What Makes You Stop?

[Stella_Omega]

Mmmm! I've seen comments like that. I've been lucky not to have them, but I know what you mean. I've seen many comments of many sorts, well meant and cruelly meant, but I think you're right that there is a specific and recognizable comment that fairly clearly translates as "this is how a real writer like me would have done it."

The opposite number of that, I think, is the request for advice followed by a sneeringly patronizing denigration of any critical comments, often with "you just don't get it" implied or even stated. That's the "I posted to be admired; isn't my work wonderful?" request for review. Lord, I wish people would just say that's what they want. It would save a great deal of time.

Shanglan

heh, this one hits home - I've recently been on both sides of this fence!

There are too many posts for me to really reply to every wonderful point that's been raised today.
However, I just recieved a manuscript back in the mail, from a REAL editor. I know very little else about her...
She enclosed a note;

The sex scenes are, for the most part, pretty good. Some were a bit convoluted and/or contrived, but overall I'd give the author an A for those. I personally found there to be too much internal dialogue and it was hard to follow in some places.

She complains about a runon sentence structure, that looks like grammatical arrors to her, but she says

...This is simply a writing style the author has adopted, which came into vogue in recent years and is probably here to stay. My main problem with the story itself was mantaining interest; it did not keep my attention.

On the whole, it's the kind of feedback I was hoping for. Given that I'm trying to figure out if this is worth going forward with or not, though, I wish she'd marked the MS up a bit more. I'd like to turn it into one of those paperback romances- one with a LOT of creases in the spine!

 

[Stella_Omega]

But how do you diffentiate between such comments and ones that are valid? After all, if a person is offering a comment, like, say, "This second person p.o.v. really doesn't work and undermines the power of the story. Third person would be better...." aren't they saying, in a way, "This is how I would have done it"?

It's a tough call, and of course, I am saying exactly that; 'This is how I would have done it' BUt, in a critique, I try to phrase it- 'this is how I would do it, and here's why'
sometimes I'll convince my subject of the 'why'- sometimes not. If not, the story isn't worth re-reading, of course!

And, while we're on that subject- A lovely amature writer I know just posted a long anal encounter. It's delightful, and sooo romantic- really lump-in-the throat romantic. How do I convey to her that the moisture from a woman's excitement is simply not enough to lubricate an anal session?
I'm pretty much the only person (on that site) that cares about realism. Makes me feel like an anal (sorry) personality

 

[Guest]

It's a tough call, and of course, I am saying exactly that; 'This is how I would have done it' BUt, in a critique, I try to phrase it- 'this is how I would do it, and here's why'
sometimes I'll convince my subject of the 'why'- sometimes not. If not, the story isn't worth re-reading, of course!

And, while we're on that subject- A lovely amature writer I know just posted a long anal encounter. It's delightful, and sooo romantic- really lump-in-the throat romantic. How do I convey to her that the moisture from a woman's excitement is simply not enough to lubricate an anal session?
I'm pretty much the only person (on that site) that cares about realism. Makes me feel like an anal (sorry) personality

If I'm not sure about what feedback an author wants (I never trust the "any feedback, please" comments), ask. Ask specifically "Do you want my opinion? Do you wnat to know what I thought while reading, what questions I had, and what things made me pause or didn't work for me? Are you ready to hear that?" And let the author know that it is OK if they ARE NOT ready for it.

And you can sandwich the comment with the praise you used "..so romantic...little reality bump here with the moistuer thing...got a lump in my throat". Spoon full of sugar and all that.

 

[3113]

And, while we're on that subject- A lovely amature writer I know just posted a long anal encounter. It's delightful, and sooo romantic- really lump-in-the throat romantic. How do I convey to her that the moisture from a woman's excitement is simply not enough to lubricate an anal session?

You know, I would just tell her--along with the praise, of course. Some writers are going to take any critique hard no matter how you sugar it up. Others will be grateful for your saving them from getting ruder comments on the same sexual error.

