What would happen if......

[Wildcard Ky]

What would honestly happen if a state decided to secede from the US today? The reason I ask is because some right wing Christian group has plans to try to get S. Carolina to secede.

Without getting into the politics or mindsets of these people, I'm just wondering how would the Federal Gov't respond if a state did attempt to secede. Your thoughts on what the response would be?

Here's a link to the article about the group and their secession plans. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38571

 

[raphy]

Doesn't Vermont try and do that on a fairly regular basis?

(That's what I've heard from the locals around here since I moved here, anyway)

 

[cantdog]

I thought the Northern Kingdom was ashamed to be in the same state as Burlington and vice versa. I didn't know they wanted out of the Union.

Is it essentially the same litany of über Christian complaints?

Prayers must be forced down people's throats in school, we oughta hijack public buildings to display emblems of our religion in them, etc, etc?

Or is it just taxes? A greedy dog would complain about taxes if it wanted money instead of food; that doesn't take any virtue either.

cantdog

 

[Raging Whoremoans]

There's a radical group in Texas that tries it every five years or so. They never do seem to get the public behind them, though.

I've no idea how the gvmt. handles such things, WildcardKy. Has the movement actually made it into the state/local level?

~ R W

 

[snooper]

It happens in the UK also, and also for religious reasons. The last time was a movement in Lincolnshire to seceed from the UK on the grounds that they would move from being a Minor County to being a Test playing country in one simple jump.

 

[Guest]

just an idea

perhaps the government could build a special shuttle and call it the mayflower2 and offer to send those who feel persecuted to mars to found their own colony...it worked once *shrug*
just a thought.

 

[MathGirl]

What would honestly happen if a state decided to secede from the Union?

I'm more concerned with seceding from the Onion. I've been trying for weeks to stop them sending the damned thing, but it keeps popping up in my mailbox. I blame the whole thing on Dr M, who first told me about it.
Mg
Ps. That is only one of the many things for which I blame Dr M.

 

[cantdog]

Hey wildcard,

I copied your post and sent it with the link to a lot of my e-mail circle. When a day or so has passed, I bet I'll get some lovely replies! These guys are anything but shy.

I'll post the good ones here. One of them works in DC, he may have an objective answer, even.


cantdog

 

[Colleen Thomas]

When first tested the response of the Federal Government to session was military force. There can be little doubt the same response would occur. By the simple step of calling up the local national guard units the fed removes from state hands the only military foce it can muster.

The slow errosion of states rights however, leaves any attempt to seccede hopelessly unrealistic. At best the notion of seccesion has become a grandstanding tool for fringe groups to get some air time for their agenda.

-Colly

 

[cantdog]

It happens in the UK also, and also for religious reasons. The last time was a movement in Lincolnshire to seceed from the UK on the grounds that they would move from being a Minor County to being a Test playing country in one simple jump.

Sport is religion, isn't it?

 

[cantdog]

When first tested the response of the Federal Government to session was military force. There can be little doubt the same response would occur. By the simple step of calling up the local national guard units the fed removes from state hands the only military foce it can muster.

The slow errosion of states rights however, leaves any attempt to seccede hopelessly unrealistic. At best the notion of seccesion has become a grandstanding tool for fringe groups to get some air time for their agenda.

-Colly

Colleen ruins all the fun by being right again.

 

[cheerful_deviant]

The last time I checked, South Caroliana was the first to attempt secession the last time, about 143 years ago. And we all know how successful that was...

 

[Boota]

If a state seceded they would lose all federal funding. And considering that most state budgets rely heavily on federal funding and all 50 states are on the verge of bankruptcy, I would think that any state to secede would collapse under it's own weight in less than a year.

But, if they held out...

I would see military action as inevitable. Especially if it were a coastal or border state. The US could not allow even a separate and free state to make alliances that would endanger our existence. A seceded state would need outside support and that support would probably come from a hostile nation in order to undermine the rest of the US. We would have protect the newly seceded state even stronger than we do our territories.

 

[cantdog]

first fruits of the e-mail poll

My sister the lawyer (in New Hampshire):

What a great question! This is my response.

This is a purely legal analysis of the situation, based on the only document that I think would have any sort of controlling power - - the US Constitution. (South Carolina's constitution might allow for the right to secede, as well. God knows, New Hampshire's provides for the right to rebel against the State should the State fail to honor the "social contract," but I'm not sure how much that would play into the analysis, since the real question seems to be State vs. Federal authority. So I'm assuming, for the sake of the analysis, that South Carolina's own laws would allow for secession, should South Carolina's citizens wish to do it.)

