What the Hale: An Interview with Denis Hale

[Angeline]

Once upon a time a new poet submitted some poems at Literotica. The people who read new poem submissions immediately went crazy for his writing, so of course we dragged him to the forum. Between the wily ways of Wicked Eve and other assorted poets we convinced him to stay and write with us for years. And we knew this guy as denis hale.

We were all a'twitter (in those pre-Twitter days) because nice as denis is (and he is a really nice man), his poetry is astonishing. Astounding. If you read a denis hale poem you will, by its end, feel like you just got off a big old roller coaster. The climbs and drops and twists and turns go so fast and are so neatly tied together, you may be left panting. I (for once) am not exaggerating! And when he's in a mood to move more slowly or be more elegiac you'll still be stunned. Just read the poems and you will see for yourself.

In addition to being a dedicated and prolific writer, denis has been persistent in submitting his poetry for publication in both the digital and print worlds. That has really worked out for him because his poetry has appeared in journals such as Exquisite Corpse, The Evergreen Review, Mannequin Envy, PANK, Stirring, Thieves Jargon, Zygote in my Coffee, and many (many!) more.

Denis has also published two books of poetry. His first, Fare, is a chapbook published by Redneck Press in 2012.

Denis' second book, Grand Mal, was published in 2012 by Rebel Satori Press. At 130 pages it's one meaty collection. You can check it out and order a copy of it at Amazon.

Now that you're ready to explore his poetry you will discover that denis' user page here at Lit has only two poems on it. Uh oh. You'll even be hard pressed to find much of his work here on the forum, although if you do an advanced search you might find some fine erotica (inspired by our own lovely Tristesse) here. And guess what? The guy writes glosas, too!

But if you want to find a whole lotta denis, you need to take a little detour from Lit World. We've got you covered on that: just follow the links below and get ready to be bowled over!

Denis (who I will now out as an unrepentant reader who knows a lot about poetry) will often sneak a form poem by you, even if he does switch up some rules to make it his own. Check out The All About Moi Ghazal, published by elimae in 2011.

Or how about the short but lovely Gandy Dancer, published in the Thrush Poetry Journal in 2012.

Or maybe you'd like some churnin burnin anti-poetry? In that case read Float Like An Asterisk, Sting Like A Mote, published by Metazen in 2011.

Three of Denis' more recent poems appear in Cease, Cow. I especially like his Graced by the Anti Lottery @ the North Austin Luby’s, but they're all good and can this guy rock a title or what?

And yes Virginia, we are referring to him as denis hale here because while we love free speech this is Lit and we also love preserving some shred of privacy.

So denis, welcome back to your old stomping grounds and thank you so much for agreeing to this inquisition! We'll try to make it as painless (and even fun) as possible. I'd like to start off by asking you about Grand Mal. Where did those poems come from? Are they older poems? Newer poems? A mix? How did you conceive of them as a book, how did you determine their order in the book and how did the publication process go?

 

[champagne1982]

I first encountered denis via perks and o' my. LOL I swear that girl was a version of PoBo Fatal Attraction. But really, I understood and I love the man's writing as well.

I'm off and running away now after spending a welcome hour reading a bit of his writing and remembering what I seriously love about this musical, quirky poet. Will formulate a coherent question later this weekend since I'm off work and will have time to savour more of the tasty nibbles I can find via those links Angeline so graciously has provided.

Welcome back Mr. Hale.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

Described as a "shape shifter" poet and it fits him like a glove. I've loved his writing since I dared walk these hallowed halls mingling with talent that both inspired and scared me.

My question to you denis hale is when and how did you start to write poetry? Also why did you fly away?

 

[denis hale]

Hello All,

I'm here!


Ask me anything ... about poetry ...


within reason



Seriously, thanks so much, Ange, for inviting me.


Hi, Carrie!



Ange, as far as the book Grand Mal goes -- it is definitely an admixture of older poems, and newer stuff. Quite a few of the poems in the 2nd section of the book (including the poem, "Fare") were born on Literotica. So, thanks, Lit!!

But there's newer stuff in Grand Mal as well -- poems that were written as late as 2011.

I definitely had the title of the book in mind -- before there even was a book.

And I simply held onto that title, as the manuscript went through its changes.


A long and winding road Grand Mal had -- to publication.


The book was accepted by one publisher, in 2006, and two years went by, before that publisher went bankrupt and canceled its outstanding contracts, mine included. It took me two years to find another publisher -- and two years beyond that, for the book to finally see print.

I was able to keep revising the manuscript during all this time -- so I'd say, in the long run, the adversity was more or less worth it.

