What's good for the goose is good for the gander

[BlackShanglan]

His point, I think, is that women DO get to sit there and wait while men approach them. Then they get to choose whichever one they want.

I think that's a one-sided view. Case in point: my ex-housemate. Lovely woman, sweet personality, considerably overweight but not without charm. She was 26 when I last saw her and had never been kissed. Do you imagine that she found the dating scene one of continual excitement and intrigue? We shared a house for a year and occasionally went out to bars together. I never noticed a line of men waiting for her to make her choice.

The most attractive 10% of either sex get a lot of attention. The rest of us, I think, have pretty much similar experiences. We're just busy looking at how the top 10% get treated.

That's why the sex harassment laws are such a joke to me. I find them ridiculous. In fact, I've detailed in another thread, the gay guys who I guess "harassed" me when I was younger. Well, I don't really like gays in the first place, but I never felt mad that they liked me. It was flattering in fact. Women call it "oppression" when men like them, unless the guy is hot then they are happy about it. That doesn't seem right.

I don't think it's harassment or oppression for anyone to tell someone else, once, that s/he is interested and to take a polite "no" for an answer. If, on the other hand, the attentions are continued when the recipient has stated that they are not desired, or if they are made a requirement of continued employment - that's what the sexual harassment laws are there for. It's not wrong to like someone. It is wrong to badger him/her when the person has indicated that the advances are not welcome.

On the other hand, I think he needs to suck it up and stop bitching about it. Life is how it is. Facts are facts. There are plenty of things that suck about being a woman, I'm sure. He should accept the world the way it is and get on his life.

Mmm, true. Whatever is pleasant or unpleasant about the world, you can't change it by snapping angrily about it to random strangers. I think it's worth trying to change the world around you, but I also think it's important to have a sense of perspective and a constructive approach to the problem. Pouring out streams of bitter complaints about every single thing that annoys you doesn't seem to be a useful way forward.

 

[renard_ruse]

I don't think it's harassment or oppression for anyone to tell someone else, once, that s/he is interested and to take a polite "no" for an answer. If, on the other hand, the attentions are continued when the recipient has stated that they are not desired, or if they are made a requirement of continued employment - that's what the sexual harassment laws are there for. It's not wrong to like someone. It is wrong to badger him/her when the person has indicated that the advances are not welcome.

Its gotten to the point where men and women will not flirt with eadh other at work and maybe not even anywhere else because of the "chilling effect" these laws have on male-female interaction. The whole culture has changed into one of asexuality in most situations. It seems to me olden times were a lot sexier. Men would tip their hats to the ladies and the ladies would coyly smile. That was some romantic sh*t IMHO. These laws were rushed through and poorly thought out. Actually, I think they were created by the courts rather than the legislatures originally. Judicial activism of a major kind.

 

[thesorrow07]

I just got a brilliant idea. What if I started a thread asking by a vote, how many people have been called a racist, insulted, attacked, threatened, etc. by LJ? I think it would be a grand thread, with many replies, since Le Jerkoffloaf has lashed out at 95% of everyone here.

Next time I say something stupid like this, somebody kick me in the ass. This idea backfired in a big way. Cade had to bail me out of my own thread! That's how much of a shipwreck it was.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Its gotten to the point where men and women will not flirt with eadh other at work and maybe not even anywhere else because of the "chilling effect" these laws have on male-female interaction. The whole culture has changed into one of asexuality in most situations. It seems to me olden times were a lot sexier. Men would tip their hats to the ladies and the ladies would coyly smile. That was some romantic sh*t IMHO. These laws were rushed through and poorly thought out. Actually, I think they were created by the courts rather than the legislatures originally. Judicial activism of a major kind.

