What to do with a subordinate who tries to control everything?

[Pure]

I see that some who style themselves 'subs' have the most detailed 'program' that they want enacted. If they're paying the tab, the pro can service and enact that program for cash. NP.

BUT what should a Master do with someone professing that s/he is 'subordinate', that s/hehas given up power (to the Master) BUT who makes serious, ongoing efforts to control? (through any number of possible manipulations, 'suggestions.' etc.)

I don't see this just as the old question what to do with a 'smart ass' (who may be a pussycat underneath) I mean a real control freak even if they don't have a sassy 'attitude.' Is the condition curable?

 

[Guest]

I see that some who style themselves 'subs' have the most detailed 'program' that they want enacted. If they're paying the tab, the pro can service and enact that program for cash. NP.

BUT what should a Master do with someone professing that s/he is 'subordinate', that s/hehas given up power (to the Master) BUT who makes serious, ongoing efforts to control? (through any number of possible manipulations, 'suggestions.' etc.)

I don't see this just as the old question what to do with a 'smart ass' (who may be a pussycat underneath) I mean a real control freak even if they don't have a sassy 'attitude.' Is the condition curable?

Periodicly (if you will forgive the analogy) you will get a horse that has a tendancy to stick it's foot in things..Buckets, water containers..etc etc..etc..
You "cure" this problem, by the simple expedient of selling the horse to someone else.

For a subordinate, of the type you describe, I have never seen anyone enact a "cure". I have seen some people try, and end up with everyone involved being rather unhappy.
Better, I have always thought; for that sub, or that Dom/me, to find someone who fits what they want. And who is happier with what the other wants too.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Remind me to never buy a sub, er, horse from you!

 

[Shadowsdream]

I see that some who style themselves 'subs' have the most detailed 'program' that they want enacted. If they're paying the tab, the pro can service and enact that program for cash. NP.

BUT what should a Master do with someone professing that s/he is 'subordinate', that s/hehas given up power (to the Master) BUT who makes serious, ongoing efforts to control? (through any number of possible manipulations, 'suggestions.' etc.)

I don't see this just as the old question what to do with a 'smart ass' (who may be a pussycat underneath) I mean a real control freak even if they don't have a sassy 'attitude.' Is the condition curable?

Good question Pure

I counsel such BDSM couples and this is a recurring issue. Having had a couple here last night that has been struggling within the confines of such a relationship I will give you an insight into how I see it.

Keep in mind that this couple and many more that I counsel in My real world are friends of Mine even prior to their present relationship in most instances.

(Generally) the submissive enters this journey proclaiming their deepest needs or desires to submit...recognizing that the Dominant they have chosen is the person that truly brings out all of their hidden desires and respect. In the begining they are able to role play their statements very well as is the unsuspecting Dominant. As the relationship deepens and takes on new depths and expectations from them which may not in fact be their deepest desires or fantasies they begin to fall back on old crutches of manipulation. Pulling the "i am new" card forever (picture 9 months later) "i am processing" balarney when it is all day every day. "Poor me my sad past is causing interferance" et bloody cetra.

The Dominant before truly realizing the manipulation, gives extra attention to the submissive..the kissy kissy I will make it all better baloney. He or She eventually begins to withdraw emotionally and begins to simply role play 24/7...beating Their head against the brick wall..in fact CREATING the monster out of control by GIVING them the power to continue. The Dominant has begun to submit and the submissive has begun to dominate. If there is any reality in either of them it is more usual than unusual to see the natural progression to depression, anger and withdrawal.

Being the hard ass that I am in these situations I take these couples back to the first words they ever spoke to Me in their excitement with their new relationship and expose all of the bull I have seen developing since. On both sides of the whip. Where the submission and Dominance changed hands...how and why.

Once it has been ongoing and unfixable by all of the compromising the Dominant has been doing it is time to walk away or get real. Real fast while there is still a hint of respect left between them.

