What Makes You Stop?

[Guest]

You know, what's interested me with some works I've had on the SDC or other locations where many people read and comment is how often I eventually - sometimes months later - see the grain of sense hidden in what seemed like a pointless comment from someone with nothing much to offer. It's rather fascinating - like one of those black-and-white pictures that looks like a goblet and suddenly turns into two faces. It's intriguing, and indeed so much fun that I find myself actually giving some comments more attention now than I would have before, trying to make them do that clever trick.

Shanglan

I have various experience with comments, and I've gotten so many strange ones for stories. One story I had in a group had an elderly farm woman as a character. A child in the story remarked that the woman's hands were hard and you didn't want to get spanked by her. An older gentleman in the group jumped on this, lecturing me on how arthritis and fragile skin made the hands of elderly women too soft and delicate for this. I mean, he went AFTER me.

I just sat there, stunned, thinking of my 75 year old grandmother and her work calloused hands. I'm still working on that story, but I keep circling that comment, trying to make it yield something up. I don't know why it upset that gentleman, and I am not sure why it bothers me. I suspect it is a case of conflicting experiences where I feel my own has been declared invalid and I'm just not over it.

But Aunt Edith still has calloused hands!

And I have had comments turn like yours. I've been very fortunate in having opportunities for some very good writers to read and critique my work (I won't drop names, that's bragging). One told me once to get my characters to "look out a damn window". I was put off by the remark for YEARS, and then, one day, I understood it, and I keep it in mind all the time.

 

[Owlwhisper]

.....

 

[Guest]

Most of you have responded that spelling and grammar errors can be show-stoppers, but I have to say that they don't bother me as much as they should. I see so many bizarre spellings and tangled pseudo-sentences in student essays that I have become somewhat tolerant. It's a defense mechanism, I'm sure, since I have to spend hours picking through the debris of their writing to find the hidden ideas. Because of this tolerance, I'm slower to abandon stories with errors that aren't too numerous or outrageous.

I've three teacher friends who have similar tolerances. One draws the line at sparkly dust used to "dress up" a report, though.

I suppose if you can tolerate something, it's great. I have such limited tolerance for everything, I guess. I'm weak

 

[BlackShanglan]

I have various experience with comments, and I've gotten so many strange ones for stories. One story I had in a group had an elderly farm woman as a character. A child in the story remarked that the woman's hands were hard and you didn't want to get spanked by her. An older gentleman in the group jumped on this, lecturing me on how arthritis and fragile skin made the hands of elderly women too soft and delicate for this. I mean, he went AFTER me.

Sometimes people do have have quite bizarre personal pecadillos. That sounds like one. The nice thing there is that you quite easily verify that the commenter is factually incorrect; you only have to visit your aunt. From there, I suppose that one could work toward what about that image might so have bothered him - he has personal reasons to strongly resist any non-nurturing, unpleasant image of an older woman? - but given the obvious factual contradiction, it's almost certain to be a very personal reason that won't really apply to many people. When that's the issue, I think the writer is (for once!) justified in shrugging and saying, "Eh. Strange reader."

 

[dr_mabeuse]

You know, what's interested me with some works I've had on the SDC or other locations where many people read and comment is how often I eventually - sometimes months later - see the grain of sense hidden in what seemed like a pointless comment from someone with nothing much to offer. It's rather fascinating - like one of those black-and-white pictures that looks like a goblet and suddenly turns into two faces. It's intriguing, and indeed so much fun that I find myself actually giving some comments more attention now than I would have before, trying to make them do that clever trick.

Shanglan

I know what you mean. Critiquing stories is an art to itself with its own rules and rewards. I've always thought that it's an essential tool, because if you can't say what's wrong with someone else's story, how are you going to know what's wrong with your own?

I'm aware, though, that there are tons of great writers who can't critique at all. They have the talent, but they don't really know how it works. It's like what they say about never studying with a genius. His skill comes so easily to him that he can't explain how he does it and he can't teach you anything. What you want is like a second-rate artist as a teacher, someone who's had to struggle to learn every bit he knows. Those are the best teachers, and I think they make the best critics.

