What is feminism?

[Keroin]

It seems there have been a lot of discussions in different threads recently about “feminism” so I thought, ‘What the fuck, why can’t it have its own thread?’

What is feminism?

I think I know what it was prior to women getting the right to vote and even what it was in the bra-burning era of the 60’s but what is it in 2010, in the first world? Do we still need feminism?

Thinking about MisterSir’s recent thread…

What about men? Do they get a fair shake all the time? Has the pendulum swung too far?



How equal are we these days?

 

[FloggingMolly]

I think its gone too far.

Look at tv comedy shows, how many of the jokes poke fun at men? Even in adverts, men are portrayed as thick/hopeless. We seem to glorify women at the expense of belittling men.

It isn't equal. Its bordering on positive discrimination.

 

[Netzach]

I think its gone too far.

Look at tv comedy shows, how many of the jokes poke fun at men? Even in adverts, men are portrayed as thick/hopeless. We seem to glorify women at the expense of belittling men.

It isn't equal. Its bordering on positive discrimination.

Wow.

Um, the *reason* men are shown as bumbling idiots every ten seconds is so that the "smarter" female can then solve the problem (usually domestic emotional or logistical) proving that the world goes to shit if you let men do "women's work" of any kind. It works, too, if I had a dime for every woman I know who "doesn't let" her husband do X Y or Z because he "screws it up" rather than striking on the issue until it's either not done or done by him. Me, I'm more lazy and fairness minded about the house than particular.

It actually reinforces all the bullshit. It's not a win. And it's an old shell game, too, it's been on TV since the fifties.

 

[BiBunny]

Wow.

Um, the *reason* men are shown as bumbling idiots every ten seconds is so that the "smarter" female can then solve the problem (usually domestic emotional or logistical) proving that the world goes to shit if you let men do "women's work" of any kind. It works, too, if I had a dime for every woman I know who "doesn't let" her husband do X Y or Z because he "screws it up" rather than striking on the issue until it's either not done or done by him. Me, I'm more lazy and fairness minded about the house than particular.

It actually reinforces all the bullshit. It's not a win. And it's an old shell game, too, it's been on TV since the fifties.

Yeah. No kidding. *Sigh* Do we really, REALLY believe that sitcoms are an accurate representation of the world now?

 

[Netzach]

To me, feminism, small f, is that basic opportunities, economic parity, able to walk the streets without fear of attack stuff that I think we can generally agree is a good thing.

Feminism big F is that academic marxist-feminist stuff that's so hung up on questions of representation and symbols that it has left the real world building.


I consider myself a small f feminist. I think that, for example, a corporate culture of quid pro quo sexual harrassment is a bigger problem than some women opting to wear high heels or lipstick as evidence of "false consciousness."

 

[wynnie]

Wow.

Um, the *reason* men are shown as bumbling idiots every ten seconds is so that the "smarter" female can then solve the problem (usually domestic emotional or logistical) proving that the world goes to shit if you let men do "women's work" of any kind. It works, too, if I had a dime for every woman I know who "doesn't let" her husband do X Y or Z because he "screws it up" rather than striking on the issue until it's either not done or done by him. Me, I'm more lazy and fairness minded about the house than particular.

It actually reinforces all the bullshit. It's not a win. And it's an old shell game, too, it's been on TV since the fifties.

first ... I dont think either sex is viewed in the correct light by the media. It all depends on who is sell what and who they are selling it to. come on people it is called advertizing (sp) and knowing who your market is.

that being said.. .my husband once told me.. if I did it right I would still have to do it. My man isnt dumb or anything. He just didnt want to do it. So he made it look really bad so I would do it..... Yeah, that only worked once.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Wow.

Um, the *reason* men are shown as bumbling idiots every ten seconds is so that the "smarter" female can then solve the problem (usually domestic emotional or logistical) proving that the world goes to shit if you let men do "women's work" of any kind. It works, too, if I had a dime for every woman I know who "doesn't let" her husband do X Y or Z because he "screws it up" rather than striking on the issue until it's either not done or done by him. Me, I'm more lazy and fairness minded about the house than particular.

