education should be completely dismantled except for the form of financing outlined above. No oversight at all of any description.

The high school where I finally graduated from [yes, I did graduate] trained students in such esoteric things as 'hidden meanings' and 'purple passages.' When the graduates tried to go to college, they had to take 'bonehead English,' because they only knew 'hidden meanings' and 'purple passages.'

5 Teachers are professionals and should be allowed to make their own decisions about teaching, testing and examinations. Obviously the ones which are perceived as successful will gain more market share at the expense of the failures.

What of the children who go to school, do the work requested of them and then find that their teacher is an incompetent? No wait! They're just kids, they don't have any rights.

6 Principals should have the right to refuse any student they wish not to have, either temporarily or permanently. The withdrawal of funds on the loss of students is sufficient control.

"We don't need your kind here, Rastus. Go somewhere else." Unfortunately, there is this hoodlum organization called the United State Supreme Court that doesn't agree with you. They can cause federal scumbags to be dispatched.

7 Children should not be forced to remain at school post age 15 if they do not want to be there. But they should get no sort of unemployment support as they do in many countries in Europe.

Dropouts don't get unemploymnent in the US. However, the US won't allow a child to learn in the public library, because that would require testing to make sure the child was really learning something. Then, the testing would reveal that the public school children, in many cases, weren't learning anything.

8 Above all Teachers should be treated as professionals, paid well for doing a good job, sacked if they do not. Their old position of being in 'loco parentis' in respect to the children they teach should be restored fully.

Teachers in public schools are union. All union employees are paid the same rate, based upon training and time in grade. You have no idea what it takes to fire a union employee.

I think SSS is far more reasonable than she herself allows.

I'm not American but my children were educated there for a number of years. Their schools were excellent - but fee paying - and that factor really keeps parents involved.

American public schools are not fee paying.

They've just called the flight for Port Moresby so I'll close there.

 

[ishtat]

My flight's been delayed so I will take up the cudgels. JBJ's initial question is in itself problematic because it seems to imply that 'something must be done,' someone (the government? must do it).


I can do this. Some of the other people who collect what's owed can also do it. No elected official will let trained, qualified personnel do it and there's no other way to make it happen.


What of the child who trustingly goes to 'school,' only to find that the people running it are insane. [Google up Eagle Rock school system. Eagle Rock is a community of Los Angeles. They used to have 'the right kind of school system.' Unfortunately, graduates were found to lack certain advanced skills, such as reading, writing and spelling.]


I pay for the schoool and the salaries and some asshole decides what is done with my money, with no oversight? You have got to be kidding. We had a revolution here, because of that sort of thinking.


The high school where I finally graduated from [yes, I did graduate] trained students in such esoteric things as 'hidden meanings' and 'purple passages.' When the graduates tried to go to college, they had to take 'bonehead English,' because they only knew 'hidden meanings' and 'purple passages.'


What of the children who go to school, do the work requested of them and then find that their teacher is an incompetent? No wait! They're just kids, they don't have any rights.


"We don't need your kind here, Rastus. Go somewhere else." Unfortunately, there is this hoodlum organization called the United State Supreme Court that doesn't agree with you. They can cause federal scumbags to be dispatched.


Dropouts don't get unemploymnent in the US. However, the US won't allow a child to learn in the public library, because that would require testing to make sure the child was really learning something. Then, the testing would reveal that the public school children, in many cases, weren't learning anything.


Teachers in public schools are union. All union employees are paid the same rate, based upon training and time in grade. You have no idea what it takes to fire a union employee.

I think SSS is far more reasonable than she herself allows.


American public schools are not fee paying.

RR We are entirely at cross purposes. You are assuming that the current system with all its problems will continue (to stuff up) wheras I am suggesting it needs to be totally reformed around a market model. If schools are made independent of government that is the vital change. Independence would also severely limit the courts capacity to interfere.

Get the government out of the equation and Parents will start to take their responsibility for holding their children's schools accountable.

I know that American public schools are not fee paying but when my kids were in the US they attended a private school.

20 years ago I ran a public service unionised organisation and ended up firing 60% of the staff (1300 people) . It is far from being impossible, you just have to be sure it's right and be very very determined to carry it through.

I'm going now , this must be the slowest dial up on the planet.

 

[CeriseNoire]

AFAIK, public schools don't force children to attend school. The scumbags take care of the forcing.



The problem with a lack of testing is that the child who wants to attend college is immediately faced with taking at least one test, the SAT [actually three separate tests, but graded as one test.] A low score means no scholarship and junior college.

Since you grade your students, you either test them or you base your grades on your subjective asessments. I wouldn't allow an individual teacher to grade my child, based upon subjective asessment. If you're better at making up tests than the state, by all means contacty the state and let them know of their deficiency.

Um, higher up you said "public schools take it upon themselves to force students to attend".

I knew you'd read what you wanted into what I said, but what can I say, I must be stubborn. I'm very aware of college testing and what they mean. I attended college in the US, so yes, I took (and aced) the SAT.