 

[Owlwhisper]

.....

 

[elsol]

That brings me to another question -- how valid is it to "blame the reader"? I've heard it said to me the phrase "You just don't get it" when I have made comment on a story. Is that a valid response from an author or an evasion of authorial responsibility to communicate with a reader?

I'm writing for individuals who get pleasure from reading... the kind of person (like myself) who calls in sick when their favorite writer's new book hits the stores. It's the idea of mixing the pleasure of sex with the mental pleasure that reading brings us.

If what the reader wants is just the pleasure of sex; I'm sure there's other writers here for them, even other stories of mine.

I find that usually the best way for me to go is to layer the story to the extent that a stroke reader gets their fun and never 'has to' notice there's something else on the page. I find it adds even more to the pleasure of a reader who does get it... kinda like that shared moment of humor at the dinner table when you make eye-contact with someone.

I don't want everyone to GET IT... I want most people to enjoy it... and I want a few people to believe I'm talking directly to them, about them, for them, that I'm putting something into words which they, themselves, don't know how to put down in black & white.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[Stella_Omega]

I like that, ElSol

 

[elsol]

You know, what's interested me with some works I've had on the SDC or other locations where many people read and comment is how often I eventually - sometimes months later - see the grain of sense hidden in what seemed like a pointless comment from someone with nothing much to offer. It's rather fascinating - like one of those black-and-white pictures that looks like a goblet and suddenly turns into two faces. It's intriguing, and indeed so much fun that I find myself actually giving some comments more attention now than I would have before, trying to make them do that clever trick.

Shanglan

The most useful stuff from online people have come from the assholes... they're so desperate to find something to slam you for that occassionaly they put down something that you mind clicks on.

Only one person who was trying to help has ever been useful to me... the rest came from randomn comments thrown in by people almost as an afterthought.

It's why I see all feedback as data that I have to analyze and draw conclusions about WHY the person thought that.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[Guest]

The most useful stuff from online people have come from the assholes... they're so desperate to find something to slam you for that occassionaly they put down something that you mind clicks on.

Only one person who was trying to help has ever been useful to me... the rest came from randomn comments thrown in by people almost as an afterthought.

It's why I see all feedback as data that I have to analyze and draw conclusions about WHY the person thought that.

Sincerely,
ElSol

Hehheh, now there's wisdom

I have a hard time getting through the "ouch" to see the worth of a hard or nastily phrased comment. I mean, even nicely phrased critique can sting, so when someone throws a rock, my instinct is to duck, not check the rock for secret messages.

But the random comments idea is interesting. If only I could get people to MAKE more comments...I must be inspiring a lot of back clicking on one story, because the "views" go up but nothing else does. If it isn't the story itself, it's the weird format that leaves a single line on the last page.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Hehheh, now there's wisdom

I have a hard time getting through the "ouch" to see the worth of a hard or nastily phrased comment. I mean, even nicely phrased critique can sting, so when someone throws a rock, my instinct is to duck, not check the rock for secret messages.

But the random comments idea is interesting. If only I could get people to MAKE more comments...I must be inspiring a lot of back clicking on one story, because the "views" go up but nothing else does. If it isn't the story itself, it's the weird format that leaves a single line on the last page.

Yeah, the formatting thing- one more problem to throw at a poor beleaguered smut writer!
I've edited chapters especially for lit- scrunching a paragraph or two or delteing a line, just to make sure i don't end up with an orphan line on it's own page

 

[Guest]

Yeah, the formatting thing- one more problem to throw at a poor beleaguered smut writer!
I've edited chapters especially for lit- scrunching a paragraph or two or delteing a line, just to make sure i don't end up with an orphan line on it's own page

yeah, I have to do that in an edit -- am I correct that if I resubmit the story with the word "EDIT" in the title, they will replace the current text with the new text and I won't lose any votes or comments?

 

[Owlwhisper]

.....

 

[3113]

My experience with conformity as always been of the 'or else' variety. And since me is the only thing I've had for most of my life, I tend to raise fur and hiss when told to conform. Why should I give up what I value most simply to belong?

