What is an “Intellectual?” Or, the “Literati Left” (political)

amicus

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On the Author’s Hangout, I refer to them as the ‘usual suspects’, a loose unholy association bound together by a shared hatred of Capitalism and the free market, business and free enterprise.

Most of the usual suspects are bright, well educated people, as evidenced by the “University” thread, if you believe what they post.

They are indeed the ‘intelligentsia’, the intellectual elite of society. They are the writer’s (which is why they are here), and the artists and the musicians and the educators or our time or any time, in fact.

They are the ones who write the books and film scripts, paint the pictures and sculpt the statues, compose, write and perform the music that entertains us, the ones that write the computer programs and educate our children at all levels.

And the vast majority are all left wing, anti capitalists. Why?

And they are ’superior’ in all ways; they know it, flaunt it and by God remind us of it incessantly. They promote the Opera and PBS, the Theatre and Classical music and gourmet dining and refinement of taste in all areas, while looking down their collective noses at the masses, who frequent McDonalds and Walmart, listen to rock & roll, are NASCAR fans and even believe in God; the old fashioned Christian one.

Ah, yes, no doubt about it, they are superior beings to whom the masses should bow and scrape.

I have read, as much as I could stomach, of the posted literature of the ‘usual suspects’ here on Literotica, and their philosophy and sense of social justice filters down into their stories. They are the Bohemians of literature, operating on the fringe of the acceptable, promoting, pushing the envelope of human behavior, promoting their behavior as acceptable alternatives to the norm and all the while, demeaning traditional and conventional social behavior. Which is what writer’s are supposed to do, the ‘normal’ and accepted is not exciting to read, so, the writer attempts to tease interest by exploring the edges.

But back to the issue…I am trying and have been for several days, to condense the contents of several books on the subject of why the intellectuals are left wing, into a manageable essay.

It is as difficult as I thought it would be.

I ask you to consider the past human history of the intellectual among us. First off, they flourished in religion as clergy and scribes whose endeavors were funded by the church, by the people who contributed to the church and supported the church.

That also includes the artists, of all kinds, those employed by the church to decorate the houses of worship.

There is a self evident conclusion here: at that time in history, the literati had to function to please the church with their intellectual endeavors. They depended on the church for their livelihood and the degree of success was directly related to how well they fulfilled the visions of those who paid them.

Thus the entire existence of the literati depended on the generosity and approval of the church.

Move forward in time to the Great Empires of the world, where totalitarian rulers determined the content and product of the intelligent. It became a matter of actual life and death depending on how well the artist or scribe pleased the Emperor or King or Mongol Prince.

In sum, the whole range of intellectual activity depended upon the subjective whim of the ruling powers. This made the intellectuals a very nervous class of workers.

Again, move forward in time to medieval European Monarchies and the feudal lords and barons upon whom the intellectuals had to depend for their existence.

Advent the Renaissance and the Age of Enlightenment and the Age of Reason, and everything begins to change, slowly of course, but inevitably and never to return.

The printing press and the rise of trade and wealth outside the realm of aristocracy, lo and behold, the rise of the middle class and independently wealthy men and families, not beholden to King or God.

The poor, lost intellectuals found themselves without a patron of their arts.

Now, to survive, they had to please the new wealthy class with their art, music and literature.

The intellectuals hated it. Hated pandering to the wealthy businessman and trader and his fat wife and unruly children. They hated the flaunting of wealth the ostentatious manors and estates of new money, the tastes and habits outside the Church and the Royal Courts.

Enter the hope and the salvation of the disgruntled intellectual who did not favor competition in the artistic world; enter the dream of the collective, where once again, the intellectual would have a protected and cherished niche in society provided by the socialist utopia.

There would once again be an honored place for intellectual pursuits, far removed from the greedy capitalists and unfeeling businessman.

The entire intelligentsia began a collective quest still in progress to this very day. Destroy capitalism and the free market, control and restrain the common man and impose a new dictatorship, a safe one for the literati, in which all things are possible.