That is -- the book is better off for the time it took, to get published. IMO

 

[denis hale]

Oh yes,

and Hi, Tess!



I've actually been writing poems and songs since the early 90's.


But I got serious with the poetry, in about '03.



And I never totally left Lit.


I've posted a few times -- relatively recently !

 

[butters]

hello!

what's the weirdest place you've ever written or composed a poem?

did the place or time ever reflect in the write?

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Hi Denis you were just leaving as I was stumbling in through the door! Although we've met again recently on FB
When did you first start writing and were there any incidents in your life that made you want to write? Who from the past would you like to sit down and 'pick their brains'?

 

[denis hale]

what's the ...

weirdest place I ever composed a poem?


I scrawled the first draft of that Metazen poem Angeline cited ("Float Like an Asterisk, sting Like a Mote") in the "continental breakfast area" of a motel in Missoula, Montana.

Sorry, that's not really a very unusual locale, -- but the content of the poem definitely did end up "reflecting the milieu." Although it took awhile to revise that poem into something resembling coherence.

And it could be argued that I never did succeed, in that regard!






Annie,


Hello.


I've always been interested in writing -- since I was a little tike.


It wasn't until I attended an Intro to Poetry class at Portland State University in the mid 80's, however -- that I got bit by "the bug." I didn't start to actually submit poems for publication consideration until 5 or 6 years after that.

And I had no success as a writer, early on. nada ... zip


It wasn't until 1999 that I published my first poem.


A real late bloomer, I suppose.


As far as the second part of your question:

I would love to hang out with Gregory Corso for a couple / few hours.

I know he wouldn't sit still for me "picking his brain" however; I'm pretty sure I would need contribute in large part to the intellectual exchange -- or Gregory C. would blow me off, in a heartbeat.

 

[Angeline]

I'm here!


Ask me anything ... about poetry ...


within reason



Seriously, thanks so much, Ange, for inviting me.


Hi, Carrie!



Ange, as far as the book Grand Mal goes -- it is definitely an admixture of older poems, and newer stuff. Quite a few of the poems in the 2nd section of the book (including the poem, "Fare") were born on Literotica. So, thanks, Lit!!

But there's newer stuff in Grand Mal as well -- poems that were written as late as 2011.

I definitely had the title of the book in mind -- before there even was a book.

And I simply held onto that title, as the manuscript went through its changes.


A long and winding road Grand Mal had -- to publication.


The book was accepted by one publisher, in 2006, and two years went by, before that publisher went bankrupt and canceled its outstanding contracts, mine included. It took me two years to find another publisher -- and two years beyond that, for the book to finally see print.

I was able to keep revising the manuscript during all this time -- so I'd say, in the long run, the adversity was more or less worth it.

That is -- the book is better off for the time it took, to get published. IMO

Yay you did it and I'm glad you're here!

So how soon up to the time of publication were you revising those poems? And how was your publisher about that? Was part of that two-year process after your first contract was canceled as much about finding the right publisher as "a publisher"? I'm asking because I've often thought that getting published anywhere is really a matter of finding the place that likes the way one writes. Well also you need to be good, but you know what I mean!

And now that Grand Mal has been out for a while, would you do anything else to any of the poems if you could? I think I'm really asking how you know when a poem is finished...

Also, how do you come up with these titles? I read somewhere that you have a huge file of titles, so do you just write it down when you hear something promising or you get a title idea, knowing you'll be able to use it at some point? You're one of those guys who always has a notebook, right?

Yeah I got a lotta questions.

 

[denis hale]

Ange

yes, that 2-year period (after the first publisher folded) was totally about finding "a publisher." I think I went through close to thirty rejections, before Rebel Satori came through. I ended up with a good publisher, and that's all that matters.

I was still making changes to the book, up to 3 weeks before "press time."

At one point, the publisher had to e mail me and say: "No more revisions ..."


I wouldn't change any of the poems in Grand Mal today. What I might do, (and perhaps should have done) was cut the manuscript by 10 per cent.

In other words, cut about 5 poems out.


Oh well.


Too late now!



You're right, I always have the pocket spiral notebook handy.


And I do have a PC file, containing nothing but titles.


I'm a firm believer in writing "titles first" -- then the poem.

It clarifies and distills one's "content intention."


I don't do it that way every time, of course.

But yes, I'm constantly trying to invent titles -- which often end up "orphaned" -- but c'est la vie, right?

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

Hi denis, it's me again.

It fascinates me that you write your titles first.

Can you expand on this a bit.

How do you use your collection of titles?

