What's my line?* (a mini lesson)

What's My Line?


  • Total voters
    16
  • Poll closed .

Angeline

Poet Chick
Joined
Mar 11, 2002
Posts
27,332
How free is your free verse?

Are your lines primarily end-stopped? Do they end on a strong stressed syllable and/or have punctuation or a clear pause to the next line giving them a naturally sentence-like syntax?

Here's Ezra Pound end-stopping:

__________And all that day
Nicea moved before me
And the cold grey air troubled her not
For all her naked beauty, but not the tropic skin,
And the long slender feet lit on the curb's marge
And her moving height went before me,
__________We alone having being
And all that day, another day:
___________Thin husks I had known as men,
Dry casques of departed locusts
____________speaking a shell of speech. . .
Propped between chairs and tables. . .
Words like the locust-shells, moved by no inner being;
___________A dryness calling for death.
(Excerpted from Hugh Selwyn Mauberley)

See how each line has a sense of complete thought with puntuation or a pause, even when they enjamb with an unstressed word on at the start of the following line (like "and")? It gives the poem an orderliness and a measured pace.

~~~~

Perhaps your lines are more often parsed, that is giving the appearence of sentence-like syntax but not necessarily containing complete syntactic thought. They can stand on their own or be enjambed but the enjambed line usually starts with an iamb or other weak beginning.

Here is some parsed syntax from William Carlos Williams' Pastoral:

The old man who goes about
Gathering dog lime
Walks in the gutter
Without looking up
And his tread
is more majestic than
That of the Episcopal minister
Approaching the pulpit
Of a Sunday.
Meanwhile
The little sparrows
Hop ingenuously
About the pavement
Quarreling
Over those things
That interest them
With sharp voices
But we who are wiser
Shut ourselves in
On either hand
And no one knows
whether we think good
Or evil.
__________These things
Astonish me beyond words!

This was written rather early in Williams' life as a poet. The syntax suggests complete thoughts but takes a longer time to deliver them than the poem with end-stopped lines did. And the enjambment usually leads to a weak, unstressed syllable or word so you are forced to read in an even (albeit somewhat unnatural), plodding way. It's kind of fussy and boring if it goes on too long (as it does here imo). And it ends with the poet having to tell you how to react instead of building the astonishment into the poem for you to feel as you read.

~~~~~

Or are your lines more annotated? Do you enjamb and then force a strong syllable or word onto the beginning of the following line, which makes the reader pause there? When you do this you are in effect rushing them through one line and walloping them with an emphasis or pause at the beginning of the next line.

Annotated lines offer most potential for experimentation in free verse, but they've has been around a long time. When the free verse folk at the beginning of the 20th century (mainly Pound and the Imagists) were looking to break out of metered formulaic lines, they saw this older way of writing a line (in Dante, Cavalcanti and Milton, for example) as a return to Classicism.

Look at these lines from Milton's Paradise Lost. The poet is explaining the concept of conscience to Satan:

__________wakes the bitter memory
Of what he was, what is, and what must be
Worse.

The first line seems complete but is not and moves into a line beginning with a weak word which pushes the stress onto What, which is then echoed across the line. The line seems to be a statement in and of itself, but then moves again to a strong word at the start of the third line (the only word on the line in this case) and the reader is forced to emphasize "worse" and view the preceding line in a new and different context. Here, the enjambment gives the reader at least two possible meanings.

When William Carlos Williams figured out how to use this annotated style in his poems what we think of as his distinct voice emerged. He's taking a "classic" way of constructing lines from earlier poets and adapting it to his version of free verse.

His poem Spring and All, which is basically the same theme as Pastoral, moves completely away from parsed lines and look what a difference it makes:

The sunlight in a
yellow plaque upon the
varnished floor

is full of a song
inflated to
fifty pounds pressure

at the faucet of
June that rings
the triangle of the air

pulling at the
anemones in
Persephone's cow pasture--

When from among
The steel rocks leaps
J.P.M.

who enjoyed
extraordinary privileges
among virginity

to solve the core
of whirling flywheels
by cutting

the Gordian knot
with a Veronese or
perhaps a Rubens--

And so it comes
to motor cars--
which is the son

leaving off the g
of sunlight and grass--
Impossible

to say, impossible
to underestimate--
wind, earthquakes in

Manchuria, a
partridge
from dry leaves

In this poem he doesn't have to tell you he's astonished (like he did in Pastoral) because you feel it yourself in those last four strophes.