I am not calling for the dismissal of tests, but simply for tests that assess what they say. I always provide my students with a rubric so they know what skills will be assessed on a test, project, or presentation in my class. In other words, I wouldn't give them a spelling test and then grade them on penmanship. Besides, I've already said my students test very well on the state's test, what I mean is that I don't necessarily teach what the state prescribes; I've found that teachers who do tend to have a bigger failure rate. Go figure

As for the state, I'm too old to be naive enough to think the state gives a hoot what people in the classroom (you know, the ones that actually interact with everyone's kids) have to say. As for not trusting one teacher with your kids, should you decide to have any, you do have the option of homeschooling them so that you can pass on your obviously superior bran of wisdom.

 

[R. Richard]

Um, higher up you said "public schools take it upon themselves to force students to attend".

I knew you'd read what you wanted into what I said, but what can I say, I must be stubborn. I'm very aware of college testing and what they mean. I attended college in the US, so yes, I took (and aced) the SAT.

I am not calling for the dismissal of tests, but simply for tests that assess what they say. I always provide my students with a rubric so they know what skills will be assessed on a test, project, or presentation in my class. In other words, I wouldn't give them a spelling test and then grade them on penmanship. Besides, I've already said my students test very well on the state's test, what I mean is that I don't necessarily teach what the state prescribes; I've found that teachers who do tend to have a bigger failure rate. Go figure

As for the state, I'm too old to be naive enough to think the state gives a hoot what people in the classroom (you know, the ones that actually interact with everyone's kids) have to say. As for not trusting one teacher with your kids, should you decide to have any, you do have the option of homeschooling them so that you can pass on your obviously superior bran of wisdom.

I attended high school, at the point of a scumbag gun. I never learned anything of any worth there, save in my math or my chemistry classes.

I NEVER received a passing grade in any English class, save for the final grade, which was always a C grade. I took the SAT and scoredover 1575 of 1600 possible. [They wouldn't release the SAT scores in the high school I was forced to attend.] What I'm trying to point out is that at least the English teachers in the high school I attended never cared if I learned anything or not, just that I would write a theme on 'My Dream For World Peace' type of thing. The one thing that they did care about was having to justify flunking me, when I could outscore 99+% of all students inthe USA, using standardized tests.

I have taught classes, computer programming classes, using my own proprietary teaching method. I achieved really outstanding results. However, I couldn't teach in the USA public schools, since I don't have a teaching certificate.

 

[CeriseNoire]

Your high school didn't release scores? You must be much older than me then, because when I took it, College Board (the folks that own the SATs) had a little box on the form that you could check so they'd send the score report to you in addition to your high school and the colleges of your choice. The school had no control over that.

So your English teachers sucked, thus all teachers are the same and can't possibly be any good at what they do, is that right?

As for you teaching, I said nothing about you teaching in the public schools. I simply pointed out that if you wouldn't trust any teacher to grade your child, you had the option to teach him/her yourself. And if the lack of a teaching certificate is all that's keeping you from teaching, move to one of the several states that allow you to start teaching while you get certified.

 

[Dragonlipz]

I attended high school, at the point of a scumbag gun. I never learned anything of any worth there, save in my math or my chemistry classes.

I NEVER received a passing grade in any English class, save for the final grade, which was always a C grade. I took the SAT and scoredover 1575 of 1600 possible. [They wouldn't release the SAT scores in the high school I was forced to attend.] What I'm trying to point out is that at least the English teachers in the high school I attended never cared if I learned anything or not, just that I would write a theme on 'My Dream For World Peace' type of thing. The one thing that they did care about was having to justify flunking me, when I could outscore 99+% of all students inthe USA, using standardized tests.

I have taught classes, computer programming classes, using my own proprietary teaching method. I achieved really outstanding results. However, I couldn't teach in the USA public schools, since I don't have a teaching certificate.

RR - there are those among us whose curiosity and thirst for knowledge is such that they neither need nor do they do well in organized classes.....I was a 'C' student throughout school until I got to college where I was able to really learn and appreciate the learning - at a pace that wasn't hindered by the rest.
Our educational system does help more than it hurts, (now there's a ringing endorsement!) and not all of us are as motivated as those few like yourself.....Thank god my parents forced me to go to college, I've been able to earn a helluva lot more money than I ever would have as a machinist.......

 

[R. Richard]

RR - there are those among us whose curiosity and thirst for knowledge is such that they neither need nor do they do well in organized classes.....I was a 'C' student throughout school until I got to college where I was able to really learn and appreciate the learning - at a pace that wasn't hindered by the rest.
Our educational system does help more than it hurts, (now there's a ringing endorsement!) and not all of us are as motivated as those few like yourself.....Thank god my parents forced me to go to college, I've been able to earn a helluva lot more money than I ever would have as a machinist.......

Do you have any idea what kind of hourly wage a senior machinist [the kind they call a model maker] makes?