The US Constitution is a voluntary document. The various States entered into an agreement about how they would treat one another, what the Federal government would be like, and how the balances of power between State/Federal and legislature/executive/judicial would operate. I see nothing in the main body of the Constitution, or the Amendments to it, that would prohibit any State from deciding it no longer wants to be part of the agreement (read "union"), and deciding not to be part of the agreement anymore is really what secession is, right?

I don't believe the other 49 States could keep South Carolina from seceding. States don't have power over one another, as you probably don't need to be told.

I don't think the Federal government has Constitutional authority to prevent secession, either, because the 10th Amendment clearly says that the powers not specifically handed over to the Federal government by the Constitution, as well as powers not specifically taken from the States by the Constitution, STAY WITH THE STATES. This says, to me at any rate, that since the Feds aren't given authority to keep South Carolina in the union, and since South Carolina's not specifically forbidden to leave, South Carolina can go if she pleases.

The Federal government DOES have authority to control Federal property that is within the borders of South Carolina, because Article IV, Section 3 gives them that power. If South Carolina decided to leave, and announced that she was laying claim to the Federal land within her borders and taking that land with her when she left (the polite political/diplomatic term for this sort of action is, I believe, "repartriation"), then there'd be a pretty interesting legal problem, if one finds those sorts of legal problems interesting.

The bottom line, I supppose, is more historical than legal. States and protectorates and provinces and holdings are forever becoming new countries just because they are willing to stand up and SAY they're new countries, and weather whatever shitstorm comes as a result. If South Carolina were willing to do that - - which is a sociological question more than anything else - - and if they were able to deal with the logistical problems that secession would entail - - which is a practical/monetary question - - then I don't think there's any legal basis to keep it from happening.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

I'm more concerned with seceding from the Onion. I've been trying for weeks to stop them sending the damned thing, but it keeps popping up in my mailbox ...

Ms Girl,

The only workable method for seceding from The Onion is to copy its Subject Header and Sender Email Addy into your killfile, or spamblocker.

You MUST have an aggressive SpamBlocker!

Unless you are amused by all that correspondence promising you a larger penis.

 

[Guest]

I don't know about states seceding, but talk of dividing California into north and south has been going on for years. I don't know if it's ever reached any official level, but I for one identify as a northerner.

Perdita

 

[Wildcard Ky]

The last time I checked, South Caroliana was the first to attempt secession the last time, about 143 years ago. And we all know how successful that was...

Yeah, but back then an armed response was an acceptable way of doing business. Times are a bit different now. Can you imagine the public reaction of sending the military into S. Carolina? Then if shooting actually started the public outcry would be enormous.

 

[rgraham666]

It looks like the future I envisioned for a game I designed is going to come true.

All kinds of tiny "nations" that leave the real power resting in the hands of the transnational corporations.

The only problem is that the corps are all set to conquer, but not to rule.

We have at least two distinct groups of seperatists here in Canada. I always laugh at them.

They'll find that their own little nations will be a case of getting what you wish for and it's not what you want.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Re: Re: What would happen if......

I'm more concerned with seceding from the Onion. I've been trying for weeks to stop them sending the damned thing, but it keeps popping up in my mailbox. I blame the whole thing on Dr M, who first told me about it.
Mg
Ps. That is only one of the many things for which I blame Dr M.

In otherwords you want to Unonion.

Stop the presses! "US To Fight Terror With Terror"

http://www.onion.com/news/index.php?issue=4020&n=1

---dr.M.

 

[cheerful_deviant]

Civil War Mk II

Yeah, but back then an armed response was an acceptable way of doing business. Times are a bit different now. Can you imagine the public reaction of sending the military into S. Carolina? Then if shooting actually started the public outcry would be enormous.

That is most likely true, the public outcry would be enoumous.

However I think the reality of today will come into play long before we get to that point. People move around too much in the modern world. 143 years ago, most people were born, grew up worked and died all in a 25 mile radius. They had very strong loyalty to their state because that was all they ever saw.

In the modern world, people move away from home all the time. Most all of my friends from High School and College are living in different states.

I think this fact alone will make secession almost impossible. There is bound to be a fairly signifigant percentage of poeple in any given state that are not natives and feel much more loyalty to their country and not just the state they currently reside in.

CD