What makes a Bad Story?

[shereads]

How far will I read before giving up on a story?

If the writing is awful, forget 3 or 4 paragraphs. I resent the time it took to read the first one. Life is too short and there are too many stories to bother reading hack-work.

If you limit the field to competently written stories, I have two answers:

If the author is someone I've read and enjoyed before, or if I'm reading the story on the recommendation of someone I trust, I'll keep reading. With new authors, the first few paragraphs need to provide a hint of good things to come - a quirky writing style, a flash of wit, the mention of a stethoscope or weight-lifting gloves...



Short answers to "What makes a bad story?" include:

"...grabbed her 38DD breasts"

"...plunged his 10-inch dick into"

"titties" (except when used ironically)

"Mom's titties" (esp. when used in same paragraph as "our dog, Rex")

"I'm cummmmmminnnngggggggggggggg"

and of course,

"Wake up, sleepyhead."

 

[rgraham666]

For me a bad story is just that, a bad story.

Poor language skills that force me to translate instead of read will stop me reading.

Characters with the physical attributes and emotional depth of porn stars will stop me reading.

A plot that makes no sense will stop me reading.

Badly written sex scenes without a hint of real passion will stop me reading.

I want to be entertained, damn it!

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: My 2 cents worth

The pompous people who read it with nothing in mind except “Grammar, Spelling, and the technical aspects of writing”

A story is a story, nothing more and nothing less. If you are stuck in the technical aspects of writing so much that you can’t read the story then I feel sorry for you. That tells me that if a friend of yours came to you with a problem and described it in non-perfect English, then you would dismiss him as a lame brain.

I read for enjoyment. Endless paragraphs and convoluted setences and misused words that give me a headache trying to translate garbage into English aren't enjoyable no matter how interesting the story might be.

I don't listen to friends problems for enjoyment, so decihpering non-standard English isn't a chore -- successfully deciphering a friend's problem and solving it, now THAT"S enjoyable and worth the effort.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: My 2 cents worth

It's not a matter of being a snob or feeling superior. It's a matter of expecting the artist to be competent with their instrument.

You wouldn't go out to listen to a guitarist who couldn't play; whose fingers got stuck in his strings. You'd probably walk away if the sax player is squeaking and hitting bad notes. It's the same thing with writing.

Most of us who write spend a lot of time and effort in learning grammar and spelling, not so we can make anyone feel inferior, but because we're extremely sensitive about language. Errors in punctuation and grammar stand up and slap us in the face, just like sour notes in music. That's why we're very careful about speclling and grammar and punctuation in our stories.

To continue the music analogy, it's one thing to listen to your friend fumbling around on the guitar and encourage him, but you wouldn't be doing anyone a favor by suggesting that he book Carnegie Hall and go public. You've got to master your instrument to be taken seriously.

Besides, when I read about someone swallowing a load of seamen, it just kind of ruins the mood.

---dr.M.

So true Dr. M and I respect your opinion and your analogy, my point is that those of you that have this talent and expertise should try to pass it along.

I repair jet aircraft to the best of my ability, so that people can fly safely. This is a task that I take very seriously! I don’t expect a person new to this field to know how to perform this task correctly. If a new person comes to me with a question or is interested in learning what I know, I don’t chastise him or call him stupid, boring, or in any other way try to destroy his dream. I will try to help that person become better at what he/she wants to do. If you want to improve something it begins with those who have the skills.
There are so many talented people on this web site, is it wrong to ask them to be a little less critical and a little more helpful? The result in time would be a better group of authors. If you have worked hard and perfected your skill such as I have in my daily job, I don’t see it as a sin to give back to those who really want to learn. If you truly love the skills you posses then try to help the less informed, with out destroying their creative instincts.

Jmt

 

[TheEarl]

Re: Re: Re: My 2 cents worth

So true Dr. M and I respect your opinion and your analogy, my point is that those of you that have this talent and expertise should try to pass it along.

I repair jet aircraft to the best of my ability, so that people can fly safely. This is a task that I take very seriously! I don’t expect a person new to this field to know how to perform this task correctly. If a new person comes to me with a question or is interested in learning what I know, I don’t chastise him or call him stupid, boring, or in any other way try to destroy his dream. I will try to help that person become better at what he/she wants to do. If you want to improve something it begins with those who have the skills.
There are so many talented people on this web site, is it wrong to ask them to be a little less critical and a little more helpful? The result in time would be a better group of authors. If you have worked hard and perfected your skill such as I have in my daily job, I don’t see it as a sin to give back to those who really want to learn. If you truly love the skills you posses then try to help the less informed, with out destroying their creative instincts.