I certainly felt that way when someone pointed out a rather embarassing error that I made. I was like "Whew! I'd better get in and change that before I all kids at AH see it and start pointing and laughing at me!"

You toss the ball into her court and it's up to her to take it with grace and graditude...or not (in which case, pearls before swine, right?).

Frankly, I, myself, would be very grateful to anyone who gave me such insights because I'm also a stickler for versimilitude. It's one of those things that can--getting back to the original topic--stop a reader dead. And the last thing a writer wants (or should want) is for a reader to stop in the middle of a tender, sizzingly-hot, erotic sex scene, frowning and saying....wait a minute....!

 

[Stella_Omega]

I was going to forget about it, but Malachite and you have convinced me that I can accomplish it gracefully. It's an amatur site, she doesn't want to publish the story, after all.. but even so, she might want to know. There's only me and one other hard-ass there- and I'm pissier about these things than the other one
I'm more interested in maintaining the casual freindships at that forum- than forcing people into being better writers

 

[3113]

I'm more interested in maintaining the casual freindships at that forum- than forcing people into being better writers

You turn in your pirate bandana and sword right now, young lady! That's landlubber talk! For shame!

When you're ready, once again, to make writers swab the deck or walk the plank for such sloppy errors, then you'll get back your pirate garb.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You turn in your pirate bandana and sword right now, young lady! That's landlubber talk! For shame!

When you're ready, once again, to make writers swab the deck or walk the plank for such sloppy errors, then you'll get back your pirate garb.

Avast ye!
hands off me effects, scoundrel! Here, you can hold these jewels instead- thankee kindly
Anyway, I already flogged her via PM. Hope she don't bleed all over the deck!

 

[artisticbiguy]

That's the "I posted to be admired; isn't my work wonderful?" request for review. Lord, I wish people would just say that's what they want. It would save a great deal of time.

Shanglan

heheheheheh, that would be really really relieving. I get a lot of young and not so young authors asking me to read their stuff and give feedback... and I keep wondering "is it because this person wants honest critique... or love?"

if someone would just say "admire my work please, I need the ego stroke" I'd be happy to give it to them (so long as the ego is worth stroking at all... doesn't have to be a magnificent ego, but got to be at least something I can wrap my hand around)

 

[artisticbiguy]

as to the original topic, what makes me stop reading:

1) a laundry list of details about character anatomy
2) a lack of understanding of the use of a comma and a period
3) over use of a particular phrase (doesn't matter what the phrase is, if it shows up often enough for me to notice, it is too often)
4) a complete lack of knowledge of the subject matter, specifically a genre (example: having a wiccan character and not knowing a thing about wicca)
5) trying to write a story above what it really is (trying to make "art" out of something that is toilet magazine porn)

 

[Guest]

My search for information and my curiousity about what makes other writers tick brings up questions all the time.

Situation -- you are going through the story lists and picking something to read, just on a whim. You open a file and start reading...and you slam up against something that makes you stop reading.

What is it that stops you? What can a writer do to make you just close the file and look elsewhere? Will you skip a story because of its title or description? Are there words, phrases, or typical sorts of writing that will make you shrug and move on? Do you boggle on typos, wince at poor grammar, or throw up your hands at cliches and repetitive phrases?

Or are you the hardy soul that will persevere through to the end, reading every word no matter how much it hurts? Is it ever worth it? Are you ever pleasantly surprised, or does a story's end usually match up with its beginning?

Simple typing mistakes repeated over and over again. Punctuation, capitalization, grammar, blatant spellig errors. A few are forgiveable, an abundance signifies someone who just doesn't give a damn.

 

[BlackShanglan]

My friend did say that some caved to the temptation to be Dorothy Parker, but the facilitator usually cut that off quickly as not being so much about the story as about the commentor's ego. The idea behind this tecnique is that editors, reviewers and readers are not going to listen to you defend your story, (you won't get a chance to speak) so you better start thickening that skin.

Yes. I think that this is a crucial element of being a writer, really. Publication is an endurance race; you've got to have or develop the strength to face a few slammed doors (or a great number of them).

