What is more important, the writing or the plot?

[Octavian]

I have been meaning to ask this question for some time. What has prompted it now is a recent quote by Dr_Mabeuse.

I think anyone who reads my stuff will see that plot is not the driving force in what I write. My goal is to basically to describe sex in the most sensual and accurate detail that I can: not only what's being done, but how it's being done, what the characters think of what's being done, and how they show what they're feeling. In that regard I guess you could say I'm concerned with description and imagery a lot more than plot.

The sig line of wildsweetone states:

Plot is, I think, the good writer's last resort and the dullard's first choice. S. King

Maybe I am in the minority, but I would rather read a story with a good plot written by an average writer. No matter how good the writing, and how graphic the description, I find reading about the sexual acts tiresome if there is nothing else to the story.

One of the reasons I haven’t got round to writing another serious story is that I am still working on a plot. If that makes me a ‘dullard,’ so be it.

Octavian

 

[MercyMia]

My tastes run to the literary so perhaps this comments isn't relevant here, heh heh

Plot = action, right? The slow, sure rise to high drama and then quick fall to a definite resolution? The model of the male orgasm?

I think plot is like the skeleton and the good writing is the flesh on fiction. If the plot is too obvious, then it's like the skeleton sticking out--think malnourished children's ribs. If the writing style is luscious and ripe, then it covers the bones nicely, and we are moved by the whole body, not painfully aware of the plot.

Overall, I like to read writing that has the feel of having risen organically without the obvious struggle between flesh and bones.

I have a question for you--do you think there is a distinct (but not general) difference between male and female writing? Let's say...even just confining our observations to what we read on Lit?

Mia

 

[Guest]

I'm a dullard

You're not alone in that sentiment Octavian, because I agree with you.

I think that I'm in the minority here, but if I'm not seeing plot developement in a strory, I just utilize my back button and back on out. There's go to be a who, what, when, where, and why for me to stroke off. I like purpose in my porn... Sue me.

|neonurotic|

Satyric Musings

 

[English Lady]

I completely agree with Mia's analogy...very well put in my mind. There has got to be a plot, but good ,descriptive writing makes a decent story into an amazing one!

 

[jfinn]

Maybe I am in the minority, but I would rather read a story with a good plot written by an average writer. No matter how good the writing, and how graphic the description, I find reading about the sexual acts tiresome if there is nothing else to the story.

One of the reasons I haven’t got round to writing another serious story is that I am still working on a plot. If that makes me a ‘dullard,’ so be it.

Octavian

I'm with you. I can't truly be engaged in a story unless there is a story. A good storyteller can overcome almost any deficiency in the actual writing. Of course what's really great is when you can find both an interesting plot and excellent writing in a piece. But if I have to choose, I'll pick plot everytime.

So count me in with the dullard's.

Jayne

 

[MathGirl]

Me not literary

Since I'm not literary, the main ... er .... thrust of my stories is the fucking.

The readers seem to like it that way. From the feedback I get, most of them are seriously disturbed, too. My kind of people.

 

[karmadog]

I think plot is like the skeleton and the good writing is the flesh on fiction.

I'd rather eat filet mignon than gnaw on a femur.

 

[curious2c]

The writing should grab the reader and take them on the journey. But to have that journey the writer needs to have a plot in order to give sense to the journey. Ohterwise it becomes a neverending mass of words and phrases. Good writing gives a reader something to hang on to for the ride. But with no plot the ride will be short.

There is a fine balance between good writing and having a good plot. When one acheives this they can become a great author.

 

[wildsweetone]

I'm not going to argue.

Believe that and you'll believe anything. lol

Stephen King said the words in my quote. The reason they are in my sig line is that I felt they were appropriate for my kind of writing style. I don't plot. I'm unable to plot.

I don't believe that life is plotted (okay everything happens for a reason) but as life is not plotted, why should a story be?

My stories evolve from the piqued interest in an object or scene or some other such instance. My characters deal with life as and how they see fit when it happens to them. It's all spur of the moment. When I write, I have absolutely no idea what is going to happen. I am my first reader and I write whatever I'm told.

I see nothing wrong with writing without plot. It's simply another way of writing. As we are all different human beings with different thought processes and different lives, then so our writing styles and ways of doing things should also be different. There's no single right or wrong way, we're just different.

To reiterate, there is no need to have a planned plot to write a story.

Have you ever simply put pen to paper and written freestyle? Nothing planned, just written whatever comes to mind as and when it evolves in your mind? Now that is 'pure' writing.

 

[SexyChele]

I think it depends on the style the writer feels comfortable with and what the reader wants. Thankfully, I think there is room for both.

