What's it to you? In 5 points.

[egelante]

I fully expect this thread to do one of two things - fall flat or become a big vat of bile. But no matter.

Having seen dozens of threads turning into political gang fights, I'm curious about what the poles of politics mean to various people here.

I know about generics and if I want to know definitions, I can look at wikipedia; I don't want generic definitions, I want personal views.

So, describe what each of the following two words means to you in five short statements for each. Don't squabble over it, just say how you see it and maybe why you see it that way. One post each. Except me... because this one doesn't count. I'll make my answer when I've thought about it a bit.

Are you equal to it? If so, go.

- Socialism

- Conservatism


As I haven't left myself any room for responding to individual posts: thanks for taking the time to post, I'll enjoy reading and absorbing!

And before this gets bogged down in political theory, may I suggest a general amnesty on the lack of exact political accuracy in setting conservatism and socialism at opposite ends of this spectrum. Take capitalism as an opposite if you wish.

 

[oggbashan]

What those two words mean to me in the UK, or specifically England, are NOT the same as in the US.

The definitions of those words in the US are so different that I might as well consider them as untranslatable, so the next statements are ENGLAND only.

Socialism with an upper-case S is not socialism with a lower-case s. Socialism with the upper-case S is a political theory. With a lower-case s it is a system of looking after the weaker members of our society.

For Wales, upper-case Socialism is the heritage of the mineworkers and has many positive features such as providing health services and education by mutual self-help. That does not have the same connotations in England. In Scotland, upper-case Socialism has more revolutionary overtones with links to communism through some of the shipbuilding unions.

I'll leave it at that. If I start on Conservatism, or continue on lower-case socialism I might as well write two or three more contest entries.

Og

 

[rgraham666]

I don't use socialist and conservative myself. I go back to Jefferson for my description of the political divide.

Men by their constitutions are naturally divided into two parties: 1. Those who fear and distrust the people, and wish to draw all powers from them into the hands of the higher classes. 2. Those who identify themselves with the people, have confidence in them, cherish and consider them as the most honest and safe, although not the most wise depositary of the public interests. In every country these two parties exist, and in every one where they are free to think, speak, and write, they will declare themselves. Call them, therefore, liberals and serviles, Jacobins and Ultras, whigs and tories, republicans and federalists, aristocrats and democrats, or by whatever name you please, they are the same parties still and pursue the same object. The last appellation of aristocrats and democrats is the true one expressing the essence of all.

 

[Liar]

The poles of politics you mentioned are on different axes.

That being said...

You wanted 5 points.

Here are 5 core ideas to socialism:

1. Society has a collective duty to look after one another.

2. Individuals can't be trusted to do so by their own volition, so it must be mandated.

3. Those who are disadvantaged, for instance born into poverty, should be aided so they can reach their full potential. ("pulling oneself up with one's bootstraps" requires that one has at least bootstraps)

4. Financial power is as oppressive as political power, and political power can and should therefore be used to balance out financial power.

5. The Government can own and operate businesses. If you're a more hard-core socialist, the Government should own and operate businesses.



And here are 5 for Conservatism.

1. Change is risky, you never know what you gonna get. So let's stick to what we're familiar with.

2. Um... actually, that's it.



As you can see, one is an ideology, the other is a strategy. They don't nessecaritly contradict.

 

[sr71plt]

I didn't realize politics had poles.

Would these be anything like Totem poles? Or would these be little men running for office in Warsaw?

 

[TE999]

Socialisim vs. Conservatisim.

Socialisim (as relates to an individual):

1. Being dependent on the government for everything in life, cradle to grave.

2. Electing politicians that will fulfill your every need in #1.

3. Abandoning such futile pursuits as ambition, a work ethic, individualisim and independent thought.

4. Adopting hedonisim as a lifestyle and the State as your religion.

5. Not being concerned about tomorrow as someone else will take care of that for you.

ps: "War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength."

Conservatisim (as relates to an individual)

1. Knowing there's no such thing as a free lunch, you pull your own weight and God helps them who help themselves.

2. Having the freedom to succeed or fail, dealing with the consequences and learning from your mistakes.

3. Enjoying the fruits of your labors and having the freedom to share them with others if you choose to do so.

4. Living your life unfettered by a blizzard of government laws and regulations controlling every phase of your existence.

5. Feeling proud honoring and respecting your country, it's founders, it's flag, it's Constitution and it's military.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

Hmm, I spot an opportunity for some mischief. Apologies in advance, couldn't resist.

Socialisim vs. Conservatisim.

Socialisim (as relates to an individual):

1. Being dependent on the government for everything in life, cradle to grave.

1. Having a government that provides the support mechanisms to allow you to bounce back should life catch you out with an unexpected curveball (I prefer doosra, but no-one would get the cricket reference.)

2. Electing politicians that will fulfill your every need in #1.

2. Electing politicians that will protect your jobs and livelihoods from ruthless short-termism in the pursuit of quick profits.

3. Abandoning such futile pursuits as ambition, a work ethic, individualisim and independent thought.

3. Embracing such noble pursuits as stability, team work and a stable work environment where you perform a valuable and respected function.