Samuel Beckett is my model. He shopped Murphy to thirty-one publishers before someone finally agreed to take it. I figure that if he could face it despite having problems with depression for much of his life, I can face it and take it like a horse. My actual goal now is to accumulate thirty-one rejections on something. I may lack Beckett's talent (actually I do; there's no real doubt of that), but I might be able to match his bloody-mindedness.

But how do you diffentiate between such comments and ones that are valid? After all, if a person is offering a comment, like, say, "This second person p.o.v. really doesn't work and undermines the power of the story. Third person would be better...." aren't they saying, in a way, "This is how I would have done it"?

To me, there is a great deal in tone and word choice, the same as in person. I'm thinking of the difference between saying "I did have some problems with the point of view; have you considered other perspectives? They might help to increase the central character's appeal by establishing a little distance" and saying "Drop the cutesy second person POV. Put it in third. No one wants to read a story about some woman's internal whining." Yes, they're giving roughly the same advice, but the second version dismisses the author's goals and concentrates on the assumed authority of the speaker. It's not impossible for the second person to still give good advice; that's the rub. You have to read everything carefully, even the unpleasant things. But I'd be more leery of the second person in suggested major changes (like plot and characterization), as the style of communication suggests that s/he is not really focusing on how to improve someone else's writing skills. I guess I see it as the flip side of the author who doesn't really want a critique - it's the critic who doesn't actually want to deal with someone else's writing.

Shanglan

 

[BlackShanglan]

if someone would just say "admire my work please, I need the ego stroke" I'd be happy to give it to them (so long as the ego is worth stroking at all... doesn't have to be a magnificent ego, but got to be at least something I can wrap my hand around)

*snicker*

Great image. Just pray that it's not one of those ones that's huge but floppy and in constant need of stroking to stay upright.

I'm with you, too, on people writing about things that they don't know. It inevitably shows, and I always wonder why they bother to write the story at all if they're not going to bother to do at least a little fact-checking.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Ooooh. Wouldn't that be a fabulous challenge thread? Every author could take one of the crimes against humanity listed in this thread and write a short-short that uses it in an artistically valuable way. I'd wager comedy would work with many of them. Mmmm. It would be very interesting to see what came of it.

Shanglan

...

And I love your idea--got time to organize the challenge?

The challenge is posted:

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=417280

Here's hoping we're not the only two who like the look of it.

Shanglan

 

[Guest]

Yes. I think that this is a crucial element of being a writer, really. Publication is an endurance race; you've got to have or develop the strength to face a few slammed doors (or a great number of them).

Samuel Beckett is my model. He shopped Murphy to thirty-one publishers before someone finally agreed to take it. I figure that if he could face it despite having problems with depression for much of his life, I can face it and take it like a horse. My actual goal now is to accumulate thirty-one rejections on something. I may lack Beckett's talent (actually I do; there's no real doubt of that), but I might be able to match his bloody-mindedness.

Most of the "higher intensity" workshops I've attended are full of rejection stories. You're supposed to collect them, like badges of honor. A story won't be perfected until it's been rejected multiple times, and an author isn't really an author until he or she can paper a wall with assorted rejection notices.

One professor I had suggested we "grade" our rejections. Anything with a handwritten comment is a 7.5 or above. If an editor actually takes time to mark your manuscript and send it back with a note of encouragement, that's a 10. I try to keep that in mind whenever I'm asked to edit/comment on a story.

To me, there is a great deal in tone and word choice, .... But I'd be more leery of the second person in suggested major changes (like plot and characterization), as the style of communication suggests that s/he is not really focusing on how to improve someone else's writing skills. I guess I see it as the flip side of the author who doesn't really want a critique - it's the critic who doesn't actually want to deal with someone else's writing.

Shanglan

Well, the world is chock full of people wanting to prove themselves using other people as score cards or targets. While I don't feel that only positive comments help a writer, and I don't think a commentor should apologize for finding fault, there are definately ways to supply the need without drawing blood.