Modern intellectuals are children, at best, wanting a safe protected home again; cowards at worst, a soul deep fear of competition on the open market for their services.

You can probably find a copy of “The Anti-Capitalistic Mentality”, by Ludwig von Mises, in your library or at an old book shop and I imagine it is still available at bookstores.

I didn’t do nearly as well condensing the thoughts in that book as I wanted to, nor did I reference other works that deal with the subject from other directions. But surely, if you are interested, you can find your own damned box.

There is no appreciable difference between Socialism and Communism; contemporary European social democracy’s are but stepping stones on the path towards full socialism.

The curious thing is, that should the intelligentsia ever accomplish their desires, the first class of people eliminated in a socialist society are the intellectuals. They are far too dangerous to leave at large with their thoughts.

? :rose:

Amicus…
 
amicus said:
On the Author’s Hangout, I refer to them as the ‘usual suspects’, a loose unholy association bound together by a shared hatred of Capitalism and the free market, business and free enterprise.

Most of the usual suspects are bright, well educated people, as evidenced by the “University” thread, if you believe what they post.

They are indeed the ‘intelligentsia’, the intellectual elite of society. They are the writer’s (which is why they are here), and the artists and the musicians and the educators or our time or any time, in fact.

They are the ones who write the books and film scripts, paint the pictures and sculpt the statues, compose, write and perform the music that entertains us, the ones that write the computer programs and educate our children at all levels.

And the vast majority are all left wing, anti capitalists. Why?

And they are ’superior’ in all ways; they know it, flaunt it and by God remind us of it incessantly. They promote the Opera and PBS, the Theatre and Classical music and gourmet dining and refinement of taste in all areas, while looking down their collective noses at the masses, who frequent McDonalds and Walmart, listen to rock & roll, are NASCAR fans and even believe in God; the old fashioned Christian one.

Ah, yes, no doubt about it, they are superior beings to whom the masses should bow and scrape.

I have read, as much as I could stomach, of the posted literature of the ‘usual suspects’ here on Literotica, and their philosophy and sense of social justice filters down into their stories. They are the Bohemians of literature, operating on the fringe of the acceptable, promoting, pushing the envelope of human behavior, promoting their behavior as acceptable alternatives to the norm and all the while, demeaning traditional and conventional social behavior. Which is what writer’s are supposed to do, the ‘normal’ and accepted is not exciting to read, so, the writer attempts to tease interest by exploring the edges.

But back to the issue…I am trying and have been for several days, to condense the contents of several books on the subject of why the intellectuals are left wing, into a manageable essay.

It is as difficult as I thought it would be.

I ask you to consider the past human history of the intellectual among us. First off, they flourished in religion as clergy and scribes whose endeavors were funded by the church, by the people who contributed to the church and supported the church.

That also includes the artists, of all kinds, those employed by the church to decorate the houses of worship.

There is a self evident conclusion here: at that time in history, the literati had to function to please the church with their intellectual endeavors. They depended on the church for their livelihood and the degree of success was directly related to how well they fulfilled the visions of those who paid them.

Thus the entire existence of the literati depended on the generosity and approval of the church.

Move forward in time to the Great Empires of the world, where totalitarian rulers determined the content and product of the intelligent. It became a matter of actual life and death depending on how well the artist or scribe pleased the Emperor or King or Mongol Prince.

In sum, the whole range of intellectual activity depended upon the subjective whim of the ruling powers. This made the intellectuals a very nervous class of workers.

Again, move forward in time to medieval European Monarchies and the feudal lords and barons upon whom the intellectuals had to depend for their existence.

Advent the Renaissance and the Age of Enlightenment and the Age of Reason, and everything begins to change, slowly of course, but inevitably and never to return.

The printing press and the rise of trade and wealth outside the realm of aristocracy, lo and behold, the rise of the middle class and independently wealthy men and families, not beholden to King or God.

The poor, lost intellectuals found themselves without a patron of their arts.