It actually reinforces all the bullshit. It's not a win. And it's an old shell game, too, it's been on TV since the fifties.

And we'd have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.

 

[Keroin]

And we'd have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.

*Scooby snort*

 

[rosco rathbone]

*Scooby snort*

Gives you a scooby snack.

 

[Keroin]

To me, feminism, small f, is that basic opportunities, economic parity, able to walk the streets without fear of attack stuff that I think we can generally agree is a good thing.

Feminism big F is that academic marxist-feminist stuff that's so hung up on questions of representation and symbols that it has left the real world building.


I consider myself a small f feminist. I think that, for example, a corporate culture of quid pro quo sexual harrassment is a bigger problem than some women opting to wear high heels or lipstick as evidence of "false consciousness."

Yeah, the large F feminism irks me, to be honest, and I think it does more harm than good.

I've experienced honest-to-cod, 50's style chauvinism in some of the muy-macho countries I've visited and lemme tell ya, N America, in general, has come a long way baby. Not to say things can't get better, just that I have zero interest in railing against silliness.

As far as safety, hm. That's a sticky one for me. (As concerns first world women). Yes, women should be safe but women should also take responsibility for their safety. It's like when I hear these horror stories about tourists getting robbed only to find out said tourists were wandering around the streets drunk at 3am with gold Rolex's strapped to their wrists. Not saying they were asking for it, just saying a little common sense wouldn't have hurt.

 

[Keroin]

Gives you a scooby snack.

*gulp*

Ranks Roscoe!

 

[Netzach]

Yeah, the large F feminism irks me, to be honest, and I think it does more harm than good.

I've experienced honest-to-cod, 50's style chauvinism in some of the muy-macho countries I've visited and lemme tell ya, N America, in general, has come a long way baby. Not to say things can't get better, just that I have zero interest in railing against silliness.

As far as safety, hm. That's a sticky one for me. (As concerns first world women). Yes, women should be safe but women should also take responsibility for their safety. It's like when I hear these horror stories about tourists getting robbed only to find out said tourists were wandering around the streets drunk at 3am with gold Rolex's strapped to their wrists. Not saying they were asking for it, just saying a little common sense wouldn't have hurt.

I agree but I've been hated on for it. There's a difference between victim blame and pointing out that it's a good idea not to walk down the center line of the highway at night, drunk off your ass.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yeah, the large F feminism irks me, to be honest, and I think it does more harm than good.

I've experienced honest-to-cod, 50's style chauvinism in some of the muy-macho countries I've visited and lemme tell ya, N America, in general, has come a long way baby. Not to say things can't get better, just that I have zero interest in railing against silliness.

As far as safety, hm. That's a sticky one for me. (As concerns first world women). Yes, women should be safe but women should also take responsibility for their safety. It's like when I hear these horror stories about tourists getting robbed only to find out said tourists were wandering around the streets drunk at 3am with gold Rolex's strapped to their wrists. Not saying they were asking for it, just saying a little common sense wouldn't have hurt.

Or the ones where that stupid woman should have known that being out in public with a vagina was going to get her raped?

I'm with you on the big F feminism, and it infuriates me that these people have tried to hijack something that's really damn important. i talk to a lot of academics, and the bullshit they talk about! I was a feminist when there weren't classes about feminist theory, before there was a history-- I tell these kids we were all just pulling it out of our asses, inventing something that hadn't been done before.

Feminism, for me, was winning the right to wear jeans in highschool, and the right to take wood shop instead of home ec-- and giving young men the right to take home ec if they wanted, and a few guys did.

Feminism was taking my sexuality into my own hands, without considering what a boy might want.

Feminism was me finding out that the guy who worked with me at the supermarket was getting twenty five cents more an hour, even though we did the same work.

Feminism was watching him take the promotion to manager instead of me-- because I was getting to that marrying age and would be leaving any time now, yeppers.

That's my feminism. real life, practical, problems.