Both must be able to clarify out loud what the real issues are...if the sub is just having a great old time and sees it with no seriousness the Dominant needs to dismiss without emotion or respect. There comes a point that there is no other solution but "shit or get off the pot"

BUT

This issue can be seen in a different way depending upon the couples involved...another couple I mentor is in the same situation...got married the same weekend they contacted Me for guidance into D/s. His lack of certain attributes are stifling her ability to submit to Him in the way she desires the most. He is still at the role playing learning stage and she was born to submit...less than 6 months into their marriage they are very close to a divorce...due to the D/s and BDSM. A classy couple devoted to each other with very different vanilla lifestyle needs though their sexuality is well matched. Both want this D/s life immensely.

Is the controlling she does meant to dominate Him...yes..into Dominating her. Will it work...absolutely not but in the process she willl walk away not Him.

There are no blanket answers but generalities that apply in most cases.

The Dominant can submit and the submissive can dominate by manipulation but the relationship then cannot flourish beneath the guise of role play.

Once the Dominant takes the reins back and confronts the situation and takes their own share of blame for submitting it is fixable if in fact there is committment and desire left.

 

[catalina_francisco]

You can only cure a person who wants to be cured, if you can speak of curing that is. I think either you like owning a strong alpha sub or you better stay away from such subs.

I for one enjoy a strong partner, not that I enjoy disobediences but without a little bit of a challenge it gets so fucking boring. I live my life with a very strong sub, one that stimulates me intellectually and physically. Sometimes she comes very close to the borders of what I find acceptable behaviour but she never treads where she is not allowed.

I have had subs who are very obedient, who never challenge a command, who will never talk about their feelings, those are much harder to control and much harder to live with. Living with perfection is extremely hard especially if you are yourself not perfect; give me my imperfect and honest sub. She will not keep her mouth shut when I make stupid blunders, she will let me know how she feels and because she knows she is not perfect, will also not expect me to be perfect, and I also know that her submission is true and much harder for her which makes it also much more valuable for me.

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Re: What to do with a subordinate who tries to control everything?

There are no blanket answers but generalities that apply in most cases.

The Dominant can submit and the submissive can dominate by manipulation but the relationship then cannot flourish beneath the guise of role play.

Once the Dominant takes the reins back and confronts the situation and takes their own share of blame for submitting it is fixable if in fact there is committment and desire left.

This is true in part Shadowsdream, but time and again I see people who take on counseling others who allow their own personal values and views to interfere with the counselling process in such a way they do not see the reality of the 'individual' situation, but apply their blanket understanding and biases which often are based solely on their own experiences from their own perspective.

Part of years of training to become a professional counsellor, a big recurrent part actually, addresses this issue repeatedly....some counsellors get it, some others don't and often unfortunately it is the person who comes to them for the counselling who pays the price.

As tedious as it may be, past events in ones's life can and do present problems in a D/s relationship (and vanilla) and do not mean one or the other is not really into doing more than role play, or is manipulating the situation to get their own way...in reality thtey are often constantly struggling with a problem which is bigger than it even appears on the surface. If it wer easy to deal with there would not be such a huge financial industry in the US alone in psychotherapy.

There may be days where an issue that has been dealt with successfully by the parties involved months before is triggered again by a situation, a word, a flashback etc. The human psyche is not so easy to manage with a 'you just pull your socks up' attitude or a 'snap out of it'. It may not matter how much one wants and needs to dominate or submit, those issues are just as real as the D/s and need careful handling not more pressure. IME the person who is having the difficulty is not passively using it to their advantage, often they are beating themselves up internally and sometimes externally for what they see as their failure. IME to think in terms of generalisations is certain death to the counselling process being productive and positive, but looking at it with fresh eyes and no preconceived ideas, looking at it from their perspective and needs can be marvelous tools to help those involved find the solution which best suits them and their life and situation at that moment in time.

Catalina

 

[Shadowsdream]

Re: Re: Re: What to do with a subordinate who tries to control everything?

All very well and good...but trust Me Catalina I do not counsel from My own personal values but through the needs brought to Me through desires of the lifestyle of those who imply they wish to live it.

Common sense alone makes it obvious that people have baggage from their pasts that will influence day to day realities. When these issues are larger than the scope of the abilities of their Dom/me to fix or deal with in conjunction with the relationship and said submissive will not get professional counselling because it is preferable to receive the extra attention from their Dominant no matter that it has become negative you cannot convince Me that success is even close to ensured.