Now, to survive, they had to please the new wealthy class with their art, music and literature.

The intellectuals hated it. Hated pandering to the wealthy businessman and trader and his fat wife and unruly children. They hated the flaunting of wealth the ostentatious manors and estates of new money, the tastes and habits outside the Church and the Royal Courts.

Enter the hope and the salvation of the disgruntled intellectual who did not favor competition in the artistic world; enter the dream of the collective, where once again, the intellectual would have a protected and cherished niche in society provided by the socialist utopia.

There would once again be an honored place for intellectual pursuits, far removed from the greedy capitalists and unfeeling businessman.

The entire intelligentsia began a collective quest still in progress to this very day. Destroy capitalism and the free market, control and restrain the common man and impose a new dictatorship, a safe one for the literati, in which all things are possible.

Modern intellectuals are children, at best, wanting a safe protected home again; cowards at worst, a soul deep fear of competition on the open market for their services.

You can probably find a copy of “The Anti-Capitalistic Mentality”, by Ludwig von Mises, in your library or at an old book shop and I imagine it is still available at bookstores.

I didn’t do nearly as well condensing the thoughts in that book as I wanted to, nor did I reference other works that deal with the subject from other directions. But surely, if you are interested, you can find your own damned box.

There is no appreciable difference between Socialism and Communism; contemporary European social democracy’s are but stepping stones on the path towards full socialism.

The curious thing is, that should the intelligentsia ever accomplish their desires, the first class of people eliminated in a socialist society are the intellectuals. They are far too dangerous to leave at large with their thoughts.

? :rose:

Amicus…

LOLOL

I shop at Wal-Mart, Watch Nascar when I'm home and listen to Classic C&W. Yet I too have been called a Usual Suspect. Am I an aberation or am I just an Unusual Suspect?

(In some ways I do agree with you, but in others even on this I disagree.)

Cat
 
SeaCat said:
LOLOL

I shop at Wal-Mart, Watch Nascar when I'm home and listen to Classic C&W. Yet I too have been called a Usual Suspect. Am I an aberation or am I just an Unusual Suspect?

(In some ways I do agree with you, but in others even on this I disagree.)

Cat

~~~

Thanks for the comment SeaCat....agree or disagree, I felt I fairly represented the history in the piece.

The working man, and I was one most of my life, doesn't have a real easy time of making ends meet. We can only physically give so many hours per day, per week and it seems hopeless sometimes just trying to keep up and foregoing all those things for our families that others have.

But come the democrats, the quasi socialists, who offer increased minimum wage, free health care, programs for the poor and needy, and the working man says, 'yeah, why not?"

Add to that an education system that promotes hatred of free enterprise and glorifies the benefits of socialism, and most people are prepared to accept a lessening of individual rights for the promise of security and comfort.

The generations of indoctrination at all levels, lowers the awareness of just what evils come with collectivism and a planned economy.

Some of your commentary seems to favor a 'big brother' approach to social affairs, wherein a strong central power directs the lives of individuals rather than protects their freedoms.

If I have wrongfully mislabeled you, I surely do retract it.

Amicus...
 
Damn!

pssst....okay, guys, the next meeting's been moved. He's onto us!
 
amicus said:
...an education system that promotes hatred of free enterprise and glorifies the benefits of socialism, ...

Post #90 of the "free trade" thread ends with this sentence:

"i.e., we're very close to being back to the merchantilist, neo-theocratic monarchy the country was founded in opposition to."

Perhaps if you read that post, you would understand one aspect of the liberal viewpoint. Or perhaps if you read the book 'Nickle and Dimed', which recounts the lives of people trying to live on minimum wage, you would understand another aspect of the liberal viewpoint.

It's all a matter of perception, and the person looking down from an ivory tower is going to see a different scene than the person looking up from the gutter.

Good luck with your project.
 
amicus said:


~~~

Thanks for the comment SeaCat....agree or disagree, I felt I fairly represented the history in the piece.