Jmt

JMT: Look in the Writer's Resources section - there are lots of essays (including two by myself) on how to improve your erotic writing, a lot of which were written by AH regulars. There is the SDC where a lot of us drop in where you story can be critiqued and of course there is the Story Feedback forum. If a newbie showed an interest in improving and e-mailed me asking for help (something which has happened several times due to my WR essays), then I will spend some of my time looking over his/her story and suggesting improvements and thoughts for the future.

Aside from reading and critiquing every single new author, I don't see what else I can do to help and I'm actually more than little bit hurt that you're laying into the AH regulars about not helping encourage new writers to improve.

[/rant]

The Earl

 

[TheEarl]

After that little outburst:

I tend to let bad grammar and spelling go (within reason) for a bit. If the story concept intrigued me, then I'd carry on reading - there are several stories which I know of which are appallingly written, yet the ideas behind them are... 'intriguing' and certainly keep me thinking one handed after I've stopped reading. Same goes for risible dialogue, although I do have a limit.

The things that get me is when the author just doesn't have the craft. The idea is there, the author is willing, grammar and spelling may be technically perfect, but there is no talent to back it up. Sentences are loose and disconnected, the plot jumps wildly and sporadically around with no cause and effect, the characters are just repeating lines and the author has no idea how to connect together the disparate threads of his imagination into a coherent whole.

Inspiration and ideas make a story, but you have to have the craft to bind them together and when it is when that is missing that I exit stage left.

The Earl

 

[shereads]

I don't read celebrity, xmen, lord of the rings stories either.

But I read tentacle penetrations.

They're not nearly as much fun as the stories make them out to be. Except in fiction, a giant squid is all about his own climax. No sensitivity to his partner.

 

[The_Fool]

Reading through this, I see many of the reasons that I would click back including spelling, grammer, measurements, etc. To add my distaste to the mix I would include:

Penthouse plots as a description rather than improbable plots. Most of what we work with is plausible, but improbable.

2nd person stories. There was a thread awhile back on 2nd person tense in stories. It is just really hard to do well and really easy to do badly.

BDSM speak. We had a thread on that as well. I enjoy many of the BDSM stories and can overlook some of the capitalizations, but it gets annoying.

 

[Nicola_Italia1]

Also when the author changes tenses in mid-stream. It's kind of confusing and annoying.

I loved the Doc's "load of seamen" thanks for the laugh.

And does anyone agree with me about the:

I'M CUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMING.

It's so silly.

Cheers!

Tracey

p.s. I LOVE being a post virgin - how cool!

 

[shereads]

Re: Re: My 2 cents worth

Besides, when I read about someone swallowing a load of seamen, it just kind of ruins the mood.

---dr.M.

I haven't read the one about all those seamen. Can you send me the link?

I agree that basic writing skills are essential to story-telling. They ease the reader's way. An occasional typo doesn't ruin a good tale, but a story that's full of them is no more inviting than a road riddled with potholes.

Most of us put up with clumsy writing when we have no choice. Otherwise, we'd never learn how to set up our DVD players. But when reading for entertainment, I'm not willing to work at it. I want it fed to me, properly punctuated.

 

[The_Fool]

Re: Re: Re: My 2 cents worth

...But when reading for entertainment, I'm not willing to work at it. I want it fed to me, properly punctuated.

Reading this, why do I get this Cleopatra visual image. Slaves with fans, shereads lying in languor on piles of pillows, being fed by willing subjects....grapes? or M&Ms?

 

[carsonshepherd]

Crappy dialogue!

So many decent stories are ruined with bad dialogue. That's bread and butter stuff, isn't it?

 

[Boxlicker101]

Re: Re: Re: My 2 cents worth

So true Dr. M and I respect your opinion and your analogy, my point is that those of you that have this talent and expertise should try to pass it along.

I repair jet aircraft to the best of my ability, so that people can fly safely. This is a task that I take very seriously! I don’t expect a person new to this field to know how to perform this task correctly. If a new person comes to me with a question or is interested in learning what I know, I don’t chastise him or call him stupid, boring, or in any other way try to destroy his dream. I will try to help that person become better at what he/she wants to do. If you want to improve something it begins with those who have the skills.
There are so many talented people on this web site, is it wrong to ask them to be a little less critical and a little more helpful? The result in time would be a better group of authors. If you have worked hard and perfected your skill such as I have in my daily job, I don’t see it as a sin to give back to those who really want to learn. If you truly love the skills you posses then try to help the less informed, with out destroying their creative instincts.