And can you explain how this approach "clarifies and distills one's "content intention." please.

 

[denis hale]

hi Tess

Here's an example:


Today, I received some "Spam" in my e mail inbox.


I knew it was Spam, by way of the Subject Header, which read:


"My Bequest In Your Favor"



I almost deep-sixed the e mail, but did a double take, on that header.


It just struck me as an interesting title for a poem -- as yet, unwritten, or even conceptualized. So, I had no choice, really, but to incorporate it in my Titles file.


Later, when I'm trying to write something, I'll meditate on those five words:


My ... Bequest ... In Your Favor


It sounds like a smith peter title, right? an SP trope.


What might the words really mean?


A Will and Testament?


A mixed blessing of some sort?


In other words, I will then try to tailor the poem (in as free-flowing a way as possible) -- to "match up" with the title. Right off the bat, this creates a focus, albeit tenuous, and elusive -- as all writing in the "inspiration phase," or first draft phase is. So, by "clarification of content intention" -- I mean, 1) landing on something to write about -- by way of a fascinating title; and 2) letting what I imagine that title to mean dictate, at least in the early stages of the writing, the direction, or shape the poem might take.


I hope this makes a bit of sense. somewhat?


I suppose it is not unlike the fiction writer who imagines his/her story ending first, -- and then builds the rest of the narrative to rise to the level of the imagined ending.

 

[todski28]

Hey, I am new to poetry in general let alone here and I was wondering how much thought you put into enjambing your lines, it seems like you put a lot of care into where and how you break your lines. Angeline said it's like a rollercoaster, I agree, but it is one hell of a ride.

What type of education do you have, what attracted you to poetry, was there a catalyst or was it a passing interest that turned into a passion?

 

[butters]

Hello, again

We know most poets will skin the bleakest of memories for a poem, but are there places you've refused - or been unable - to go to because it's just too painful? On the flip-side, are there beautiful head-spaces you'll not trespass on either in case you sully them or fail to convey their amazing nature?

How much do you limit yourself to writing only 'what you know'?

How do you dream?

When your interview is over, would you consider throwing out a challenge using one of your titles as prompt?

 

[denis hale]

hello

todski, nice to meet you!


With line breaks, sometimes I count syllables,
but mostly it's a matter of feel. A visual, and rhythmic thing.

I will try to always break a line on an action verb, or also
on any word that's unique, visually and aurally.


Here's an example, from a poem I'm working on currently:


" ... not even a ten dollar scratcher, to offset petrol, Skittles taste
"the rainbow," goom balls, six packs of tube socks, plastic sacks
of rutabagas ... "


The word "taste" is a great place to break the line.
And "plastic sacks" speaks for itself.


and

"of rutabagas"


ends the stanza -- so that's an easy choice there.



I have a pretty generic education -- Bachelor's Degree in History.

But it was a class in poetry -- taken at Portland State University -- that really got me into writing it. There was a great teacher there, named Horowitz, as I recall, -- and he really translated his own passion for the art to his students. Good on him!




Hi butters!


Yes, there are certainly aspects of my experience that are "unsayable " -- whether in terms of sublimity, or the flip side -- pathos.

I like fearlessness in poetry, but there are limits.


It's the old "too much information" constraint. In other words, does the reader really need to hear this stuff? One always has to be looking out for the reader!

Some topics, one realizes, might be better served in essay form, or tucked within a piece of hyper fiction somewhere -- under a pseudonym.


In poetry, it's not really necessary to follow the "write what you know" doctrine. Most of the time, anyway. Imagination and musicality hold sway.

Thank god.


I dream like most other people, I think.

In terms of "daydreaming" -- I might engage in the activity a little more often than might be advised.

Since we know reality must always be attended to! ugh



And yes, I would be more than happy to use one of my titles as a prompt here.


That's a great idea!

 

[Angeline]

A few more questions about Grand Mal. When you were doing all that revising, how much of it was deciding in which order to put the poems? Was that significant to you--that they be in a certain order. Do you feel that there is a story that comes across from reading them in order or are they grouped in some other way? (That process fascinates me.)

I also want to know about your writing process. Do you write every day? Do you write in longhand or at a computer? Do you take some time between drafts to revise? How soon do you know a poem is good enough to submit somewhere--like what is your own criteria for that?

Oh and I am totally ripping off your title file idea. I already have my first one squirreled away.

 

[denis hale]

about Grand Mal, and process

Most definitely, 80 % of revision of a manuscript has to do with ordering the poems. It is somewhat of a maddening, but vital process.