The working man, and I was one most of my life, doesn't have a real easy time of making ends meet. We can only physically give so many hours per day, per week and it seems hopeless sometimes just trying to keep up and foregoing all those things for our families that others have.

But come the democrats, the quasi socialists, who offer increased minimum wage, free health care, programs for the poor and needy, and the working man says, 'yeah, why not?"

Add to that an education system that promotes hatred of free enterprise and glorifies the benefits of socialism, and most people are prepared to accept a lessening of individual rights for the promise of security and comfort.

The generations of indoctrination at all levels, lowers the awareness of just what evils come with collectivism and a planned economy.

Some of your commentary seems to favor a 'big brother' approach to social affairs, wherein a strong central power directs the lives of individuals rather than protects their freedoms.

If I have wrongfully mislabeled you, I surely do retract it.

Amicus...

Never retreat Ami.

Some of my ideas do seem to be a bit Big Brother I'm sure, and yet at the heart of them is the idea that one should work to the best of their ability to make it.

I do believe that society should help those who can't help themselves, yet I do have a strong feeling against those who chose not to help themsleves. (A distinction I am sure.)

I myself have never asked for help, even when I was homeless. On the other hand I have never stopped from helping those who truly needed the help.

Where I may differ from you is my ideas on how Private Industry pays the workers. (No I am not a Communist on this.) I truly believe that people should be paid what they are worth. My beliefs on this are different than many others here.

I believe that a C.N.A. with over 15 years in the Medical Field should be paid more than a person who is just starting out in Security or Stocking Shelves. I belive that the Cop walking the beat or the Firefighter should get paid more than the cats playing school yard games and calling themselves Pro's.

Then again I also understand that these peoples pay are driven by the perceptions of the people. I don't agree with it, but I do understand the why.

Cat
 
DeeZire said:
Post #90 of the "free trade" thread ends with this sentence:

"i.e., we're very close to being back to the merchantilist, neo-theocratic monarchy the country was founded in opposition to."

Perhaps if you read that post, you would understand one aspect of the liberal viewpoint. Or perhaps if you read the book 'Nickle and Dimed', which recounts the lives of people trying to live on minimum wage, you would understand another aspect of the liberal viewpoint.

It's all a matter of perception, and the person looking down from an ivory tower is going to see a different scene than the person looking up from the gutter.