Jmt

Repairing jet aircraft doesn't much compare to writing smut but most of us are free with advice and glad to critique a new writer's work. I have never heard of anybody being put down for asking for help, at least not on this forum. On the GB, yes, but not here.

 

[wishfulthinking]

The instant back-clickers for me are 38DDDD breasts, missing words, and being told I liked what was being done to me. But usually I give 'em a few paras...

What makes a story 'bad' is a really good writer with style and language etc, but the piece is dry as a bone. No flair.

The other thing I find lacking in some stories is enthusiam. I'm talking about seriousness, not humour. It can be expressed in many ways, for eg joy of discovery [for all those first time anal ]

As to criticing newbies or oldies, we all need to be told the truth sometime. And if you can handle it, more than likely you will become a better writer for it. But often many of us find it is a case of shoot the messenger. Edited to add: As to doing it right, I would have to say most if not all the AH regulars would be more sensitive than most about delivery of criticism.

 

[Green_Gem]

I absolutely hate the shopping list of physical attributes and stats and if that comes up within the first paragraph I don't give the story a chance, I DO backclick. Generally though, I will read until at least the middle of the first page and if the story has still not engaged me, if the characters haven't come alive for me, or if the writing just doesn't hold my interest, then I'm outta there.

I'm more lenient on typos, providing there aren't too many and they are not glaringly obvious, because even with the best editing in the world, the occasional one can slip through. I don't like bad English though and changes in tenses gets my teeth on edge. But I agree with what dr_m says in respect of something different, where suddenly you find an unknown person who has this interesting voice or way with words, or unique idea that makes you want to keep reading, despite the technicalities not being sound.

Green_Gem

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: My 2 cents worth

analorgy
---dr.M.

 

[Guest]

'intriguing'

The Earl

[]

 

[Liar]

Re: Re: My 2 cents worth

It's not a matter of being a snob or feeling superior. It's a matter of expecting the artist to be competent with their instrument.

Yep. The question however is where we are. Is this Carnegie Hall, where you ecpect everyone to be a pro? Or is it Woodstock, where some pros smoked pot and entertained well, while countless others smoked pot and abused guitars in front of their tents and Wolkswagen peace wagons in the spirit of good fun?

Besides, when I read about someone swallowing a load of seamen, it just kind of ruins the mood.

---dr.M.

I kind of liked Moby Dick.

 

[oggbashan]

I don't read celebrity, xmen, lord of the rings stories either.

But I read tentacle penetrations.

I haven't seen your comment on my tentacle story:

The Giant Squid

I'm disappointed. You usually leave a remark or two, for which my thanks.

Perhaps The Giant Squid was a tentacle too far. I did put it in Humor and Satire.

Og

 

[Octavian]

I can't imagine anyone here thinking of him or herself as a God or Goddess of the Literary World, jmt!

The title of this thread is, ‘What makes a bad story?’ The implication is ‘What makes a bad story for you?’ I replied accordingly and listed a number of negative elements.
You seem to be suggesting that when I come across a story containing one or more such elements, I continue with it, simply because it represents the best efforts of the author.
No, I prefer to back click. I have no wish to hurt the author’s feelings, so I do not send him feedback telling him what is wrong, especially if I believe he lacks even the basics. Back clicking means that the story has failed to meet my desired standard; my desired standard note, and that’s all there is to it. Since I am not giving voice to my criticism, the author cannot be disheartened.
I would only send a critique on a story if it were specifically requested. I would point out what I deem to be its shortcomings, but would try to offer advice in a constructive way. I would also try to find something positive to say. I think most of the authors on this forum would do the same.
The bottom line is that anyone can write, but in my opinion, if they aspire to a reasonable readership, it is essential that they have some competence, both in grammar and in spelling.

Octavian

 

[MLyons]

I really don' t know.

I refuse to cite specific nit-picky issues that I tend to try to avoid in my own writing. The minute I complain about something like bad dialogue, or misuse of ellipses, or over-description, under-description, bad grammar, or use of second person, I'll find a story where those choices just don't bother me because I'm so engaged with the story itself. The best I can say is that if I'm bored, I'll stop reading. No hard feelings, no malice, no judgement. I'lll just stop reading.

I find it easier citing things that I LIKE to see in stories. I like to see dialogue that rings true. I like to see tension. I like to see creative, and/or well executed ideas that, above all, turn me on. I like to see the writer's passion and an indication that the author has put their ALL into the story--not just knocked it out in an hour or two. In my darker moods (but not always) I like to see extreme nastiness and even crazy sexual cruelty coupled with an underlying optimism (sounds impossible, I know.). That list is an INCREDIBLY tall order, and requires some damn tricky balancing acts and commitment on the part of the author. If I stopped reading every story because it doesn't exactly fit my incredibly narrow definition of a perfect erotic story, let alone for the occasional misspelled word, or misplaced comma, I'd be missing out on some very enjoyable work.