 

[Keroin]

Or the ones where that stupid woman should have known that being out in public with a vagina was going to get her raped?

Nope, not at all what I'm saying. Let me give you an example...

Back when I lived close to the city and used to go out dancing with my best friend from time to time, I was aware of the surroundings I would be in. I was aware that people, including myself, would be drinking and probably not exercising the best judgement, I was aware that there was always the potential for something bad to happen, especially out on the street. I was aware that I couldn't prepare for anything but I could use some common sense.

I wore clothes I could run or fight in, if I needed to. My girlfriend and I stuck together at all times. I had fun but I always kept a wary eye and I watched how much I drank. Out on the street, I always had some sort of weapon, even just my truck keys poking out of my fist. I'm a competent fighter but I don't take chances.

And on those nights out, I saw plenty of girls, drunk off their asses, wandering around in miniskirts and heels, alone. Did they deserve to be raped or beaten? Of course not. But they sure weren't doing anything to prevent that from happening.

It's not about having a vagina or a penis, it's about having a brain.

I'm with you on the big F feminism, and it infuriates me that these people have tried to hijack something that's really damn important. i talk to a lot of academics, and the bullshit they talk about! I was a feminist when there weren't classes about feminist theory, before there was a history-- I tell these kids we were all just pulling it out of our asses, inventing something that hadn't been done before.

Feminism, for me, was winning the right to wear jeans in highschool, and the right to take wood shop instead of home ec-- and giving young men the right to take home ec if they wanted, and a few guys did.

Feminism was taking my sexuality into my own hands, without considering what a boy might want.

Feminism was me finding out that the guy who worked with me at the supermarket was getting twenty five cents more an hour, even though we did the same work.

Feminism was watching him take the promotion to manager instead of me-- because I was getting to that marrying age and would be leaving any time now, yeppers.

That's my feminism. real life, practical, problems.

Sounds good. Yep. Been there. Have the t-shirt, yadda, yadda, yadda...

 

[intothewoods]

Nope, not at all what I'm saying. Let me give you an example...

Back when I lived close to the city and used to go out dancing with my best friend from time to time, I was aware of the surroundings I would be in. I was aware that people, including myself, would be drinking and probably not exercising the best judgement, I was aware that there was always the potential for something bad to happen, especially out on the street. I was aware that I couldn't prepare for anything but I could use some common sense.

I wore clothes I could run or fight in, if I needed to. My girlfriend and I stuck together at all times. I had fun but I always kept a wary eye and I watched how much I drank. Out on the street, I always had some sort of weapon, even just my truck keys poking out of my fist. I'm a competent fighter but I don't take chances.

And on those nights out, I saw plenty of girls, drunk off their asses, wandering around in miniskirts and heels, alone. Did they deserve to be raped or beaten? Of course not. But they sure weren't doing anything to prevent that from happening.

It's not about having a vagina or a penis, it's about having a brain.




Sounds good. Yep. Been there. Have the t-shirt, yadda, yadda, yadda...

I agree it's always wise to have your wits about you and some sort of self-defense plan in place. I don't think that wearing a miniskirt and heels is more likely to attract rapists than wearing other types of clothing. I believe there have been studies on this sort of thing. If you're the only person around in a skimpy outfit, you'll get more attention, stares, cat calls maybe -- that sort of thing. But rapists look for opportunity, vulnerability -- a person walking alone, someone they can overpower.

 

[intothewoods]

Is big F Feminism limited to academics? I think of it as including groups like NOW, Planned Parenthood, etc. I don't agree with every position that these groups take (I think NOW has an anti-porn stance in their mission statement, for example), but I agree with a lot of them.

 

[Keroin]

I agree it's always wise to have your wits about you and some sort of self-defense plan in place. I don't think that wearing a miniskirt and heels is more likely to attract rapists than wearing other types of clothing. I believe there have been studies on this sort of thing. If you're the only person around in a skimpy outfit, you'll get more attention, stares, cat calls maybe -- that sort of thing. But rapists look for opportunity, vulnerability -- a person walking alone, someone they can overpower.