With Grand Mal, I used section header epigraphs -- taken from the Epilepsy Foundation's website -- which cleanly organize the material into 4 sections.

So with this book, I knew -- that certain poems naturally belonged in certain sections, etc.

Yet within those sections, I was constantly "swapping out" older poems for new ones, and experimenting with the ordering, within sections. The iterations were endless, and I was constantly second-guessing myself.

For the first half of Section 1, I tried to have the poems create a kind of "dialogue" -- i.e. -- a nihilistic poem "answered" by a poem with more hope, or humor in it, etc. Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, etc. And that actually worked out okay, I think. For a little while.

I also tried to start and end each section on a strong note.


I believe the way the material is organized in a poetry manuscript is of crucial importance, yes, yes. Was it Frost who said something like:

"There's two poems... There's the first poem in your book -- and then the whole rest of the book is your second poem ..." etc.

I'm paraphrasing badly, there.

Of course, a poetry collection need not be divided into sections.

But still, one must be conscious of ordering, of grouping. One must try to string along a narrative, using the poems themselves. Indeed.


As to the second part of your question:


I do not write every day.


But I'm taking notes (mental notes, at the very least) part of every day.


I usually write in longhand first -- then computer.


But sometimes I compose directly into the computer -- especially fragments, and shorter stuff.

I will e mail myself fragments of poems all the time. That little gimmick will engage the right brain. Try it!


As far as knowing if a poem is good enough: The writer never knows that, IMO


All you can do is give it the college try -- and put it out there.


A rejection of the poem by an editor is a 95% clear hint-- that the poem needs work ... However, I have had poems rejected by one, or a few, editor(s) that found acceptance elsewhere -- without revision. But that is a rare occurrence. A rejection usually means there are problems with the poem. If these problems get to be too daunting -- that is, the rejections pile up, in spite of revisions, -- I will shit-can the poem. Move on to something new. Something borrowed, something blue!


That's so cool, about your own Title file! May it grow, exponentially

 

[Angeline]

This is just wonderful information you are sharing.

When I read what you said about the title file, I realized what a smart idea it is because there are always little phrases just floating by in the endless info stream directed at us. And when the file gets crazy unwieldy, I can say it's that denis guy's fault!

Did you think you'd end up a poet? Was there a steady pull toward it once you took that course? Do you still write fiction as well as poetry or are you more focused on poems for now?

 

[denis hale]

Ange

watch out!

Those titles will pile up!


Yeah, I suppose the poetry has always been pulling me.

And that's not necessarily a copasetic scenario!


I heard Gregory Corso on a You Tube interview say:


"The poet chooses his fate ..."


So true.


Part of what he means, I think -- is that the poems inside you will find expression, through you -- whether you choose to write them or not.

Better to choose to at least try to write them, methinks!


And yes, I am definitely a frustrated fiction writer, Angeline.


I have so much love for the short story, in particular.


I try to write stories, but it's so damned hard.


One has to have a long attention span -- to write fiction.


Gotta take the long view.


Not sure if it's in me or not.


But I will keep trying.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

Here's an example:


Today, I received some "Spam" in my e mail inbox.


I knew it was Spam, by way of the Subject Header, which read:


"My Bequest In Your Favor"



I almost deep-sixed the e mail, but did a double take, on that header.


It just struck me as an interesting title for a poem -- as yet, unwritten, or even conceptualized. So, I had no choice, really, but to incorporate it in my Titles file.


Later, when I'm trying to write something, I'll meditate on those five words:


My ... Bequest ... In Your Favor


It sounds like a smith peter title, right? an SP trope.


What might the words really mean?


A Will and Testament?


A mixed blessing of some sort?


In other words, I will then try to tailor the poem (in as free-flowing a way as possible) -- to "match up" with the title. Right off the bat, this creates a focus, albeit tenuous, and elusive -- as all writing in the "inspiration phase," or first draft phase is. So, by "clarification of content intention" -- I mean, 1) landing on something to write about -- by way of a fascinating title; and 2) letting what I imagine that title to mean dictate, at least in the early stages of the writing, the direction, or shape the poem might take.


I hope this makes a bit of sense. somewhat?

Very much so and most certanly will cause me to revise my approach to writing.

I suppose it is not unlike the fiction writer who imagines his/her story ending first, -- and then builds the rest of the narrative to rise to the level of the imagined ending.

Thank you for this reply and all your other responses. I so agree with Ange here......

This is just wonderful information you are sharing.

When I read what you said about the title file, I realized what a smart idea it is because there are always little phrases just floating by in the endless info stream directed at us.

