What is Morality?

[cantdog]

Sorry not to have been here at 3 a.m., Sher. Accept my sympathy, please.

 

[shereads]

Sorry not to have been here at 3 a.m., Sher. Accept my sympathy, please.

No sympathy deserved or needed, honey. But it's nice to see it offered...As moral people go, by the way, I suspect you're in the top percentile. You're one of the people who do more than shed tears and write checks when you see suffering. The world is better because you're in it. That's rare.

 

[cantdog]

Nah. I'm wicked lazy, and a sensualist.

I do get in trouble helping people, though, sometimes. We had a fellow hit town about nine in the morning. He'd been in the grunt, if you follow me. Those guys are never ex-marines; he had issues. A cab dropped him in the parking lot of my church, where the door was open, since I do not fear the street.

By 9:10 he was embarked on a telephone campaign to local churches looking for a bus ticket. I had been unaware that the world owes you bus tickets, but it seems that it does.

He had a cane to walk with and an awful lot of heavy baggage, he could never have carried it all solo without making multiple trips. Once he was inside First ___ he needed a ride if he were to proceed further.

He also required a hotel room for the night. He ccouldn't count on a shelterto keep all his baggage secure, he didn't like shelter accommodations for the smells and the noises, the petty thievery, and whatnot. He was a musicologist, he was above that.

He made his requests as flat demands, because he was entitled to these things. I gave him and his bags a ride to his meeting with the Salvation Army fellow.

Harold at the Salvation Army is outstanding. That man lives it. He has taken on a co-ordinator position for a lot of the area churches' casual ad hoc charity work, in addition to all the day-to-day administration of the soup kitchen, crisis counseling, and god-knows-what-- food, shelter, the Thrift Store, the man has a role in all of it.

Since he began co-ordinating us church types, our bumbling efforts to do good have acquired focus. No longer can a scam artist rotate through the churches, even giving different names, and hit us up over and over, for instance. Harold keeps files on all of the people any of us help. He follows up. There's no end to it.

We got there, and I sent the fellow to Harold and waited in the hall. I got to play with a baby while a mother went off to do something, so that was all right. Harold was unwilling to help the dude. I was supportive; Harold could see it left me holding the bag, as it were, so I told him I was all right. I trust Harold's judgement, and I was unwilling to help the dude very much, myself.

I took him back to the church. From ten to twelve he called and alienated church after church, even Jewish congregations, all over that end of the county. He thought he had a bite in Millinocket, he said. Millinocket is doing a whole lot of support work right now, the paper company finally seems to have abandoned the mill town, and there are a great many new poor and new homeless there. I explained what he would find there-- more mass shelters and soup kitchens-- and explained that the town was nearly a two-hour drive away, and all by itself off the edge of the woods. No Millinocket, not in my car.

So we drove to Orono and the Newman Center, where he alienated the secretary, back into town, then out again. By four o'clock, I left him and the bags in the Newman Center parking area so he could meet the priest on his way in to perform Mass. I loitered with the secretary and watched him insult and alienate the priest before I left.

I get off work that day at noon, and I was in the doghouse, at first, for not showing up home until 4:30. It happens.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I've been thinking about this question, trying to figure out how I'd answer it.

Do I have a moral system that I try to follow? Yes, but...

I have no idea how I'd begin to explain it. The closest I got was in a play and that took 3 acts and I still didn't describe about 3/4 of it. It has traces of karma in it, bits of the true Jesus thing that everyone overlooks about suffering for the world instead of making the world suffer for you, bits of chivalry, things friends have told me, and more. But these pieces don't describe the whole, don't even begin to cover the whole.

If I said that what matters is to follow a course of action where you had no regrets, it'd be misunderstood, twisted, screwed around and thrown in my face.

So, fuck a written morality. I'll follow what I follow, the rest of you are on your own.


Not that anyone gives a shit what Satan thinks about morality...

 

[cantdog]

I like the bit about "instead of making the world suffer for you."

That's insight. Good for you, man.

I gave up on regrets as a road sign when I noticed that my strongest regrets were for my good deeds, not my venal ones. Like the guy who found a bag of cash and turned it in instead of just keeping it. He and his wife both kicked his ass unmercifully for a fool for that good deed.

My regretter seems to be stuck mourning lost opportunity. I always forgive myself for backsliding, but for not looking out for myself first, I have regrets. So I tell them to fuck off, and do what seems right to me, just the same.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I like the bit about "instead of making the world suffer for you."