That all said, I read precious few stories for pure pleasure. They're just too hard to find, but that's not to say that I won't keep trying. They're worth finding; the best ones are worth keeping forever, and that's the truth. If I get bored, I stop reading. That's about the only consistent criteria I can give for what constitutes a "bad story" for me--and that said, I know that what I would call a "bad story", someone else will call "beautifully perfect", and who am I to try to take that opinion away from them, or from the author who created it?

Like Octavian, if an author asks me for my honest opinion (given all my biases and faults) on their story, I will give it. But I will not do it unless I think they REALLY do want to know what I think. I'm always exceedingly (perhaps annoyingly) careful to point out throughout any criticisms I make that I am no expert, and it's all just my opinion.

I do the very best I can when writing my stories, but I know better than anyone that they have serious problems of their own. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." This is the philosophy I try to live by when evaluating the work of others.

 

[impressive]

Did some more thinkin' -- 'cause although I listed a bunch of technical reasons for back clicking, I do know that I have finished and enjoyed some stories that violated nearly every one of my "rules." The question is WHY?

The answer -- at least for me -- is that those technically unsound stories engaged all of my senses. I heard, saw, felt, smelled, and tasted my way through them. When that sensory input is missing, I'm gone.

 

[CharleyH]

What prompts the decision to stop reading? And how much of a chance to you give it?

I often stop reading a story after the first paragraph. I don't have time or patience for the badly written, and refuse to bother going any further if there is an obvious lack of talent in stringing 3 - 4 sentences together.

Othertimes I stop reading because I am not interested in the way the story starts. I really don't care for dull scenarios and to me, anything that starts with salespeople often makes me turn the page. LOL there is irony in this, but I'm not telling.

I like to be engaged by an idea, by form or by language and these done interestingly or done well, keeps me reading, even if by the end of the story I have lost interest.

Needless life stories of the characters also irks me in Lit stories. I would rather see a characters personality and past unfold in their actions. To be told when this person was born, or when that one got their first pimple when it has no consequence on the narrative makes me feel one of two ways: either the writer doesn't know what they are doing, or the writer thinks their readers are idiots. In either case, I'd rather not read.

Can't think of anything else

 

[Weird Harold]

I like to see the writer's passion and an indication that the author has put their ALL into the story--not just knocked it out in an hour or two.

This comment reminded me of somthing that is hard to define but definitely ranks high on my list of things that make a story bad -- Whether there is a sense of "Pride" from the author.

I can't really pinpoint the exact characteristics, but it didn't take me long to begin to identify the authors whose probble response to any consrtuctive comment about spelling or structure with, "Who cares, it's only a fucking porn story."

If an author doesn't appear to care about his story, then why should I bother reading it?

 

[Guest]

I can't imagine anyone here thinking of him or herself as a God or Goddess of the Literary World, jmt!

The title of this thread is, ‘What makes a bad story?’ The implication is ‘What makes a bad story for you?’ I replied accordingly and listed a number of negative elements.
You seem to be suggesting that when I come across a story containing one or more such elements, I continue with it, simply because it represents the best efforts of the author.
No, I prefer to back click. I have no wish to hurt the author’s feelings, so I do not send him feedback telling him what is wrong, especially if I believe he lacks even the basics. Back clicking means that the story has failed to meet my desired standard; my desired standard note, and that’s all there is to it. Since I am not giving voice to my criticism, the author cannot be disheartened.
I would only send a critique on a story if it were specifically requested. I would point out what I deem to be its shortcomings, but would try to offer advice in a constructive way. I would also try to find something positive to say. I think most of the authors on this forum would do the same.
The bottom line is that anyone can write, but in my opinion, if they aspire to a reasonable readership, it is essential that they have some competence, both in grammar and in spelling.

Octavian

Octavian,

True enough, I've drifted from the original thread but reading it brought up memories of things I’ve read and the following responses made to people who only wanted some constructive criticism and not a tongue lashing.

There exist on this web site those who believe them selves to be superior (which may be true in this case) but I abhor them taking delight in pointing out that the author would be better off learning the finer points of suicide.

I only wanted to point out that to complain about the quality of the work without taking an active role to improve it only leads to a continued surplus of material to hate.

Perhaps this is the goal of those who continue to take this stand?
At any rate I’ve probably worn out this line of reasoning.

Thanks to those of you who took a minute to think about what I’ve put forth.

Jmt