Good luck with your project.

~~~

I have followed that thread, DeeZire, it is one of the reasons I began trying to share a general history of 'left wing' thinking. We are so far away from that quoted statement above that I find it unnecessary to respond to, it simply isn't true. The open market, internet/computer driven global economy has eliminated forever those forms of government/economic systems.

Again, the 'Nickle and Dimed' theme, minimum wage and all that, instead of a continual criticism of a free market system, the 'tinkering' with it with federal and state enforced minimum wage, either give the market a chance to work or postulate your solutions to the problems.

If you think a command society, socialism, a social democracy, whatever, would provide answers, bring it up, explain it, support it, defend it. Instead you folks just criticize the workings of the market place and do not offer solutions.

My theme in that piece, von Mises presentation and others who understand the anti capitalist mentality, the anti industrial revolution, have pegged the social thinkers accurately. They do not wish to compete in the market place, they think it is beneath them to compete, they want to return to position of where their thoughts control the world again.

It ain't even gonna happen.

Amicus...
 
If you don't know who they are, how is it you have such well formed and deeply held opinions about them?
 
The economy was made for man, not man for the economy.
 
the initial post is mostly crap and vapid generalizations by a would-be intellectual--amicus.

he states he has met only one man who knew more than he; he claims to have studied philosophy, history, political thought, economics, etc., but has yet to figure out why most "intellectuals" don't agree. (possibly because they studied more than a course or two.)

in any case, the analysis of background or motives of proponents of a view, in cluding a rightwing one like amicus' is almost entirely beside the point; i might as well point out that amicus makes his claims because of homosexual leanings he can't stand, and desire for social recognition he's never gotten.

==
it is rather sad to see a political movement based on resentment towards educated people, esp. the highly educated ones. true conservatism HAS its intellectuals, as does objectivism. indeed Ayn Rand wrote: For the New Intellectual. ami's know-nothing ism, *which accompanies his know-it-all-ism* is a sad and incoherent spectacle.
 
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Interesting hypothesis - all I know is you'll never learn to think straight or argue your way out of a wet paper sack if you learned "logic" from Rush Limbagh.
 
amicus said:
The poor, lost intellectuals found themselves without a patron of their arts.
Up until this line, your post actually made sense.

A more historically factual and logical turn here would have been:

The long repressed intellectuals finally found themselves free of the shackles of King and God controling their arts.

Who knows where the chain of resoning would have lead to then. maybe something more rooted in the real world?
 
amicus said:
...If you think a command society, socialism, a social democracy, whatever, would provide answers, bring it up, explain it, support it, defend it. Instead you folks just criticize the workings of the market place and do not offer solutions.

It's much more fun to watch you pontificate than to try to reason with you, my friend. You do have a gift for using large numbers of words to convey small ideas. And that's a compliment! Really!

Plus, it's common knowledge, no matter what sort of solution we offered, you would either shoot it down with your abstract theories or ignore it. (For some of us, abstract theories mean nothing when the bills are overdue, or our healthcare plan has just bumped us from the rolls for getting sick.)

One solution would be...(careful, don't have a heart attack)...government - that wasn't corrupted by greed, incompetence, and cronyism, but since those are the cornerstones of capitalism, I guess it ain't gonna happen.

Peace
 
DeeZire said:
It's much more fun to watch you pontificate than to try to reason with you, my friend. You do have a gift for using large numbers of words to convey small ideas. And that's a compliment! Really!

Plus, it's common knowledge, no matter what sort of solution we offered, you would either shoot it down with your abstract theories or ignore it. (For some of us, abstract theories mean nothing when the bills are overdue, or our healthcare plan has just bumped us from the rolls for getting sick.)

One solution would be...(careful, don't have a heart attack)...government - that wasn't corrupted by greed, incompetence, and cronyism, but since those are the cornerstones of capitalism, I guess it ain't gonna happen.

Peace


~~~

You are correct, I don't expect you to offer a solution and if you did, I would indeed challenge any solution that violated individual human rights.

Practical matters do often do overwhelm us. Many times I have taken a job outside my profession to pay the bills or meet other expenses. But the job did not require a compromise or sacrifice of basic moral values, that I would not do, regardless.

For you to state that greed, incompetence and cronyism are cornerstones of capitalism, may be what you believe, but it is not truth. Greed is something that can affect all men, it is not an ingredient of the economic system itself. Incompetence in built into government, not the free market, incompetence in a free market performance is quickly and necessarily eliminated except in cases when government enforced unions participate; then incompetence is welcomed. Cronies, exist in all walks of life, Jew do business with Jews, Catholics with Catholics and Blacks with Blacks as a preference. In a free market, with profit as the motive, a producer will sell to any who have the lucre and a buyer will buyer the cheapest and best product.

So, rest happy with your belief's, but please don't claim truth or rationality.

Amicus...
 
I rarely watch TV anymore, but recently I had the opportunity to catch one of the network newscasts. Wasn't that cute CBS chick that needs a good spanking, it was one of the ABC/NBC dudes.

What struck me was the commercials -- drugs to make you pee, drugs to make you not pee, drugs to to make you sleep, drugs to make you not sleep, drugs to make you get a hard-on. No commercials for i-Phones, no video game commercials. Who watches network news? Who watches Faux News or CNN?

Turns out, it's people like Ami. Liver-spotted Luddites, threatened by cutting-edge technology, somewhat unsettled by modern science, unable to reconcile their natural curiosity with their avowed political affiliations.

But they vote. These moronic Christians vote en masse, so they are certianly not to be underestimated. Who will they embrace? Certainly not Romney, he of the fake religion. Perhaps The Fred, he looks great on TV. And we know the Luddites have nothing better to do than watch Law & Order reruns.
 