That's insight. Good for you, man.

I gave up on regrets as a road sign when I noticed that my strongest regrets were for my good deeds, not my venal ones. Like the guy who found a bag of cash and turned it in instead of just keeping it. He and his wife both kicked his ass unmercifully for a fool for that good deed.

My regretter seems to be stuck mourning lost opportunity. I always forgive myself for backsliding, but for not looking out for myself first, I have regrets. So I tell them to fuck off, and do what seems right to me, just the same.

That's why I don't try to explain my moral philosophy. There is something in me (NOT THAT DAMN SUPEREGO, FUCK FREUD TO HELL), moral compass maybe, oh fuck it...

I can't explain worth shit, sorry.

There's a system it works. Maybe it's about not trying to disappoint an old friend of mine that died. But there's certain regrets I avoid. There will always be regrets about missed opportunities or nice deeds unrequited, but they're pittances, worthless, pah on them. Pah, I say. Pah. There are a set of regrets though that most people shuffle off and justify just to cover them up and forget them. Those regrets I don't want to have. Those are signs I've fucked up and fucked up bad.

Or something like that...you're a lot better at this crap than I am.

 

[shereads]

Nah. I'm wicked lazy, and a sensualist.

Those are bad?

<reaches for pencil and notepad>

I do get in trouble helping people, though, sometimes. We had a fellow hit town about nine in the morning. He'd been in the grunt, if you follow me. Those guys are never ex-marines; he had issues. A cab dropped him in the parking lot of my church, where the door was open, since I do not fear the street.

By 9:10 he was embarked on a telephone campaign to local churches looking for a bus ticket. I had been unaware that the world owes you bus tickets, but it seems that it does.

He had a cane to walk with and an awful lot of heavy baggage, he could never have carried it all solo without making multiple trips. Once he was inside First ___ he needed a ride if he were to proceed further.

He also required a hotel room for the night. He ccouldn't count on a shelterto keep all his baggage secure, he didn't like shelter accommodations for the smells and the noises, the petty thievery, and whatnot. He was a musicologist, he was above that.

He made his requests as flat demands, because he was entitled to these things. I gave him and his bags a ride to his meeting with the Salvation Army fellow.

Harold at the Salvation Army is outstanding. That man lives it. He has taken on a co-ordinator position for a lot of the area churches' casual ad hoc charity work, in addition to all the day-to-day administration of the soup kitchen, crisis counseling, and god-knows-what-- food, shelter, the Thrift Store, the man has a role in all of it.

Since he began co-ordinating us church types, our bumbling efforts to do good have acquired focus. No longer can a scam artist rotate through the churches, even giving different names, and hit us up over and over, for instance. Harold keeps files on all of the people any of us help. He follows up. There's no end to it.

We got there, and I sent the fellow to Harold and waited in the hall. I got to play with a baby while a mother went off to do something, so that was all right. Harold was unwilling to help the dude. I was supportive; Harold could see it left me holding the bag, as it were, so I told him I was all right. I trust Harold's judgement, and I was unwilling to help the dude very much, myself.

I took him back to the church. From ten to twelve he called and alienated church after church, even Jewish congregations, all over that end of the county. He thought he had a bite in Millinocket, he said. Millinocket is doing a whole lot of support work right now, the paper company finally seems to have abandoned the mill town, and there are a great many new poor and new homeless there. I explained what he would find there-- more mass shelters and soup kitchens-- and explained that the town was nearly a two-hour drive away, and all by itself off the edge of the woods. No Millinocket, not in my car.

So we drove to Orono and the Newman Center, where he alienated the secretary, back into town, then out again. By four o'clock, I left him and the bags in the Newman Center parking area so he could meet the priest on his way in to perform Mass. I loitered with the secretary and watched him insult and alienate the priest before I left.

I get off work that day at noon, and I was in the doghouse, at first, for not showing up home until 4:30. It happens.

You're a saint. I don't even hang around when the copier is jammed.

 

[shereads]

If I said that what matters is to follow a course of action where you had no regrets, it'd be misunderstood, twisted, screwed around and thrown in my face.

Actually, it makes perfect sense.

So, fuck a written morality. I'll follow what I follow, the rest of you are on your own.

You'll regret that last part.

 

[amicus]

You are absolutely correct Joe Wordsworth...when you say that people do not wish to know that an objective study of ethics exists.