No no, I meant the mini skirt and heels are not suitable for running/fighting.

 

[Netzach]

Or the ones where that stupid woman should have known that being out in public with a vagina was going to get her raped?

No, where thinking things like "can I run in these shoes?" when you go out, knowing not to take drinks from random strangers at bars, and not taking a ride home from friends of friends or getting so drunk you can't remember what happened to you - might just be good ideas that protect you. I'm sorry, I feel a different kind of outrage over stranger raped children than I do college students hanging with brand new guy and getting drunk to passing out in a dorm room with the door locked. Doing something stupid doesn't remove the blame from the rapist, but it doesn't make it less stupid either.

 

[Netzach]

Is big F Feminism limited to academics? I think of it as including groups like NOW, Planned Parenthood, etc. I don't agree with every position that these groups take (I think NOW has an anti-porn stance in their mission statement, for example), but I agree with a lot of them.

Big F feminism seems to be interested primarily in what women who are in the "hiring childcare" income bracket struggle with. PP seems not to be driven by this, NOW definitely is.

I'm sorry if I have a limited attention span for this. I've never really gotten over NOW's "lavender menace" days and I probably never will.

 

[Primalex]

Feminism, for me, was winning the right to wear jeans in highschool, and the right to take wood shop instead of home ec-- and giving young men the right to take home ec if they wanted, and a few guys did.

I tried to pick home economics 20 years ago. My attempt led to a private "conversation" with the principal, afterwards I "chose" history.

(Where I met the first love of my life, which wasn't that bad either.)

 

[Black_Bunny]

No no, I meant the mini skirt and heels are not suitable for running/fighting.

I can run quite easily in heels, and I don't see a mini skirt as posing a problem either.

In fact, stilettos could easily be used as a weapon.

 

[Seurat]

I sorta like the small 'f' big 'F' comparison.

'feminism' is the right to equal chances without the bias of your sex or associated propagandist connotations being a factor.

'Feminism' is not about evening the scales, it is swinging radically them to the other side using the past as justification. Useful in the rare occasion, but for the most part I think it undermines things a bit.

 

[intothewoods]

Big F feminism seems to be interested primarily in what women who are in the "hiring childcare" income bracket struggle with. PP seems not to be driven by this, NOW definitely is.

I'm sorry if I have a limited attention span for this. I've never really gotten over NOW's "lavender menace" days and I probably never will.

Fair enough. I had actually never heard of the "lavender menace" thing. So I just read the Wikipedia page on it, which may or may not be accurate. It sounds like NOW did at least include lesbians by the 1971 Congress to Unite Women. I guess Betty Friedan was kind of a homophobe.

Also, oops, I meant NOW had a stance against BDSM, not porn.

 

[intothewoods]

No no, I meant the mini skirt and heels are not suitable for running/fighting.

Ok. I don't think you need to be dressed for street fighting when you go out. There are plenty of techniques that don't require comfortable clothes per se. Whatever though - I don't think this is a big deal - I guess I am just uncomfortable with getting into what women can wear.

No, where thinking things like "can I run in these shoes?" when you go out, knowing not to take drinks from random strangers at bars, and not taking a ride home from friends of friends or getting so drunk you can't remember what happened to you - might just be good ideas that protect you. I'm sorry, I feel a different kind of outrage over stranger raped children than I do college students hanging with brand new guy and getting drunk to passing out in a dorm room with the door locked. Doing something stupid doesn't remove the blame from the rapist, but it doesn't make it less stupid either.

This makes more sense to me. And when two people are blitzed out of their mind, it really makes it difficult to sort out intent, fault and what really happened.

I can run quite easily in heels, and I don't see a mini skirt as posing a problem either.

In fact, stilettos could easily be used as a weapon.

Yep, stomp on a foot.

 

[Keroin]

I can run quite easily in heels, and I don't see a mini skirt as posing a problem either.

In fact, stilettos could easily be used as a weapon.

So, you in heels and me in my running shoes x 100 metres? Who do you think will win? Now make me bigger and stronger and make you drunk and/or scared.