There are two kinds of workshopping. Informal Peer and Formal Peer. Informal is where you and a bunch of writer friends meet every two weeks or once a month, read each others stuff and comment. Formal Peer is where you go to that 6-10 week intense workshop where not only other writers comment but there's some sort of professional writer/teacher. All you think about, day in and day out, is writing.

Both have the pluses and minuses. The informal is likely to be friendly, and you're not going to get that "conform" vibe where every sentence is scrutenized. But you're faced with the fact that some of your buddies might not be good writers...might not be meant to be writers at all. That they really don't know how to help you be a better writer. The formal is where you get more of that "lock step" that can make a person excellent in sentence structure, but they may stop taking wild chances, become too careful and precious.

So what are the benefits? Well, the biggest benefit is learning, yourself how to critique so that you can see you OWN problems in a story. Writers can rarely see the forest for the trees. But if we put that story away in a drawer and come back to it later, we can often see problems we missed when we were too close to it. And workshoping trains us to see those. We can edit the story better, communicate better, and be more likely to get the story out there. Whether up here on Lit or in bookstores.

And then we have a point that Malichite (I think) made: "can't-break-the-rules-till-you-know-them."

This is where we get to your point about "conformity." Yes, the workshops are making you "conform." But not like you think. A good writers workshop should be like an art class which teaches you how to draw picture perfect. You don't start with modern art, splattering paint on the canvass--because you don't know what you're doing there or why; you start with lessons in perspective, in anatomy. You learn, as Piccasso and Pollack learned and knew, how to paint almost photo perfect if you wish.

Now you know the rules. Now you can break them.

I'm pretty familiar with comic books. During the nineties, a lot of artists became popular who had taught themselves to draw merely by copying other comic book artists. This new crop could not draw! Not to save their life. Anatomy was ridiculous, perspective was non-existent. The art was so absurd that people in the know made cruel fun of it. These artists of the moment made a lot of money, invested it badly, came crashing down. Their fans grew up and vanished, new fans moved onto the next artist of the moment.

The artists left standing were those who knew how to draw...and broke the rules in remarkable ways to accent that. They weren't sloppy or stupid or thoughtless. They experimented with a purpose in mind. And what they created were masterpieces that are still being reprinted.

Workshopping is not for everyone, and you CAN teach yourself how to draw. But I don't think workshopping is going to kill creativity unless all you do is go to workshops, year after year. Eventually, you know how to draw. And that's when the creativity, far from being destroyed, can really soar. Because, like a engineer or scientist, you've learned all the secret tricks--you know how to really play with them. You don't have to re-invent the wheel in order to create a better wheel.

We each need to find our own way to learn our craft, and you might well be far beyond anything workshops can teach you. But it is a craft, and outside of prodigies, we do need a little guidance and some insight into trade secrets now and then. I wish more new, amature writers, not less, would take a workshop. Just as I wish more, not less, comic book artists would take art classes first...and learn their anatomy.

 

[3113]

yeah, I have to do that in an edit -- am I correct that if I resubmit the story with the word "EDIT" in the title, they will replace the current text with the new text and I won't lose any votes or comments?

Yep. Works like a charm. Just put a dash and "Edit" in the title. So....
Title: Pretty as a Picture
Edited: Pretty as a Picture--EDITED

Don't forget to fill everything else in as well--category, tag line, key words, etc. Takes a few days for the new, edited version to replace the old version.

 

[Guest]

There are two kinds of workshopping...

We each need to find our own way to learn our craft, and you might well be far beyond anything workshops can teach you. But it is a craft, and outside of prodigies, we do need a little guidance and some insight into trade secrets now and then. I wish more new, amature writers, not less, would take a workshop. Just as I wish more, not less, comic book artists would take art classes first...and learn their anatomy.

You are officially amongst those here whom I adore 3113. Officially

 

[3113]

You are officially amongst those here whom I adore 3113. Officially

Aw, shucks.