4. Adopting hedonisim as a lifestyle and the State as your religion.

4. Um, Socialism is hedonism...? I thought it was solidarity with the workers and all that...

5. Not being concerned about tomorrow as someone else will take care of that for you.

5. Knowing your future will not be sacrificed to the altar of a slimy chancer making a fast buck

ps: "War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength."

"War is Murder, Freedom is Illusionary, Ignorance is Exploited."

Conservatisim (as relates to an individual)

1. Knowing there's no such thing as a free lunch, you pull your own weight and God helps them who help themselves.

1. Lunch is everyone else. Random events shit on people who may or may not deserve them.

2. Having the freedom to succeed or fail, dealing with the consequences and learning from your mistakes.

2. If you come from a shit background don't bother, you're probably going to fail anyway so there's no point giving you the chance in the first place.

3. Enjoying the fruits of your labors and having the freedom to share them with others if you choose to do so.

3. Stealing the fruits of other peoples labours and throwing them back some pips if you feel like it.

4. Living your life unfettered by a blizzard of government laws and regulations controlling every phase of your existence.

4. Getting rid of all those inconvenient rules and regulations so you can get back to bulldozing the little folk and gambling away their pension funds.

5. Feeling proud honoring and respecting your country, it's founders, it's flag, it's Constitution and it's military.

5. Letting shysters exploit your pride and respect for your country so they can butcher your sons for their own personal advancement.

All I'm seeing from the States at the moment is blind tribalism with respect to politics and that can't be good.

Socialism is rubbish though. It's nice and fluffy in principle, but fails horribly in real life because it focuses too much on equality of outcome and the plain truth is we ain't all the same. Doesn't mean all of it should be treated like junk.

Personally I'd rather kick both Socialism and Conservatism out of a window and go with this:

1. Everyone has the opportunity to achieve their full potential regardless of background (Equality of Opportunity)

2. Government does the things that can't be done easily by individuals or individual companies because the eventual return may be too far in the future (long term infrastructure) or the interests of the providers cannot be aligned with those of the consumers (health) and only those things.

3. The govenment provides a safety net so an individual is not in danger of being destroyed by a single bad event. This is a net, not a comfy hammock. At some point the tap gets switched off.

4. Politicians are servants of the people, not their rulers. Don't elect anyone that gets confused about this.

5. Hydra is god, supreme ruler for life and must be supplied constantly with nubile women with large breasts

 

[driphoney]

I fully expect this thread to do one of two things - fall flat or become a big vat of bile. But no matter.

Having seen dozens of threads turning into political gang fights, I'm curious about what the poles of politics mean to various people here.

I know about generics and if I want to know definitions, I can look at wikipedia; I don't want generic definitions, I want personal views.

So, describe what each of the following two words means to you in five short statements for each. Don't squabble over it, just say how you see it and maybe why you see it that way. One post each. Except me... because this one doesn't count. I'll make my answer when I've thought about it a bit.

Are you equal to it? If so, go.

- Socialism

- Conservatism


As I haven't left myself any room for responding to individual posts: thanks for taking the time to post, I'll enjoy reading and absorbing!

You were asking a lot from these entrenched folks.

Perhaps, later you can ask people their definitions for the words equality, democracy and freedom and see what you get. As Ogg pointed out about the above words, we'd probably find they mean different things to different people.

I always think of socialism/capitalism and conservatism/liberalism as opposites.

 

[amicus]

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

{WMail Issue #36}

Therein lies the kernel of truth concerning political polarity. There is freedom for the individual, or there is not.

Amicus

 

[colddiesel]

{WMail Issue #36}

Therein lies the kernel of truth concerning political polarity. There is freedom for the individual, or there is not.

Amicus

For arguments sake I'll accept your either/or proposition but given that, in your system what is the scope and function of the rule of law?

 

[jeanne_d_artois]

1. Conservatism doesn't necessary mean preservation.

2. Conservatism can mean measured regulation of the use of resources such as fossil fuels but many political "Conservatives" don't agree with any regulation whatever and would let market forces decide.

3. Conservatism can mean keeping the best of the old and innovating with due caution.

4. Conservatism can be a hankering for The Good Old Days that never existed, keeping traditions and practices long beyond their useful life, and failing to adapt to changing conditions.

5. Conservatism can be a retreat from the modern realities of the world, and a failure to accept that our parents and grandparents weren't always right or sensible.

Like Og, these statements are relevant to England only.

Jeanne

 

[driphoney]

1. Conservatism doesn't necessary mean preservation.

2. Conservatism can mean measured regulation of the use of resources such as fossil fuels but many political "Conservatives" don't agree with any regulation whatever and would let market forces decide.

3. Conservatism can mean keeping the best of the old and innovating with due caution.

4. Conservatism can be a hankering for The Good Old Days that never existed, keeping traditions and practices long beyond their useful life, and failing to adapt to changing conditions.

5. Conservatism can be a retreat from the modern realities of the world, and a failure to accept that our parents and grandparents weren't always right or sensible.

Like Og, these statements are relevant to England only.

Jeanne

You are busy today, aren't you Jeanne?