Sometimes, a really rotten story combined with an author of great ego and blindness will bring out the bloodthirsty sharp remarks and biting wit, but no one deserves that kind of treatment, even when we are sorely tempted. Many a writer and critic has produced such excoriation for a column and an audience, but, again, that is about the critic raising himself using someone else's corpse as a ladder.

 

[BlackShanglan]

One professor I had suggested we "grade" our rejections. Anything with a handwritten comment is a 7.5 or above. If an editor actually takes time to mark your manuscript and send it back with a note of encouragement, that's a 10. I try to keep that in mind whenever I'm asked to edit/comment on a story.

That's an excellent idea. When one considers just how many manuscripts the typical editor deals with, it really is a mark of distinction to have him/her offer a note or comment. It's a sign that you stood out from the rest and that the editor saw something worth cultivating in your work.

Well, the world is chock full of people wanting to prove themselves using other people as score cards or targets. While I don't feel that only positive comments help a writer, and I don't think a commentor should apologize for finding fault, there are definately ways to supply the need without drawing blood.

Yes, and I think that that issue in the first sentence is what I object to. A good writer is looking for ways to improve writing - his own and indeed that of others. No one becomes better at anything by tearing down the perceived competition. However low one sinks everyone else, one's own work is still at the same level. It can't improve until one puts some effort into improving it.

That, of course, is why we all love the vote trolls - but also why it's eventually possible to ignore them. No amount of troll-bombing in the world is going to make them better writers.

Shanglan

 

[rgraham666]

My thought on reading about those workshops is how much they resembled those 'self-criticism' gatherings Communists were so fond of.

And their purpose was to ensure uniformity of thought, not to encourage imagination or passion.

So I'll pass on them.

 

[Guest]

My thought on reading about those workshops is how much they resembled those 'self-criticism' gatherings Communists were so fond of.

And their purpose was to ensure uniformity of thought, not to encourage imagination or passion.

So I'll pass on them.

If you fear someone will say a discouraging word about your work, yeah, they can be tough. I've been through several, and the occasional one is tough, but usually that's more to do with me than with anyone trying to sharpen knives on my hide. And the last one I did, last spring, gave me some excellent feedback and understanding on why one of my better stories has never sold. I've gotten a lot of great feedback on that story -- and some very puzzling, extremely varied feedback in editor rejections (I mean some of them where OUTTHERE).

I don't even think in terms of defending my stories anymore, because I know that there isn't a single comment anyone can make that I MUST incorporate. I don't HAVE to listen to ANYONE. I am the writer and I make the final decisions on the story. Listening to what others say is a tool for me, not ego feeding for them.

So, yeah, workshops like this are hard. Who said writing for others to read is easy?

As for the conformity idea, I find that a little offensive, but there is something to it. There ARE standards, and if I want to publish in the magazines and reviews I admire, then I have to meet them. There's no way around that. So, the sooner I learn those standards, the better off I am. I think Literotica has its own set of standards in regards to the votes/comments system -- there are definately certain things that get more attention and more positive feedback than others.

I'll even suggest that as soon as you ask for someone else's opinion on your writing, you are trying to achieve conformity. If you read and emulate someone else's story, you are trying to conform. Conformity has been given a bad reputation. In extreme forms, yes, it is destructive to the individual. But it also is what makes society possible.

Anyway, enough soapboxing.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

That brings me to another question -- how valid is it to "blame the reader"? I've heard it said to me the phrase "You just don't get it" when I have made comment on a story. Is that a valid response from an author or an evasion of authorial responsibility to communicate with a reader?

For me, writing is mostly about communication. It's like sex. You're trying to communicate something to the other person and have them share your feelings. All the technique and fancy footwork in the world doesn't matter if you can't achieve that connection. It's like being the stud with the 8" cock who can only fuck and not make love, can't connect. I never understood this "I write only for myself" business. I mean, you have to be true to your voice and vision, but beyond that, you're trying to share your experiences and touch someone, or so it seems to me.