There are so many variations to these three ways of ending lines. Read The Fish by Marianne Moore. She has a free verse pattern that uses parsed and annotated lines in a distinctive way.

But what about you? What do you do with your lines? Do you think about them in these ways at all? Which of the three styles appeals to you or is there another way you prefer?

You can create your own free verse forms, in a sense, by varying these types of line endings (and line beginnings) in patterns or no pattern. But you can control it , and in fact you should control your lines. Your poems will thank you for it.

Wait! There's a poll! Everyone loves a poll!


*Ideas from James Unterbach's Art of the Poetic Line.
 
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not meaning to be rude or anything but don't you think that regimenting your lines in such and such a way detracts from the (for want of a better word) flow of the artistic juices?

editting to say I think I just contradicted myself i.e forms etc lol
 
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not meaning to be rude or anything but don't you think that regimenting your lines in such and such a way detracts from the (for want of a better word) flow of the artistic juices?

editting to say I think I just contradicted myself i.e forms etc lol

True. :D

You don't have to do it either way, you can just write as Tess said. But I like knowing why something is working (or not) and it's fun to experiment. I also think most "great" poets had some system they adhered to, some we'd no doubt find nutty as all get out if we knew the details. But free verse is not always so free.

And Annie I also think it proves that most writers have more of a comfort zone with forms than they'd be willing to admit. People who consider themselves modern pooh pooh them but anyone who writes regularly has rules they follow.
 
True. :D

You don't have to do it either way, you can just write as Tess said. But I like knowing why something is working (or not) and it's fun to experiment. I also think most "great" poets had some system they adhered to, some we'd no doubt find nutty as all get out if we knew the details. But free verse is not always so free.

And Annie I also think it proves that most writers have more of a comfort zone with forms than they'd be willing to admit. People who consider themselves modern pooh pooh them but anyone who writes regularly has rules they follow.

Now that is a very interesting point which could turn a lot of poets on their heads but only if they had the guts to see it was true! What I don't understand is these peope that say forms are dead still rave about great songwiters ..... but don't their songs rhyme?
 
Depends on what I wanna say. It has
to to with tempo and texture. If I want
a couple of phrases read with a certain
type of flow, you'll see me doing like
this, breaking the lines to force the
reader to experience them as tightly
linked, minimum pause, maximum
internal containment in a stanza.

Other times
a phrase is a phrase
and needs to be read
alone.
 
True. :D

You don't have to do it either way, you can just write as Tess said. But I like knowing why something is working (or not) and it's fun to experiment. I also think most "great" poets had some system they adhered to, some we'd no doubt find nutty as all get out if we knew the details. But free verse is not always so free.

And Annie I also think it proves that most writers have more of a comfort zone with forms than they'd be willing to admit. People who consider themselves modern pooh pooh them but anyone who writes regularly has rules they follow.

I admire people who can write in english forms. They kill my creativity; I sort of end up serving the form rather than the poem.

I tend to play by ear. I heard something recently I've been exploring; the idea that each line is a sub unit of meaning within the text and each should nearly be able to stand alone.
 
I admire people who can write in english forms. They kill my creativity; I sort of end up serving the form rather than the poem.

I tend to play by ear. I heard something recently I've been exploring; the idea that each line is a sub unit of meaning within the text and each should nearly be able to stand alone.

there's a form where that has to happen (well a couplet anyway) I'll have to look it up to tell you which one though
 
Depends on what I wanna say. It has
to to with tempo and texture. If I want
a couple of phrases read with a certain
type of flow, you'll see me doing like
this, breaking the lines to force the
reader to experience them as tightly
linked, minimum pause, maximum
internal containment in a stanza.

Other times
a phrase is a phrase
and needs to be read
alone.