Yes of course no path is without a bump because of other issues but continual and expected negative behaviour does erode the submission and Domination. The points here are "continual" and so "expected" negative controlling behaviour makes it as near to impossible for the Dom/mes that I know and socialize with several times a week to feel comfortable taking their subs into the public BDSM community for "fear" of being made a fool of.

I have given you only 2 examples not the dozens I could...each completely different and most fixable if both will accept that either or both could in fact be the cause of the "escalation" of control in the wrong hands.

Everyone I counsel is counselled from their own issues and expectations.

I happen to have a very good reputation both as a counsellor in the lifestyle and almost daily am approached for assistance because of recommendations from those who have benefitted from My "face it up front" and fairness in not taking sides to stand firmly behind My words.

I agree counselling in the wrong hands is more hurtful than helpful.

This is true in part Shadowsdream, but time and again I see people who take on counseling others who allow their own personal values and views to interfere with the counselling process in such a way they do not see the reality of the 'individual' situation, but apply their blanket understanding and biases which often are based solely on their own experiences from their own perspective.

Part of years of training to become a professional counsellor, a big recurrent part actually, addresses this issue repeatedly....some counsellors get it, some others don't and often unfortunately it is the person who comes to them for the counselling who pays the price.

As tedious as it may be, past events in ones's life can and do present problems in a D/s relationship (and vanilla) and do not mean one or the other is not really into doing more than role play, or is manipulating the situation to get their own way...in reality thtey are often constantly struggling with a problem which is bigger than it even appears on the surface. If it wer easy to deal with there would not be such a huge financial industry in the US alone in psychotherapy.

There may be days where an issue that has been dealt with successfully by the parties involved months before is triggered again by a situation, a word, a flashback etc. The human psyche is not so easy to manage with a 'you just pull your socks up' attitude or a 'snap out of it'. It may not matter how much one wants and needs to dominate or submit, those issues are just as real as the D/s and need careful handling not more pressure. IME the person who is having the difficulty is not passively using it to their advantage, often they are beating themselves up internally and sometimes externally for what they see as their failure. IME to think in terms of generalisations is certain death to the counselling process being productive and positive, but looking at it with fresh eyes and no preconceived ideas, looking at it from their perspective and needs can be marvelous tools to help those involved find the solution which best suits them and their life and situation at that moment in time.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I can see your points, but also know how difficult it is for most people to even contemplate counselling, and so yes, many will refuse to go to regular counselling at least initially, especially if they are being told by their SO that they are afraid they will be embarrassed in public by their behaviour.

IMHO, for a strong relationship, D/s or vanilla, what others in the outside world think is of less importance than the welfare of your partner. It is difficult to heal, to feel even enough trust to confide and find support in a SO who is preoccupied with how your behaviour might be perceived by others and how that reflects on them. It is a nice fantasy to believe there are relationships where both Dominant and submissive are 100% perfect 100% of the time like the story models....unfortunately as you say, reality delivers us shit in many forms and which has to be dealt with hopefully with some balance in mind.

Frankly, for us if the problem were that huge it was likely to cause concern in public, there would be more concern over the issues from a welfare and relationship aspect than the observations of people who are not in the relationship and have no idea what is causing the difficulty, let alone any significant place in our daily existance. Appearances are nice, but if your partner is having problems and your main concern for getting them help is to save your own face, perhaps the problem is not solely that of the said to be problematic partner.

I think a relationship, D/s or otherwise, which continues to deal realistically with and cope together to overcome or balance out the problems which arise no matter how often or for how long, actually gains strength if the motivation of the relationship is real in the first place. There is a strengthening of bond which often cannot be shared with or penetrated by anyone. If it erodes aspects of the relationship, I question if their was a solid foundation to begin with.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Back more to the original topic though Pure (sorry if I hijacked ), are you referring to the subs who may have a list as long as their arm and yours of the things they will not do, and those they will are only the self serving ones as in those that please them? If so, I have a problem taking them seriously. I am all for limits if that is where you are at, and think they are a good thing, but what I see a lot of are submissives who do say they submit, but only submit to anything they enjoy and find 'acceptable'. In that case if I were a PYL, I would seriously consider if I were interested in trying to change that pattern or move on to someone who is more interested in a challenge.