There are lousy readers just like there are lousy lovers, but you don't write for them unless you're just looking for a quick and easy lay. You write for the people who matter to you, the ones you want to touch, who appreciate being touched. Anyhow, that's the way it seems to me.

I mean, if this isn't about communication--about pitching and catching--then what is it about? Writing beautiful sentences and hiding them under rocks?

 

[BlackShanglan]

Wonderful post, Dr. M.

 

[Stella_Omega]

... And the last one I did, last spring, gave me some excellent feedback and understanding on why one of my better stories has never sold. I've gotten a lot of great feedback on that story -- and some very puzzling, extremely varied feedback in editor rejections (I mean some of them where OUTTHERE)...

Now, this makes me curious- I'd love to get an idea of the particulars, if you're willing!

 

[Guest]

Now, this makes me curious- I'd love to get an idea of the particulars, if you're willing!

Stella, I've sent you a PM on this, so as not to bore others any more than necessary :> If someone else is curious, I'll post my stuff publicly, but I'll keep it in private for now (I'm so damn courteous!)

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella, I've sent you a PM on this, so as not to bore others any more than necessary :> If someone else is curious, I'll post my stuff publicly, but I'll keep it in private for now (I'm so damn courteous!)

It's interesting as a chance to see the minds of the editors in action, so to speak!

 

[rgraham666]

My experience with conformity as always been of the 'or else' variety. And since me is the only thing I've had for most of my life, I tend to raise fur and hiss when told to conform. Why should I give up what I value most simply to belong?

I do ask for criticism of my work. All my longer stuff I make damn sure goes to an editor and proofreaders. And I listen to what they have to say.

But I want weaknesses to be pointed out so I can make my work better. I do not need every line deconstructed and criticized. That borders on masochism. And as I said, I would take that as a sign I can't write at all, never mind well.

And I'd stop writing. Why would I waste my time on something I'm not good at?

 

[Guest]

My experience with conformity as always been of the 'or else' variety. And since me is the only thing I've had for most of my life, I tend to raise fur and hiss when told to conform. Why should I give up what I value most simply to belong?

I do ask for criticism of my work. All my longer stuff I make damn sure goes to an editor and proofreaders. And I listen to what they have to say.

But I want weaknesses to be pointed out so I can make my work better. I do not need every line deconstructed and criticized. That borders on masochism. And as I said, I would take that as a sign I can't write at all, never mind well.

And I'd stop writing. Why would I waste my time on something I'm not good at?

With that background, I can understand your feelings. And no one would want to go through the kind of "workshopping" you describe. I've never been in a workshop or editing situation where anyone went after my story line by line, or where I got NOTHING but negative feedback. I'd walk out of any situation like that, even if I'd paid to be there. It's not masochistic -- it is self destructive. I don't need that (I can do it fine on my own, thank you).

I have been in situations where a particular criticism stung really badly, even when sandwiched between positive comments. I've had to fight to keep my mouth shut. Usually such critiques have come from people whose writing I respected from having read it (or even having critiqued it) myself. I've gotten comments from people who's writing has not impressed me and whom I would not read if not in a workshop. I don't tend to give them as much attention unless they strike on something others also hit on, or unless I react strongly against what they say -- whenever I have a strong reaction to a comment, I pay more attention. If it stings, it may have a big truth in it I don't want to look at.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I've gotten comments from people who's writing has not impressed me and whom I would not read if not in a workshop. I don't tend to give them as much attention unless they strike on something others also hit on, or unless I react strongly against what they say -- whenever I have a strong reaction to a comment, I pay more attention. If it stings, it may have a big truth in it I don't want to look at.

You know, what's interested me with some works I've had on the SDC or other locations where many people read and comment is how often I eventually - sometimes months later - see the grain of sense hidden in what seemed like a pointless comment from someone with nothing much to offer. It's rather fascinating - like one of those black-and-white pictures that looks like a goblet and suddenly turns into two faces. It's intriguing, and indeed so much fun that I find myself actually giving some comments more attention now than I would have before, trying to make them do that clever trick.

Shanglan