 

[Guest]

For Review -- Comments Requested

Conversation has turned here, and now I've a NEW request Please apply your collective wisdom to helping me improve and update the following two pieces. They are both something I compiled for some workshops and a writing group I ran for a while.

How do I critique someone else’s work?

Critiquing someone else’s writing can be daunting. What do you say? How do you avoid hurting feelings? How do you make your comments worthwhile?

1) Remember that the goal of every writer is to communicate to a reader. You can already look at a work from that perspective – how successful was the writer in communicating his or her ideas to you? What parts of the writing stick in your memory after reading? What puzzled you? What pleased you?

2) Educate yourself in a greater understanding of the written word. There are many thousands of books written for writers that discuss the seemingly complicated aspects of characterization, structure, theme, and plot. It isn’t as hard to understand as it might seem, and you might find you only lack the vocabulary, not the knowledge.

3) Be specific. Read the piece more than once and mark the things that puzzled or bothered you. Mark things you like, too. If you have a general comment, be able to give specific examples from the writing. When you are reading, check problems in reference material and bring the references. A writer can give more attention and thought to a specific, focused problem than to some nebulous “feeling” reported by a reader. A negative comment, phrased in specific terms and focused on a particular problem, is much more helpful and more likely to be accepted well than something vague or amorphously positive.

4) Don’t over praise or praise vaguely. Keep your comments specific and clear. This makes your comments useful. Constant praise often sounds false to a writer. You will also lose credibility as a reader if you issue only praise. Writers tend to be very aware of problems in their work and will doubt your word if you have nothing but praise. However, praising particular lines, characters, word choices, etc., will help a writer see his or her strengths.

5) Balance your comments. For every negative you have, find a positive. If you simply didn’t like a piece at all, pick one problem you found to mention, and leave the rest. And, as with anything, phrase your comments in an impersonal manner. Never use insulting or vulgar phrases. Avoid “being clever” or displaying sarcasm. When all else fails you, saying “I couldn’t appreciate the piece” can be enough.

Last, keep yourself emotionally separate from your comments. It is the writer’s work, in the end. He or she must sort through all the comments made and pick those that can be used. Don’t argue your point of view on a piece and accept that others – including the author – may disagree. Being right isn’t important. Offering a useful, honest opinion is!

How to I handle other people’s critiques of my work?

If giving a critique is hard, accepting critique can be terrifying. How can you balance what you see in your work with what other people say? How do you deal with hearing negative comments? And how do you make use of what you hear?

1) The goal of every writer is to communicate to a reader. When you were writing, you were trying to talk to someone else. You may have had a specific person in mind. That specific person probably won’t be reading and commenting on your piece. If you did your job as a writer, your writing should be accessible to almost anyone. If it isn’t, that itself may be useful information.

2) Divorce yourself from your written piece. You are not your writing, even though it can feel just like that. You may never fully break the emotional tie to what you write, but you can distance yourself. Once you offer a piece, you are sending it into the world to stand on its own or fall flat. If you feel shaky, cultivate a single person as Your Reader, someone who is aware of your feelings for your more fragile and personal pieces. Don’t expect a group to know how personal a piece is, or how strongly you feel about it. And never, never, never reveal or discuss a piece that isn’t finished!

3) Never ask for comments you don’t want. Access your motives in asking for critique. Writing can fill you with self-doubt and make you hungry for praise. Solitude can blind you to your writing’s problems. Negative critiques can make you unreasonably angry or hurt. Be honest with yourself – how will negative comments affect you?

4) Keep creative control. Asking for comments does not commit you to responding to or using every single one. All the comments were offered in good faith, but they may not all be equally useful. Be willing to experiment, but remember that, in the end, you are the writer and you must make the decisions about what and how you do and do not want to write.

5) Compare comments. Everyone who reads your work will have an opinion. Before you try to act on all of them, look them over. Is some particular comment showing up more than once? Are comments tending toward a specific aspect of your work, like characterization or word choice? These are the comments to study first. When multiple people see the same problem, it is probably more than a matter of opinion.