On the one hand, I do agree that it's sexier when one can flirt with any person one likes. On the other hand, I can see that women striving to get work done in their workplace would want to put the flirting on the back burner. That's not really so different from the old days, really, given that one wouldn't have flirted with one's co-workers back when they were all going to be male anyway. It's a matter of knowing the time and the place. Also quite possibly a matter of manners; I think one would be a great deal less likely to be slapped with lawsuit for a tip of the hat and a smile that lingers just a bit longer than for working "Hey, nice tits" into boardroom conversation.

I actually agree that the laws, at least as currently enforced in some locales, aren't great laws. The EEOC's definition of harassment given to a firm I used to work for was literally, "If the complaintant feels that it is harassment, it is." That's not very helpful, and neither is (as in my own firm's case) the EEOC showing up with fines and mandatory training after the first complaint of someone who had never indicated to anyone inside the firm that the behavior (forwarding of lewd email jokes) was a problem. I do think that a firm "I don't wish this to continue" should be the first step for anyone in a situation s/he isn't comfortable with. Otherwise, the law appears to require us to be mind-readers.

On the other hand, unreasonable laws are often the answer to unreasonable behavior. As with affirmative action, the real root problem driving sexual harassment laws is that asking people to just be reasonable and treat others decently didn't work. Too many of them decided not to be reasonable. Now we've got an unreasonable law, as we often do when we have to try to legislate something that would have been more happily handled by people acting decently toward each other. I can even summon some sympathy for the EEOC's hugely open-ended definition; no matter how long a list of behaviors you made, there'd always be someone who managed to find a way to achieve harassment in a new fashion.

My hope is that these are growing pains. It's only been about sixty years since people even began to question whether being openly racist was a good thing, and less for being openly sexist. With any luck, the more antiquated ideas die will with their believers and the younger generations come to the world with fewer and fewer of them. Then social mores can catch up and replaced laws with the same social repercussions and general disgust for the behavior that prevent workers from spitting on the carpet or picking their toenails.

 

[renard_ruse]

That's a rather eloquent defense of the sexual harassment laws I will grant you. However, I don't believe that "overcorrecting" something from the past is much (or in some cases at all) better than that which it is attempting to correct for. Its also a case of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Pushing heterosexuality into the closet isn't the answer to anything. Some of the same people who pushed the all sex is rape line (or at least were accused of that) were the same ones who came up with the idea that flirting is sexual discrimination. These were some far out women, many of them openly anti-male lesbians (no, not saying all lesbians are anti-male, but there was and to a lesser extent still is a subset in that community who are). I can hang with their theories in the realm of intellectual conjecture, but not as applied to real life.

I do think that a firm "I don't wish this to continue" should be the first step for anyone in a situation s/he isn't comfortable with. Otherwise, the law appears to require us to be mind-readers.

Traditionally the law was supposed to reward the vigilent (that's an old legal maxim I think). Today it seems to reward those who sit there and say nothing then bring a lawsuit a couple years later for millions of dollars.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

If he's young, say under 25, maybe 30 tops, he could sell his butt to gay guys for money but that's some risky sh*t. Much more likely to get HIV that way. If he's older he can't even do that.

Nope.

And the homeless problem isn't even on the radar of the national agenda. Partially because most homeless are men.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

His point, I think, is that women DO get to sit there and wait while men approach them. Then they get to choose whichever one they want. In fact, they say that they are "oppressed" because men harass them all the times for dates. Personally, I've never had sympathy for that (unless the man is truly dangerous or scaring them). Try being us, and NEVER having the opposite pursue you.

Oh but that's where women have it hard - Prince Charming doesn't come up to them all the time. They wind up with real men with human flaws. Oh, the tragedy of it all!

That's why the sex harassment laws are such a joke to me. I find them ridiculous. In fact, I've detailed in another thread, the gay guys who I guess "harassed" me when I was younger. Well, I don't really like gays in the first place, but I never felt mad that they liked me. It was flattering in fact. Women call it "oppression" when men like them, unless the guy is hot then they are happy about it. That doesn't seem right.