I've done what WSO has - just started writing. But normally, for me, that was done at the beginning to get an idea formulated. I know when I first started writing, I wasn't concerned at all with plot. I'm still not, but I know the importance of having it as the backbone of the story. At least, for my writing.

I think what Stephen King is trying to say in the quote in WSO's sig line, is that good writers don't overly depend on plot. They don't make it the end all and be all of their writing. Anyone who has ever read a Stephen King novel knows that he certainly has plots running throughout his books. But the plot isn't what you see. You see the characters, feel their emotions, are sensitive to the surroundings. I don't know the mechanics behind King's writing (hey, he's just my favorite and I love his books, you know?), but I am supposing he probably writes with an idea of how the story is going to start, where it's going to go, and how it is going to end (somewhat) before he begins. I believe the quote is stating that a writer needs to use a plot to support a story, buth other things, as I mentioned above, are what move the reader. If a reader can pick out the plot too easily, they can usually pick out how the story will go. At least that is my opinion.

 

[gauchecritic]

On this question I think I have to disagree with both action writers and plot writers. My stories (like mine and David Brent's humour) are character based.

Even if the character doesn't come out in the writing (I really, really hope it does) it is still my main reason for writing.

Occasionally I have a plot in my head (or at least a beginning middle and end) but if the character isn't there then on re-reading I find I've written a load of rubbish (you may say I do anyway)

I write character in the only way I know how including speech and relevant history but only a smattering of description.

Very often the character will become willfull and take the story where I had no intention of going originally. Because I write mainly in the first person then almost everything else in the story is through his eyes, if it doesn't turn him/her on or pique his /her interest then there is no story, plot, action or anything else.

But then I am and remain stubbornly

Gauche

 

[hiddenself]

Planning vs spontaneity?

I think Stephen King meant "plot" to stand for a story that is artificially made up, as opposed to one that uses internal emotions and experiences. By 'artificially,' I mean that one uses external facts, other people's observations and descriptions, essentially things that do not have a personal connection or resonnance with the author. King prefers stories that form gradually from within; I think he uses the archaeological expedition analogy (you have to discover them and dig them out little by little). In that sense, I fully agree.
("On Writing: A Memoir on the Craft ")

I don't think that's what most people (Octavian included?) think when they use the word "plot" though. Dictionary says

plot = the plan or main story of a literary work

This has nothing to do with external or internal, etc. It refers to a good skeleton, the substance, the meat (not necessarily action -- it can be motivational or emotional conflict, etc). It does have an element of planning, but I would be surprised if Stephen King's writings are completely improvisational, without any plan whatsoever. It's possible, but not everyone is Stephen King.

IMO, if you're a brilliant writer, you may pull it off the spontaneous way. But most people are mediocre writers, and lack of some basic plot planning on their part usually hurts their product a lot.

No?

hs

 

[NorthwestRain]

I don't want to read anyone's work who takes Steven King's words as gospel. Waaaaaay too "mainstream" and D.U.L.L
He never takes a risk!

 

[Pookie]

Re: Re: What is more important, the writing or the plot?

I'm with you. I can't truly be engaged in a story unless there is a story. A good storyteller can overcome almost any deficiency in the actual writing. Of course what's really great is when you can find both an interesting plot and excellent writing in a piece. But if I have to choose, I'll pick plot everytime.

So count me in with the dullard's.

I won't even try to say this better. I agree completely.

wildsweetone: I don't believe that life is plotted (okay everything happens for a reason) but as life is not plotted, why should a story be?

I agree that life is not pre-plotted. I guess some authors can start writing with a beginning point in mind, but no ending point or path to get there. They are better writers than I am (and have more time too). AFAIK, not having something in mind before writing a story would be like getting in a car and driving across the country and hoping you have a good story to tell when you run out of road. Can be fun if you have the time to put into that style. But in the end, if it is a good story and worth publishing, there will be a engaging plot (story being told), even if it is developed along the way, in my opinion.

Pookie

 

[Whispersecret]

King's novels have plots, but he doesn't plot.

Here's my opinion. A story must have a plot. A vignette doesn't. A lot of the pieces here at Literotica are vignettes that just describe a sexual encounter.

Depending on my mood, I enjoy reading both types of writing, but I prefer to write stories.

I don't pre-plan (plot) my writing. I'll usually begin with a premise or a situation and let things flow from there. It's sort of like going through a maze. Sometimes I hit dead ends and have to backtrack, but most of the time I find my way to a satisfying conclusion. I've found that if I plot too much in advance I either lose interest in the story, or the story becomes contrived because I've sort of committed to a certain course and the subconscious drive is to stick with it, even if it seems forced. But my way isn't everyone's way.

Do whatever works for you. Neither way is inherently better. It's the product that counts.