Catalina (the ever dis....oops, obedient alpha sub )

 

[Guest]

Back more to the original topic though Pure (sorry if I hijacked ), are you referring to the subs who may have a list as long as their arm and yours of the things they will not do, and those they will are only the self serving ones as in those that please them? If so, I have a problem taking them seriously. I am all for limits if that is where you are at, and think they are a good thing, but what I see a lot of are submissives who do say they submit, but only submit to anything they enjoy and find 'acceptable'. In that case if I were a PYL, I would seriously consider if I were interested in trying to change that pattern or move on to someone who is more interested in a challenge.

Catalina (the ever dis....oops, obedient alpha sub )

HEY!!! I think I dated her!!!!!

 

[sunfox]

Back more to the original topic though Pure (sorry if I hijacked ), are you referring to the subs who may have a list as long as their arm and yours of the things they will not do, and those they will are only the self serving ones as in those that please them? If so, I have a problem taking them seriously. I am all for limits if that is where you are at, and think they are a good thing, but what I see a lot of are submissives who do say they submit, but only submit to anything they enjoy and find 'acceptable'. In that case if I were a PYL, I would seriously consider if I were interested in trying to change that pattern or move on to someone who is more interested in a challenge.

Catalina (the ever dis....oops, obedient alpha sub )

Yes, I'd be interested to know if this is about the above, or about someone whom, to take my own example, is the sort to simply 'take care' of all the little details of daily life without thinking about it. What I do could easily be termed 'control'... I do things a certain way around the house, pay bills on certain days, make lists of things needed, see that C does the things he needs to get done, etc.

That could easily be termed controlling, and is exactly that. But it is what C likes about me. He is not a details person. He doesn't remember the daily tasks that need doing to make life easy. I, however, am a details person. It's easy for me to remember those things, and see that they get done without needing to consult him on every little thing. This works for us, and may not for others. *shrug*

So what specifically did you mean in your original post?

 

[Netzach]

Sunfox and her SO sound a lot like me and M.

Dominants and submissives come in plenty of flavors, and believe it or not the type B Dominant does exist. I'm tired of seeing type A characteristics listed everywhere as "the way a Real Dominant (tm) will act."

I insist on controlling every single thing


--that really matters to me.

The details are not what matter to me. I see a relationship as D/s not when someone regiments every little aspect of someone else's life down to the underwear, but when you can say "you know, push come to shove they always do it Netzach's way."

I expect a submissive to iron that shit out on their own. Those seeking a vacation from the call of real life are eminently unsuited to me, and I to them.

As long as I get my fix of genuine adoration and tender willingness to be whipped periodically, as I need it, I really don't care if M does as he pleases, and he prefers it this way as well. That doesn't mean it's some kind of bedroom-only roleplay, it means it's a bearable situation *for me* in which I don't have to pretend I care about things I don't really have a strong preference on one way or the other, yet my every strong preference is therefore given maximum er...weight.

THAT is something clients require, Pure. "However Mistress wishes it, whatever Madame would like, anything You desire" blah blah blah, for every stupid detail.

 

[bridgeburner]

I think, much like any other relationship, if one party wants what the other does not want or cannot give then they need to part ways.

-B

 

[Pure]

sunfox said,

Yes, I'd be interested to know if this is about the above, or about someone whom, to take my own example, is the sort to simply 'take care' of all the little details of daily life without thinking about it. What I do could easily be termed 'control'... I do things a certain way around the house, pay bills on certain days, make lists of things needed, see that C does the things he needs to get done, etc.

That could easily be termed controlling, and is exactly that.

I think the subordinate's attending to details, and the master/mistresse's not getting involved in 'micromanagement' are interesting issues, but not those I intended to raise. I agree with N that micromanagement is not a necessary manifestation of power, but I would add that control of many specifics MAY be used as one method of subordination (just as the armed forces get picky about shined shoes and belt buckles, what way the hair can be worn, etc.).

I meant *control of the other person and of the relationship*. That the self-said 'sub' in fact determines what's done (in accord with their likes) and what's not done (in accord with their limits) by the other, and by both.
I dont consider sunfox's paying the electric bill as controlling the relationship or the other.

I do agree with some posters that, off the top, we want to set aside the 'misplaced persons' issue: I.e., if someone truly wants to call the shots, they can be told, "Well take your leave; you're not meant for the subordinate role; maybe try a masterly one."