E.) all of the above



^^ what they said
depends on the poem, its voice

having said that, i think i may have a natural preference to write in the parsed and annotated over end-stopped, and when it comes to reading others .... hmmmn .... i don't think i have a preference at all. agaqin, depends on how it works for the individual poem. does that make me a fence-sitter of the worst kind? :eek:

*picks splinters out of my ...*
 
ha! i just looked at the poll results after voting - seems for so many 'totally confused' poets, you're all doing pretty damned well on it :D
 
another question:

do you all think about this stuff AS you write your piece, or is that a consideration that you consciously give time to on rewrites and edits?

i freely admit that (unless it's a challenge with a specific form, or a write where form is set before the write) i just write first, then take a look and see what's happening and where it needs tidying and stuff. :eek:
 
You mean to tell me there are rules to these thingies? Dag nabert, I wish you alls would quit feedin me all this intelletualism smarticalism stuff cuz I'd hate to embarrass my untalented English Profs anymore than I have on poeticizin. They already think me queer :rolleyes:.

My degree is being earned at Literotica--I could say sexanomics, but that would be trite.

Learns sumptin new each day. Test in the morning when she posts poetry.
 
another question:

do you all think about this stuff AS you write your piece, or is that a consideration that you consciously give time to on rewrites and edits?
I don't do rewrites. I've tried, but almost always end up turning a bad poem worse.

I have 99% of a poem in my head before I write it. But not it's line breaks, stanza sectioning and other visual stuff. That happens as I type it, Most of it on that first write, but I might correct things in edit, just like I correct bad spelling and grammar (hopefully).

And it's not a gut feeling kind of thing. I'm OCD analytical about it. Probably to the point where no reader would give a rat's behind.
 
I don't do rewrites. I've tried, but almost always end up turning a bad poem worse.

I have 99% of a poem in my head before I write it. But not it's line breaks, stanza sectioning and other visual stuff. That happens as I type it, Most of it on that first write, but I might correct things in edit, just like I correct bad spelling and grammar (hopefully).

And it's not a gut feeling kind of thing. I'm OCD analytical about it. Probably to the point where no reader would give a rat's behind.

well, in edit, yeah - i do more that way than in total rewrites. those are fewer and further between but when i wrote longhand (in the days of pen and paper), my edits were done as rewrites, rewriting the entire poem to try out the look and feel of edits before typing them up as a done piece. so, nowadays, as i write a poem directly to word, before i save it there will be edits all over the place to get it to be as it feels it's meant to be - for me. which is why i often have trouble accommodating suggestions for changes, as i've already worked it through to where i want it to be - but if i put up a piece 'in progress', that's when i put it out there totally raw now - that way i am more open to others' ideas for change and they often help me!
 
I think I will stop putting things into 'Poetry in Progress' for some strange reason as soon as they are up there in black and white for whatever reason, I lose interest in them completely. They've fled the nest and that's that ...... good job I'm not a mother :)
 
I think I will stop putting things into 'Poetry in Progress' for some strange reason as soon as they are up there in black and white for whatever reason, I lose interest in them completely. They've fled the nest and that's that ...... good job I'm not a mother :)

LOL--I'm starting to love the poetry in progress because I see it in black and white and find all the suckiness.
 
another question:

do you all think about this stuff AS you write your piece, or is that a consideration that you consciously give time to on rewrites and edits?

i freely admit that (unless it's a challenge with a specific form, or a write where form is set before the write) i just write first, then take a look and see what's happening and where it needs tidying and stuff. :eek:
Well, now that you explained
it seems especially clear
that I change it
up to annotate, enjamb
my parsed phrases,
then end stop the last line.

Yes, I think about it as I write, I just didn't have the terms for it.
 
You mean to tell me there are rules to these thingies? Dag nabert, I wish you alls would quit feedin me all this intelletualism smarticalism stuff cuz I'd hate to embarrass my untalented English Profs anymore than I have on poeticizin. They already think me queer :rolleyes:.

My degree is being earned at Literotica--I could say sexanomics, but that would be trite.