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Liar said:
Up until this line, your post actually made sense.

A more historically factual and logical turn here would have been:

The long repressed intellectuals finally found themselves free of the shackles of King and God controling their arts.

Who knows where the chain of resoning would have lead to then. maybe something more rooted in the real world?


~~~

Well, thank you for the partial compliment, Liar. And logically, I would prefer your take on it to von Mises, but alas, he made his point with examples that I did not include.

One was the 'Hollywood left', the arts in general and the fickle public who loves you one day and ignores you the next. Whereas the artist, writer, actor depends on public approval of their work, an entrepreneurial creator of a commodity market, if he keeps producing quality at low prices, always has a ready market.

Artists must meet an ever changing demand from an unpredictable public. It drives them insane, basically, into drug dependencies, unable to sustain relationships and increasingly anti social behavior.

Like recent media events, Anna Nicole, Lindsey Lohan and Paris Hilton, the unfortunate people, desperate to maintain public popularity, go to any means to sustain a career.

You can find the same in the art gallery world, the fashion world, the world of cutting edge architecture. These are brilliant, driven people, who yearn for the security of a socialist paradise and contribute heavily to any leftist cause in hopes of currying favor.

It is a shame, and I wish you were correct, that once freed from the "shackles of King and God controlling the arts..." moved proudly into the competitive world. But they did not.

They want the security of 'big brother' overlooking their foibles and usually find it in the court system sooner or later.

Amicus...
 
[/QUOTE]

amicus said:
Practical matters do often do overwhelm us. Many times I have taken a job outside my profession to pay the bills or meet other expenses. But the job did not require a compromise or sacrifice of basic moral values, that I would not do, regardless.
...and yet you proceed to do exactly that:
amicus said:
For you to state that greed, incompetence and cronyism are cornerstones of capitalism, may be what you believe, but it is not truth.
True.
amicus said:
Greed is something that can affect all men, it is not an ingredient of the economic system itself. Incompetence in built into government, not the free market, incompetence in a free market performance is quickly and necessarily eliminated except in cases when government enforced unions participate; then incompetence is welcomed.
Patently false - eliminated it may be, but seldom quickly - this sort of sanctimonous pro-business drivel is the hallmark of Randism, not classical captialism with reconizes that men act in their own self interest, not ethics, morality or any other high toned abstraction - recognizing this, capitalism seeks to force this self interest, via competition and regulation into positive synergystic channels.

You're making a typically Randist argument here: that unregulated industry will somehow respect market dynamics instead of continually trying to undermine, circumvent and corrupt it - there is no evidence of this ever having happened over the long run.

Randists denigrate regulation because they don't really understand market dynmamics, and are thus unable to tell good regulation from bad, so they just denouce it all.
amicus said:
Cronies, exist in all walks of life, Jew do business with Jews, Catholics with Catholics and Blacks with Blacks as a preference. In a free market, with profit as the motive, a producer will sell to any who have the lucre and a buyer will buyer the cheapest and best product.
Contradiciton: this is a free market by any standards, historical or otherwise in micro, and yet sweetheart deals continue to be made, cronyism still exists.
amicus said:
So, rest happy with your belief's, but please don't claim truth or rationality.
Amicus...
It's only black and white if your cones are burned out - there is no "final solution", no ultimate "particle of power" - just flux and change.
 
Just a thought....

It is a rather curious dichotomy, is it not? The intense hatred of capitalism by the livid left, yet their total dependence on the system and their participation in it.

Like criticizing the energy corporations who magnificently drill oil from the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico, transport it, under the ocean or in great tanker vessels to refineries, process it, transport it yet again all across the country for Al Gore and John Edwards to pump into their SUV's and private jets.

SUV's are nice to drive, I have one. Big, powerful, roomy, safe, stylish and the new ones come with every convenience imaginable. Everyone wants one. Thanks to the capitalistic monetary system, wherein banks can loan money for almost anyone employed to purchase such a vehicle on a five year contract.