I already have a file but always saw them as waiting to be used in a poem, part of it when it could be a title. Mine eyes hath been open-ed.

 

[Angeline]

Denis, I would love to talk about your influences, maybe starting with Gregory Corso. What is it about him and his poetry that appeals to you? I see an operatic quality in the way he writes, myself. Who else has influenced you and why? I know that can be a huge question (it is for me lol), so maybe the top five or so. Are they all poets or other kinds of writers or artists?

And can you talk about poets here at Lit who may have influenced you? I know we have a mutual respect for smithpeter. One of the two poems you've kept here is in memory of sp, a wonderful homage to him. What did you learn from him and his poems? Which of his poems are your favorites, ones that have stayed with you over time and what makes them special?

And on a weird side note, I recently discovered that Corso's mother--who he was reunited with shortly before he died--lived in my hometown, in fact, in the very neighborhood where I spent my wonder years. Her name didn't ring a bell when I read it but she was there when I was there, we probably passed each other on the streets. Isn't life strange and synchronous?

 

[denis hale]

that is totally trippy

about Corso's mom!

Synchronous and strange, indeed.


It's interesting that you should mention Corso and smithpeter in the same question. They are two of a kind, I think. Somewhat similar in style, and syntactical approach.

And both of them so very wildly original.

I was already deep into processing Gregory's poems, when I ran across smithpeter's work, here on Lit.

To say he blew me away, right away, would be an understatement.

I'd never read anyone like him (with the possible exception, as I said, of Corso) before, and I have not read anyone like him since. Nor is it likely I ever will. The impact smithpeter had on my own writerly ambition was immediate, and profound. In short, he showed me another way to come at the art of poetry. The economy, and insight, his amazing turns of phrase.

And there was something else, too. His own peculiar stamp on things.

Something akin to love, and it was all over his verses. No doubt.

A few of his poems that come to mind are "Simple Solar," "grand display," "a like for view" -- but really, they're all good. All of them.

What a prolific writer he was, also!


He is missed, always.



A few other writers who've influenced me include the following:

Thom Jones, Robert Stone, Denis Johnson, Barry Hannah, Thomas Lux, August Kleinzahler, Roberto Bolano, Kim Addonizio, Stephen Dobyns, Dorianne Laux, and Yusef Komunyakaa

 

[champagne1982]

Most definitely, 80 % of revision of a manuscript has to do with ordering the poems. It is somewhat of a maddening, but vital process.

I was just over on Ange's interview and my own process isn't really about in what order they should be in, but more on how do you keep them related to each other within a group. I've had a couple of series fall apart from style issues more than content. I'm never sure about how to entwine the buggers.

How do you keep your style or voice constant when you're prolific (as one must be to even produce a strong selection of poems for a chapbook, I imagine) or is that as big an issue as I think it is when I'm putting together sets of poems?

But still, one must be conscious of ordering, of grouping. One must try to string along a narrative, using the poems themselves. Indeed.

Maybe this is the answer to my question. But I'm still curious about maintaining a voice. I don't think mine is clearly developed yet and maybe it never will be.

A rejection usually means there are problems with the poem. If these problems get to be too daunting -- that is, the rejections pile up, in spite of revisions, -- I will shit-can the poem. Move on to something new. Something borrowed, something blue!

Do you cremate or simply compost?

 

[Angeline]

Here are the sp poems you mentioned so folks can read them.

grand display

a like for view

Well, can't find "simple solar" unless I go check all his alt pages (a big job!) so I will sub one of my faves of his--

Spending Time Near Her Face

Can you expand on what you mean by similarities you see in Corso and sp? Is it the freedom? The angelic qualities? I had the same reaction to sp that you did: he is just different. It is as if his poetry is shot through with light, with sunlight if you know what I mean.

You said in your poem to him--

that voice, oh the
mirth and the wisdom
and the innocence in it--
Dennis Hale, in memory of sp

That seems on the money to me.

smithpeter was very influenced by music. He loved jazz heart, but also rock and roll, a lot of soul and rhythm and blues. Yeah I wanna segue into music lol.

Do you listen to music when you write? Does music influence the way you write? Do you ever intentionally try to get specific sounds into your poems? (Clearly you did, to great effect, I think, in Gandy Dancer). Do you ever try to work musical rhythms into your poems and, if so, is that easier because you're a musician?

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Do you have to be in some sort of 'mind set' to go about looking for somewhere to publish your work? I've had so many people tell me I should (especially the quirky ones!) and I've always thought yes I'd like that but really I've no idea how or what to do and then think 'Oh well someday maybe'!