6) Ask questions. You know your problem areas. Help the people who are commenting to help you. Ask specific, focused questions to which they can make specific answers. Direct attention to trouble areas in your work.

Last, listen carefully! If you find yourself defending or explaining your writing, then perhaps you aren’t ready for a critique or you are taking the comments on the work as comments about yourself. In review and workshops, it is the readers who should talk – the writer should listen. The writing should speak for itself. If you have trouble making yourself listen, take notes. Make the most of the comments you get

 

[rgraham666]

Work shopping and extensive critiquing won't work for me.

You have to remember, I'm rather damaged by a long and nearly fatal bout with mental illness.

So the intensive methods mentioned here will no more help me with writing than sending a polio victim to Parris Island will help them with walking. It's too much and going to do more damage than good.

I do have people who critique my work. I listen carefully to them. I don't always follow their advice, but I do listen and consider for future work.

There is one person who has started heavily critiquing my stuff. And I don't send it to them anymore. When they quibble with practically every line I write my brain shut down. I don't hear, "This could be better." I hear, "This really sucks."

Which doesn't do me any good at all.

 

[Guest]

Work shopping and extensive critiquing won't work for me.

You have to remember, I'm rather damaged by a long and nearly fatal bout with mental illness...

There is one person who has started heavily critiquing my stuff. And I don't send it to them anymore. When they quibble with practically every line I write my brain shut down. I don't hear, "This could be better." I hear, "This really sucks."

Which doesn't do me any good at all.

No, I didn' t know that. Workshops are NOT for every writer. Some writers never attend them, and that's no sin. Others go to them when they want, like I do, to find someone to look at a manuscript without more than the usual bias. And some people get addicted to workshops and never manage to finish anything.

 

[zeb1094]

Oh I found it....

 

[Guest]

Oh I found it....

I hunted up and down for this thing! I even used the search! function, which gave me a blank look. Feh. It's just like life in my house -- I can find everything that ABG is looking for, but he has to find my glasses FIRST...

Thanks Zeb!

Should I cross post the threat I started back here and let it die, or just let it go?

 

[zeb1094]

I hunted up and down for this thing! I even used the search! function, which gave me a blank look. Feh. It's just like life in my house -- I can find everything that ABG is looking for, but he has to find my glasses FIRST...

Thanks Zeb!

Should I cross post the threat I started back here and let it die, or just let it go?

It's up to you how you want to handle the two posts.

I found it by going to your profile and clicking on the link to find all threads started by you.

 

[Guest]

It's up to you how you want to handle the two posts.

I found it by going to your profile and clicking on the link to find all threads started by you.

d'uh!

Never even thought of that.

Oh well, I'll let the other stand. I only feel a minimal guilt about it...now what was it we were tearing apart here anyway?

OH yeah -- we were going over writing workshops, but here's the original post for those who don't wanna go back


My search for information and my curiousity about what makes other writers tick brings up questions all the time.

Situation -- you are going through the story lists and picking something to read, just on a whim. You open a file and start reading...and you slam up against something that makes you stop reading.

What is it that stops you? What can a writer do to make you just close the file and look elsewhere? Will you skip a story because of its title or description? Are there words, phrases, or typical sorts of writing that will make you shrug and move on? Do you boggle on typos, wince at poor grammar, or throw up your hands at cliches and repetitive phrases?

Or are you the hardy soul that will persevere through to the end, reading every word no matter how much it hurts? Is it ever worth it? Are you ever pleasantly surprised, or does a story's end usually match up with its beginning?

We covered the grammar/spelling thing, and the lack of character development, plot, and so forth. Factual mistakes/rare occurances insufficiently documented, writing for the audience...

How about this -- how many of you have started reading only to hit a line that was so unintentionally funny or bizarre that you stopped reading? (I've done that one recently -- I TRIED to keep reading, but I knew there would be more of those). And can you post examples? (don't link to the story. That would be cruel).

 

[Guest]

d'uh!
(don't link to the story. That would be cruel).

No no no... by all means, link to the story. I need something to laugh at today. Apparently, so does Zeb... *hugs him* So let's post really bad links to really bad stories.