 

[Dirt Man]

Who, what, why, when, where...

These are the basics of any story, be they a news story, or fiction written right here at literotica. Even most triple X films have a plot, but who here doesn't fast forward to the action? To write a good story one needs to hook the reader into reading the first paragraph with a catchy enticing title. To get the reader to read the rest of the story after the first paragraph, you have to have hooked them with the first paragraph by introducing them to the who, or what, or why, or when, or where. That's your bonafides. It's a promise that you'll answer the rest of the questions in a timely, entertaining, and ridgedly well articulated manner. Few people, if any rush to the sex scene when reading. Why? Because when they know that they are reading erotica/porn that there will inevitably be sex, then they want to know causality before reading about the dirty deed. If the causality is well thought out, well written, and plotted, then the sex must be equally intriguing to read. After all, anybody can say; "She sucked my dick like a hoover," but not everyone can create a moment of infidelity where in "Monica seduced my throbbing member with kisses up, and down each side, teasing with her tongue, before enveloping me into the vacuum of her wet painted lips." Building up the tension in a story starts with plot, and character development, but it doesn't end there. The writing, must not distract from the story, and the end should be a begining of something new.


As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

 

[Kate.E]

who, why, what ...

It seems to depend on the reader’s personal taste as to what engages them as an audience. In basic story-telling terms, you don’t really have much of a story without a plot. I mean, you essentially need a three act structure (ok, so there are also one-act plays ... you know what I meant) in all forms of story telling, so I guess porn fits into it somewhere. Stephen King has been cited and although I don’t know too much about his writing, I would assume he has at least a basic idea before he embarks on writing a novel. Even in filmmaking terms, there are those such as Mike Leigh who famously work with actors without a script and formulate it through workshops and improvisation, but still a plot is needed to tell his stories. A plot is the direction and without direction it's not heading anywhere.

Whether porn or not, as pointed out nicely earlier, a story is about a journey. Your audience must suspend their belief for the duration of the story and an interesting plot does this. You are essentially creating a world for your reader and they have to subscribe to what they are reading or they will switch off. I dare say there is a similarly with regards to porn movies – there are the ones with terrible plots and people generally fast forward them to the ‘action’. Some stories also read like that in people’s minds, and that is usually because they are not completely drawn into it.

Or maybe it’s not so much to do with plot afterall. I have read stories - vignettes - on here which have very little plot, but are very well-written and erotic. What they managed to do was create an environment, a context or a scene in some cases, which worked as a story-telling technique. I’m guilty of pressing the fast forward button in my head and skipping through some stories, but also I enjoy reading some backstory and seeing some dimension to a character. Suppose it depends on the mood.

I agree with many of the comments posted here, especially those from Dirt Man. Also a first time poster on here so take it easy on me!

 

[Alex De Kok]

Who, where, what, when, why...

...and, perhaps, how?

Alex

 

[KillerMuffin]

In porno, the attention you pay to plot doesn't particularly matter. People are in it for the money shot. Not a thing more.

Doing my job though, I guarantee you that I will never publish a story where the author hasn't paid just as much attention to the "boring" stuff like plot and research as he or she does to the sheer joy of imagery in writing.

The world is full of unkempt brooding writers--unpublished--slumped in coffee shops making pithy sound bites about how fabulous their art is.

The world is not full of people who have mastered the craft of writing to the point where they don't have to pay attention to the boring stuff.

The plot and the writing are equally important in story-writing.

You see, when an author sets out to write something, the author has a goal in mind for the reader. They want the reader to experience something from their writing. Here at Lit, the average goal is the orgasm. Fabuloulsy described sex scenes are a dime a dozen. Tab A hits Slots, B, C, or D only so many way, you know?

Outside of the porn world, the goal is different. How you define that goal--something most writers never even consider to begin with--is how you plot your story.

What do you want your reader to get from your writing? What's the point of writing to begin with? At what point does the writer actually sit down and deeply consider the reader's perspective?

This is where plot comes in. There are plenty of ways to plot. From a single sentence synopsis "A girl meets a swamp monster and realizes that you can't judge a book by it's cover" to elaborate outlines.

There are three parts to the plot that an author must consider. The conflict. No conflict, no story (we call those things scenes or vignettes, literary people like to call them "experimental"). The crisis, if the protagonist doesn't have to face the conflict at some point, why are you writing the story? The climax, the protagonists comes to some sort of grips with the conflict and moves on.

Must you sit down and write out detailed descriptions of how you want these things to happen? Only if you really want to. Should you think about them when you're writing a story? I really don't see how you can possibly avoid it.