Since I have tried, and failed, I might add, to define the origin of ethical human actions; perhaps you might have a go?

Good luck...

amicus the ethical...

 

[SeaCat]

To those of you who might be interested, I don't follow a moral code per se. I follow a code of Honor. I don't go out of my way to hurt other people, except under certain circumstances.

There are some things I will not tolerate, and will react rather badly to. (Rape, Spousal Abuse, Group Attacks, {no matter the provocation. If you're not secure enough in your strength to attack one on one then don't attack when I'm around.} Taking advantage of Children, either for Porn or for other purposes, Unwanted Peeping. Well you get the idea.)

On the other hand, I don't agree with many of the "Moral" laws instituted by those who have come before me. I don't believe in the idea of Indecent Exposure. (Show me how nudity hurts others.) I don't believe that a person who lusts after another is immoral. I don't believe a person can love only one person. (Bigamy can be a good thing if entered into with open eyes by all parties.) I don't believe that being nude means you are asking or sex, but I also don't believe that casual sex between consenting adults is wrong.

In other words I believe that if it feels good, and others aren't getting hurt, (unless they want to get hurt,) then go for it. Because of this I have been called Amoral, (Lacking in morals,) but this is what I believe.

Cat

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by amicus
You are absolutely correct Joe Wordsworth...when you say that people do not wish to know that an objective study of ethics exists.

Since I have tried, and failed, I might add, to define the origin of ethical human actions; perhaps you might have a go?

Good luck...

amicus the ethical...

I can't make any rational claims to know where our ethical development has come from--but I think I can suggest some reasonable scenarios...

Rachels had a great theory (very elegant) about how altruism was a socio-biological evolution of our species. Take the Caveman dillemma (a restatement of the Prisoner's Dilemma)... two cavemen go out hunting. A sabertooth tiger shows up. If they both stay and fight, both may die but they will more than likely kill it together; if one runs, he will get away and the other will die. The caveman who is inclined to run gets ostracized from the tribe, nobody wanting to hunt with him; eventually that habit is bred out of society. Altruism being a natural social evolution of a people that rely on each other, even circumstantially.

To some extent, I think a Platonic Form of Goodliness is a reasonable construct. I think Kantian "duty" is an important, if not absolute means, to efficient social behavior--where inefficient social behavior is very hard to condition, due to the incentives being thin.

Not sure if that answers your question.

Originally posted by SeaCat
To those of you who might be interested, I don't follow a moral code per se. I follow a code of Honor. I don't go out of my way to hurt other people, except under certain circumstances.

There are some things I will not tolerate, and will react rather badly to. (Rape, Spousal Abuse, Group Attacks, {no matter the provocation. If you're not secure enough in your strength to attack one on one then don't attack when I'm around.} Taking advantage of Children, either for Porn or for other purposes, Unwanted Peeping. Well you get the idea.)

On the other hand, I don't agree with many of the "Moral" laws instituted by those who have come before me. I don't believe in the idea of Indecent Exposure. (Show me how nudity hurts others.) I don't believe that a person who lusts after another is immoral. I don't believe a person can love only one person. (Bigamy can be a good thing if entered into with open eyes by all parties.) I don't believe that being nude means you are asking or sex, but I also don't believe that casual sex between consenting adults is wrong.

In other words I believe that if it feels good, and others aren't getting hurt, (unless they want to get hurt,) then go for it. Because of this I have been called Amoral, (Lacking in morals,) but this is what I believe.

Cat

How is having a code of honor NOT having a moral code? I am confused.

 

[amicus]

Well, Joe Wordsworth...if that is your answer...then that is your answer and I accept it as such...as you stated:

"I can't make any rational claims to know where our ethical development has come from--but I think I can suggest some reasonable scenarios..."


Your claim to fame on this forum was your insistence upon the use of formal logic...and now you go and state that...'any rational claims...' which means you seem to imply there is no rational or 'logical' basis to ethics.

I beg to disagree....

Epistemology is a science devoted to the discovery of the methods of of acquiring and validating knowledge.

Ethics is a science devoted to the discovery of the proper methods of living ones life.

You will note that both epistemology and ethics are classified as 'science' not opinion or majority rule and certainly not the anecdotal examples you supplied.

Human ethics is a known science awaiting your discovery.