Learns sumptin new each day. Test in the morning when she posts poetry.
ha, ha, ha,
I've noticed I'm following you around in new poems and agreeing with whatever you said. Making me feel like a rubber stamp.
:rose:
 
No, not stamp--multicolored member. I actually learned to process poetry much slower because of your encouragement, assigned reading list, and criticism, 1201.

So see, all is not for naught.
 
True. :D

You don't have to do it either way, you can just write as Tess said. But I like knowing why something is working (or not) and it's fun to experiment. I also think most "great" poets had some system they adhered to, some we'd no doubt find nutty as all get out if we knew the details. But free verse is not always so free.

And Annie I also think it proves that most writers have more of a comfort zone with forms than they'd be willing to admit. People who consider themselves modern pooh pooh them but anyone who writes regularly has rules they follow.
I tried once to have a conversation with Pat C. (the original Mr. Anti-Form) about why, if he was following no formal elements at all in his poems, the lines all seemed to break at approximately the same length. My idea was that he was probably unconsciously sounding the stresses in the lines, or unconsciously counting syllables, or some such organizational thing.

He denied it, of course, though I still think he was.

That was a very interesting passage, Ms. A. Did you quote the book or simply paraphrase it?

I won't vote, because while I think a lot about breaks and stresses, I'm not sure I do any one thing consistently. The most consistent thing I do is break in places where I want a slight pause in the voicing of the poem. That's probably simplistic, and I know other poets who don't do it at all, but I often find their poems hard to read as a result, even when I like the poem.
 
I tried once to have a conversation with Pat C. (the original Mr. Anti-Form) about why, if he was following no formal elements at all in his poems, the lines all seemed to break at approximately the same length. My idea was that he was probably unconsciously sounding the stresses in the lines, or unconsciously counting syllables, or some such organizational thing.

He denied it, of course, though I still think he was.

That was a very interesting passage, Ms. A. Did you quote the book or simply paraphrase it?

I won't vote, because while I think a lot about breaks and stresses, I'm not sure I do any one thing consistently. The most consistent thing I do is break in places where I want a slight pause in the voicing of the poem. That's probably simplistic, and I know other poets who don't do it at all, but I often find their poems hard to read as a result, even when I like the poem.
re: Pat C. check what he does with phrases
re:slight pause, Pinski makes note of that, probably the most sensible way of reading, instead of straight though to the next bit of punctuation.
But you know the layman stops at the end of the line, don't they?
re: stresses are more variable than you can imagine, and to a great degree subjective.
 
re: Pat C. check what he does with phrases
Would you like to be more specific? Check what about what he does with phrases?
re:slight pause, Pinski makes note of that, probably the most sensible way of reading, instead of straight though to the next bit of punctuation.
The poet I was particularly thinking of here (in terms of not pausing at the end of lines) once told me that she did not want the reader pausing until she indicated that they should with punctuation, or something like that. Fly once posted something about the various reasons or techniques one might use to determine where or why line breaks should occur; pause in narration was only one of them.
But you know the layman stops at the end of the line, don't they?
Why I called my tendency to use breaks that way "simplistic."
re: stresses are more variable than you can imagine, and to a great degree subjective.
I doubt they are more variable than I can imagine; you are oversimplifying my comment or, perhaps, we read very differently. When I read, I get a sense of a number of what I'll call "beats" in a line. Is that a better term? The number (and where, vaguely, they fall) depends not only on the words, but on the context of the lines surrounding the particular line, the meaning of the words, regional/national accent, etc.
 
No, you check it out, I'm working from memory, I think I remember what would pass for phrasal rhythm.
As for continuing to punctuation, that is the accepted practice. Pinski makes more sense, in that the reader should make that in context.
Re: Stresses, there runs in a line a main stress, some of the secondary stresses are options as to how it should be stressed.

SHE walks in beauty, like the night.
I see as the main stress, "in" and "the" unstressed. The ambiguity is She and Walks. Either way it works. It would be much to have them both stressed, but not that unlikely. A guess that entails another conversation as to what exactly is stress, another day.
Shakespeare has a lot of that, also.
 
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