IOW we are assuming the this subordinate (NOT misplaced) in some way wants a subordinate role, but in fact works strongly in the opposite direction (attempts to pursue a path whereby this 'sub' controls the relationship).

 

[sunfox]

Alrighty.. that makes a bit more sense to me. I just wanted to clarify, because I wasn't sure exactly what you were getting at.

 

[catalina_francisco]

IOW we are assuming the this subordinate (NOT misplaced) in some way wants a subordinate role, but in fact works strongly in the opposite direction (attempts to pursue a path whereby this 'sub' controls the relationship).

OK, well then both Dominant and submissive need to sit down and examine what is happening and why. It may be a response to the style or words of the Dominant. It could be outside stressors interfering with the process to let go. It could also be something from the past of the submissive fighting with their need to submit, in which case needs careful handling, understanding, and steps devised to work through the issues and/or how they are playing out in the relationship.

Of course there are going to be the Dominants who advocate just kicking butt, but I find that often tends to come from a lack of understanding of the human condition, misguided notions that is what being Dominant is all about, or just not interested in working at anything which might require some hard effort and a lot of patience, similar to the sub who just wants things their way and their way is going to be the only way....it reflects in some ways a dislike for facing the challenge preferring instead instant results.

And no, before getting jumped on, I do not see it as clear cut dominance and a need to be strict....that is a different matter. When issues arise, shut the fuck up is not always the most or only productive method of operational choice. I think working with the issues presents a more secure Dominant, strength, and one who is not afraid of working together toward what both people want. Submission, however much a part of a person, is not as easy to accomplish as many seem to perceive.

Catalina
(damn typos!!)

 

[bridgeburner]

IOW we are assuming the this subordinate (NOT misplaced) in some way wants a subordinate role, but in fact works strongly in the opposite direction (attempts to pursue a path whereby this 'sub' controls the relationship).

Okay, so what you're saying is this person despite all actions to the contrary really IS a submissive but is fighting it? It's possible, but I don't know that I buy it.

I think the problem is not that this person is a submissive in denial but that this person fetishizes the role of sexual bottom and may not be a submissive at all.

"It gets me off for you to tie me just this way, say just these things and touch me in exactly this manner."

That is not a person giving up control or power. That is someone who wants to experience the trappings of powerlessness in a specifically dictated way that is under his or her own direction. There's no submission in that.

Now, it's possible that the person is so scared of giving over actual power that s/he feels s/he must control the scenario, but eventually that should change as a higher comfort level is reached. If it either doesn't change or gets worse then I'd say you're not dealing with a bottom, much less a submissive at all regardless of what it looks like.

The bottom line is that if you're a Top and you know it and that's the only position that really satisfies you then this person is not for you.

Liking to be tied up doesn't automatically make one a sub, but attempting to control all situations is a big flag of a Top type personality.


-B

 

[Lancecastor]

I take a simpler approach to the matter.

A sub who is all about control is not a sub and is dismissed.

I have no time for idiots and fakes.

 

[Netzach]

"It gets me off for you to tie me just this way, say just these things and touch me in exactly this manner."



-B

Are there people like this? I've not met that many, and you'd think I would have by now. Even when *I* bottomed, and you know what a control freak I am, I was never all *that* bad about it.

I think the fact is most people don't clock in at these wild poles but somewhere between. Every top has to decide whether any given bottom is too much of a pain in the ass to be worth their good qualities, it's very simple and basic human relations, like you said, bb.

 

[bridgeburner]

I think for people like that it's not really about power in the sense that we pervs think about it. It's about getting exactly what they want but has nothing to do with making someone else do it. There's no rush from being served only the normal rush of getting your itch satisfied.

If that makes any sense at all.

I've known a couple guys who were like that. They were really bossy but not in a dominating way. More in a needy, nit-picky way that I found incredibly annoying. I get hot for a guy who wants to tell ME what to do but that's a different thing entirely. Or perhaps it's only different in my own mind.

I've never had sex with a woman so can't comment on the styles of past fem-lovers, but I've known women who struck me as being that same type.