On the other hand, I think he needs to suck it up and stop bitching about it. Life is how it is. Facts are facts. There are plenty of things that suck about being a woman, I'm sure. He should accept the world the way it is and get on his life.

I refuse to accept things the way they are when they're this hopelessly skewed. I don't have to.

That having been said I'm glad we have daughters. They'll never have to put up with this shit.

 

[Redatlit]

Oh but that's where women have it hard - Prince Charming doesn't come up to them all the time. They wind up with real men with human flaws. Oh, the tragedy of it all!


I refuse to accept things the way they are when they're this hopelessly skewed. I don't have to.

That having been said I'm glad we have daughters. They'll never have to put up with this shit.

While I think to a certain extent the laws go too far, they are necessary. When I was 18 the husband of my employer felt me up every time he came into the business. I needed the job. I was afraid to tell my employer because I already knew who wins in that situation. After a week of trying to avoid him I quit. That was fun. Yeah, girls never have to put up with shit. In the 80's before these dreadful laws I put up with overt sexual advances and disgusting attempts to seduce me by executives important to my company. Do you think I would have kept my job if I'd complained? Please. Instead I had to use my wits and charm to get myself out of situations in a way that did not offend the creep. Thankfully I had male coworkers who also intervened on my behalf. Women should not have to put up with that crap in a professional environment. I don't mind the flirting, most women don't, but don't pretend we didn't put up with a lot of uncomfortable shit that went far beyond flirting before the harassment laws went into effect. I felt like I was in a no win situation when men of power in my company or companies we represented hit on me. I was pretty good at maneuvering my way through the mine field, but women who weren't? Disastrous. I would be willing to bet that even today more women handle the harassment themselves or quit, rather than file formal complaints.

 

[Javagirl]

Nope.

And the homeless problem isn't even on the radar of the national agenda. Partially because most homeless are men.

OMG, where the fuck do you LIVE? A cave? The homeless problem isn't on the agenda because "most homeless are men?" Obviously, you don't live in a big city because I see a hell of a lot of homeless WOMEN.

Your supposed "facts" are so fucking slanted that I have to laugh. Also, the fact that you work in sales makes sense now. You are pissed because women in sales kick fucking ass against men. Damn, did a successful woman outshine you in sales this year? Poor, poor LT.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

This is why homelessness isn't an issue of national concern...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_States

Traditionally single men have constituted the overwhelming majority of the homeless.

 

[Javagirl]

This is why homelessness isn't an issue of national concern...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_States

Traditionally single men have constituted the overwhelming majority of the homeless.

You get your stats from Wikipedia? LMAO

 

[Le Jacquelope]

And here's another one...

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/MSHDA_UnderstandingHomelessnessChapt1_158351_7.pdf

"The majority of the homeless population, roughly 70%, is comprised of adult males."

 

[Javagirl]

And here's another one...

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/MSHDA_UnderstandingHomelessnessChapt1_158351_7.pdf

"The majority of the homeless population, roughly 70%, is comprised of adult males."

The national agenda needs to address homelessness in general...not "there are more homeless men than women." Also, if you want to see another fucked up side of homelessness: there is rampant sexual abuse against homeless women. It's a fucked and vicious cycle.

http://new.vawnet.org/category/Main_Doc.php?docid=558

However, homelessness cannot be pinpointed as solely a "gender" issue. Homelessness is a serious issue. It's splitting hairs when we break it down men vs. women. It's an issue that needs to be recognized but our Fearless Leader in the U.S doesn't give a shit.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Ok so I got a PM about Moanique. Apparently she's had her face AV up for a few days and I never saw any face AV of hers at all.

Vette turd ran away from me no doubt because he knows I didn't see this and wasn't even AWARE of her asian heritage. But that's to be expected, he's not a real man, he never admits to being wrong.

 

[phrodeau]

Me so unsatisfied! Me troll you long time!

So you ought to be forgiven for posting this?