Good luck...


amicus

 

[Huckleman2000]

Thanks, Joe Wordsworth, for the philisophical POV. That does, indeed, provide a structure to answering the questions. One that will generally be ignored; but for moral and ethical leaders, it gives them a basis for argument.

And Cantdog, you are a Saint. I feel bad that I argued a bit with you on another thread, except that I thnk my arguments were valid. So, ethically, I may hold the high ground. But morally, I am wanting. Is that the idea, Joe?

I would point out to Amicus that his assertion that there are "scientific" answers to these questions is flat wrong. There are 'logical' answers, but 'scientific' is a different exercise, involving experimental verification of hypotheses. One of the central issues in Ethics, as Joe pointed out, is their subjectivity, and another is their knowability.

For example, what are the moral and ethical considerations in attempting to assassinate Hitler? It might be ethical to say that Killing is Wrong. Allowing Hitler to live and continue his genocide is therefore ethical? This suggests that ethics are unknowable, as hard and fast rules. So, one can say that, in the face of conflicting ethical imperatives, htere are "ranks" of ethics, and these are expressed in "morals". So, "morally", it may be justifiable to kill Hitler, despite the ethical proscription against murder. This would imply that ethics are, to a degree, unknowable; or at least, not immutable. It would also iimply that morals are subjective, in that one has to decide against the ethical standard to behave morally. Are there formulas that resolve these dilemmas? Well, "Do unto others..." is a nice guideline, but it still relies on subjective morals, not objective ethics.

 

[amicus]

Huckleman....from the Northwest....where huckleberries grow on the high ground where I hunted the elk and the bear...in my youth...

you said:

"I would point out to Amicus that his assertion that there are "scientific" answers to these questions is flat wrong."

I will not conduct a class in philosophy 101 here, but I would go as far a suggesting that one needs to define ones terms before engaging in a discussion concerning philosophical terms.

Epistemology is a word...it has a definition, an absolute, clear and comprehensible definition.

Ethics is another such word. It also has a meaning. Not yours, not mine, but the evolution, through all the history of mankind of the concept concerning how man properly lives his life in order to survive.

It is an absolute term, based on the nature of man and his requirements to sustain life.

The means by which we (man) discover these basic concepts, is through science, the 'scientific method' of validating observations and confirming results and eliminating contradictions.

Your anecdotal Hitler analogy is silly...so I suggest that both you and Joe W have a wonderful experience in store for you as you discover the 'science' of human ethical behavior.

good luck

amicus...

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by amicus
Your claim to fame on this forum was your insistence upon the use of formal logic...and now you go and state that...'any rational claims...' which means you seem to imply there is no rational or 'logical' basis to ethics.

I beg to disagree....

Um... no, it means "my grasp of logic is insufficient to claim certainty on matters of the foundation for ethics". That's all. It doesn't mean ethics doesn't have a logical basis--it may very well have one--just that I am unaware of it. Re-read, re-evaluate.

 

[scheherazade_79]

"Morality, like art, means drawing a line someplace." - Oscar Wilde

 

[millennium_bard]

To those of you who might be interested, I don't follow a moral code per se. I follow a code of Honor. I don't go out of my way to hurt other people, except under certain circumstances.

There are some things I will not tolerate, and will react rather badly to. (Rape, Spousal Abuse, Group Attacks, {no matter the provocation. If you're not secure enough in your strength to attack one on one then don't attack when I'm around.} Taking advantage of Children, either for Porn or for other purposes, Unwanted Peeping. Well you get the idea.)

On the other hand, I don't agree with many of the "Moral" laws instituted by those who have come before me. I don't believe in the idea of Indecent Exposure. (Show me how nudity hurts others.) I don't believe that a person who lusts after another is immoral. I don't believe a person can love only one person. (Bigamy can be a good thing if entered into with open eyes by all parties.) I don't believe that being nude means you are asking or sex, but I also don't believe that casual sex between consenting adults is wrong.

In other words I believe that if it feels good, and others aren't getting hurt, (unless they want to get hurt,) then go for it. Because of this I have been called Amoral, (Lacking in morals,) but this is what I believe.

Cat

You've said pretty much what I was going to say.

 

[matriarch]

My morality is based on the same thing it has been for years: There's enough pain in the world without me adding to the sum total of it.

For some strange reason I seem to have missed this thread when it first came out.

RG. You are a 'gentle'-man of the first order. I couldn't agree with you more.

Mat