-B

 

[Pure]

Hi Bridgeburner,

You said, as below, and you make some good points:

Okay, so what you're saying is this person despite all actions to the contrary really IS a submissive but is fighting it? It's possible, but I don't know that I buy it.

I think the problem is not that this person is a submissive in denial but that this person fetishizes the role of sexual bottom and may not be a submissive at all.

"It gets me off for you to tie me just this way, say just these things and touch me in exactly this manner."

That is not a person giving up control or power. That is someone who wants to experience the trappings of powerlessness in a specifically dictated way that is under his or her own direction. There's no submission in that.

That's an excellent analysis, IMO. Fetishism is far more common that admitted (something about the 'romance' of 'doms' and 'subs'). And fetishist are precise in their requirements.

To answer your first question. I don't use the terms 'dominant' and 'submissive' since they're too vague. Also I'm not comfortable saying "X really is a sub." as if it's like being a manic depressive, or a diabetic (in the blood). But yes, I'm assuming for the sake of this discussion that, in some way, and in statements the person indicates his/her nontrivial desire to be under the control of the master/mistress; that there is a good faith intent to 'surrender power', to use a common term.

However let's just say that desire, though deep and real, is not unalloyed, or alone. This bottom in fact makes lots of efforts, continually, to control (determine what the two of them do). So in that sense s/he also has desires for control, besides desires to surrender power.

As I said in an earlier posting, the cases where the person is simply at the wrong place, mislabeled (or self mislabeled) are NOT ones that are of much interest to discuss. They can simply be given a re-direction or 'send off'.

 

[sincerely_helene]

Post,
Delete

Post,
Delete

Post,
Delete.

 

[h_i_s]

In THIS D/s relationship 'obedience' is one of the basic foundations of the relationship.
Topping from the bottom is not tolerated .... at all.

Master appreciates and always conciders my opinions, and desires and i am free to express them openly. There is a BIG difference between relaying my desires to Him vs. manipulating, or scheming in order to 'stear Him' into forfilling my 'wants'. The difference would be felt through the lashes of His braided leather belt upon my submissive bare ass.

¸,ø¤º°sinn0cent1°º¤ø,¸ (proudly owned by, and devoted to INSIDEYOURMIND)

 

[TaintedB]

Originally posted by Pure
I see that some who style themselves 'subs' have the most detailed 'program' that they want enacted. If they're paying the tab, the pro can service and enact that program for cash. NP.

BUT what should a Master do with someone professing that s/he is 'subordinate', that s/hehas given up power (to the Master) BUT who makes serious, ongoing efforts to control? (through any number of possible manipulations, 'suggestions.' etc.)

I don't see this just as the old question what to do with a 'smart ass' (who may be a pussycat underneath) I mean a real control freak even if they don't have a sassy 'attitude.' Is the condition curable?

Ah, something I have first hand experience with! Ok, let me try to distill down what I've learned in the school of hard knocks about this subject.

Basically, it depends on two things. (Guess which two and you'll probably be right! ) Ok, first, the sub has to really be a sub at heart and, despite whatever way she or he behaves, really want to obey, not like the controlling attitude, etc. In other words, the sub, if this hasn't already been done, has to soul search and think about what they really need and want irregardless of the way they act. The actions, however opposite of the way a sub "should" act they seem to be, are surface things. They are mutable as long as the what's on the inside is submissive.

Second, the dominant has to have the experience, will, and know-how needed to, with the sub's help, defeat that controlling attitude. It's mostly the dominant's job, in my opinion, to enact this change, as it's the dominant's job to control his or her sub in general.

Dominants fix something like this using a lot of different approaches, and these approaches depend a lot on the sub's personality and what works best with that person. If the sub is smart and also introspective (ie has an observing ego), you do a lot of talking. Punishments that mean something to that sub, that are genuine punishments to be enacted after the behavior, also help, but the dom has to have a clue and not use any sick and anti-productive punishments like abandonment or pulling away from the sub emotionally: all those stupid ploys do is generate more distrust and fear of the dominant, and with good reason!

Finally, both partners have to have a lot of patience, commitment and love. Something like this takes a long time to get a grip on, perhaps years, as it's usually a very ingrained way of behaving, something the sub has done most of her life to cope with the world successfully and it's not going to change at the snap of a finger.