 

[Kate.E]

You must always consider your audience in any form of media - design, advertising, novel, screenplay, film etc and that is usually the first question you are asked about in any pitch. I think Killer Muffin hit the nail on the head - the Money Shot. The cum shot, the pay off from porno writing.

There is a basic blue print to storytelling, as you will know, this differs from book to book, tutor to tutor. This one comes from Christopher Volger's book:

The Hero's Journey

1 - Heroes are introduced in the ordinary world, where
2 - they receive the call to adventure.
3 - They are reluctant at first or refuse the call, but
4 - are encouraged by a mentor to
5 - Cross the first threshold and enter the special world, where
6 - they encounter tests, allies and enemies.
7 - They approach the inmost cave, crossing a second threshold
8 - where they endure the ordeal.
9 - They take possession of their reward and
10 - are pursued on the road back to the ordinary world
11 - They cross the third threshold, expreience a resurrection, and are transformed by the experience.
12 - They return with the elixir, a boon or treasure to benefit the ordinary world.


Maybe there are books that people wish to share which could be helpful to writers (??)

'The Writer's Journey', Christopher Volger and 'Story' by Robert McKee are two that I have found useful as a writer. Anyone else?

 

[Alex756]

Plot vs no plot

I know what I read on here for the most part has 'plot'. Maybe not the most developed plot in the entire world, but something. And while yes there are those that are in it for the money shot, there also seem to be a great amount of people that aren't. I mean, why -read- unless there is a bit of literary interest. The world is full of movies that require nothing more than a working knowledge of your VCR/DVD remote to get to that part alot faster and in technicolor.

When I started this I thought I had something to really say, but evidently that was just an effect of having just woken up.

Basically, I believe the average lit reader comes here for something more. Some reason to sit and read and think instead of watching a mindless parade of images.

--Alex756

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Style or content; the singer or the song, huh?

I'm not sure what we're talking about when we say "plot" here. Some people seem to mean "setting" and some seem to mean "storyline". No wonder there's so much disagreement.

If we're talking about storyline, I would say that, since I've been reading here, I don't think I've seen more than maybe half a dozen basic plots, with variations: protags are old, young, virgins, amputees. reluctant, whatever.

The sexual act by its very nature has a beginning, development, climax, and a resolution, so does a description of two people making love qualify as being "plotted"? If so, what's a non-plotted story?

When I think of style without plot, I think of travelogues--and there are quite a few truly excellent travelogues in which the author's style and insight make up for any lack of plot--and poetry, in which the same is true. I also think of certain SciFi authors whose vision of the fuiture or strange worlds was so compelling that you didn't even notice that nothing happened in the story.

When I think of plot without style I think of fairy tales and folk tales.

It's a matter of preference what you like about a story and what you give importance to, but I'm with WildSweetOne and the "no plotters" on this. I'll just start writing and see where it goes. If I had to sit around and wait for a plot to ripen in my mind, I just wouldn't write anything. Just hang around the authors' board

---dr.M.

 

[jfinn]

Maybe there are books that people wish to share which could be helpful to writers (??)

'The Writer's Journey', Christopher Volger and 'Story' by Robert McKee are two that I have found useful as a writer. Anyone else?

Rat's, you already picked my favorite. 'Story' sit's on my desk next to my dictionary. I dip into it all the time.

Jayne

 

[MathGirl]

The sexual act by its very nature has a beginning, development, climax, and a resolution, so does a description of two people making love qualify as being "plotted"? If so, what's a non-plotted story?---dr.M.

Yeah, what he said!

Most of my stories involve love and romance, but they are centered around a sexual act. Since I'm not literary and don't aspire to be, that's about as much plot as I can come up with.

I'm really pleased when I can express the entire experience of being with someone I love, feeling like we're the only two people in the world, and giving and receiving pleasure.

When I can present that to the readers and it's well received, I get quite a lot of satisfaction from that.

I guess that sums up the reasons I write. It pleases me and satisfies me.

Gosh, I almost got through an entire message without making a smart-assed comment. Almost

 

[Guest]

scaring me...

Diane-
Honey, you're scaring me... your post was so solid... are you okay?

O-

Interesting question... I liked WS's distinction between a story and a vignette. I agree that each has its own value.

To be honest, I rarely stick through a fully developed "story" here at lit... your Modern Love Story being the exception.

I think that the short story is one of the most difficult genre's of writing. You are expected to "keep it short" and yet develope characters while creating and resolving a conflict that are interesting to the reader.

IMHO I think that Jeffrey Archer and Roald Dahl are two modern authors that have managed to be successful with this genre... I haven't read any Stephen King short stories, so I don't know whether his writing should even be looked to as a template for short story writers.

So, my question to my august colleagues in the Author's Hangout is "Is it profitable to model short story style and plot development after the style of full length novelists?"

b