And the marvelous R&D of Microsoft and the microchip industry, with better than annual doubling of speed and capacity, manufacturing at prices everyone can afford. And the music and film industry, thanks to modern industrial methods that created, manufactured and distributed, in an affordable manner, PC;s laptops, printers, scanners, IPOD's GPS systems and telephones in something the size of a wallet.

Marvelous progress utilized by all, capitalist haters alike.

Yet they bite the hand the feeds them.

I wonder why?

Amicus...
 
amicus said:
Incompetence is built into government, not the free market, incompetence in a free market performance is quickly and necessarily eliminated except in cases when government enforced unions participate; then incompetence is welcomed.

Or in cases like Halliburton, where the government is buying a service from Halliburton, and Halliburton is delivering a substandard service but still getting paid for it.

Or in the construction industry, which, on the local level, is non-union, but has some of the worst scoundrels known to man setting up businesses as builders, and when the complaints pile up to the point where the builder's reputation starts to suffer, they close that company and then open a new one under a new name and start all over again. (The incompetence is built into the business model, and the perpertrator of the incompetence - the builder - gets rich off of it.)

Or in the case of (non-union) auto repair shops, which are notorious for doing unneeded repairs. In fact, unneeded repairs are just part of the business model. (The free market business model.)

Or in the (non-union) sub-prime lending market, where all these companies sold loans to gullible home buyers, lying to them (the lying is documented) about the terms of the loans.

Or in the medical field, where (non-union) insurance companies are mis-diagnosing their customers ailments, (since the insurance companies are deciding what treatments their customers are allowed to receive) and the customers are dying as a result.

I don't know what free market enterprises you refer to, my friend, but the ones I see around here are brimming with incompetence.

amicus said:
So, rest happy with your belief's, but please don't claim truth or rationality.

Amicus...

You're the one who claims truth, my friend. I do claim rationality, but when the bar for rationality has nothing to do with reality, or when the reality of the rationality is based on perception, rather than facts, who's to say which 'rationality' (mine or your's) is valid?

But I do enjoy your claims to the moral high ground. They remind me of that old story; I believe it was called 'The Emporer With No Clothes.'
 
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...and yet you proceed to do exactly that:

True.

Patently false - eliminated it may be, but seldom quickly - this sort of sanctimonous pro-business drivel is the hallmark of Randism, not classical captialism with reconizes that men act in their own self interest, not ethics, morality or any other high toned abstraction - recognizing this, capitalism seeks to force this self interest, via competition and regulation into positive synergystic channels.

You're making a typically Randist argument here: that unregulated industry will somehow respect market dynamics instead of continually trying to undermine, circumvent and corrupt it - there is no evidence of this ever having happened over the long run.

Randists denigrate regulation because they don't really understand market dynmamics, and are thus unable to tell good regulation from bad, so they just denouce it all.

Contradiciton: this is a free market by any standards, historical or otherwise in micro, and yet sweetheart deals continue to be made, cronyism still exists.

It's only black and white if your cones are burned out - there is no "final solution", no ultimate "particle of power" - just flux and change.[/QUOTE]


~~~

Y'know, xssvve, laissez-faire simply means, 'let them be free' or a policy of non intervention in individual affairs...

Neither Marx, Lenin nor Nietzche made a living from their writings...they all had mundane day jobs.

Capitalism doesn't need a defense, it has its own justification in that it nurtures human freedom and choice.

And it is not just a 'Randist' argument, if you would like a list of the classical economists I studied forty years ago, I can google one for you; they all postulate and defend the same premise, a free market place is the only economic system that engenders human freedom and efficiency.

This thread was basically asking why the vast majority of intellectuals hate capitalism. Do you challenge that basic premise that they do indeed hate capitalism?

And if you disagree with 'von Mises' basic argument, please explain why the left does indeed express this hatred.

Amicus...
 
Who told you the "left", meaning democrats of course, "hate" capitalism? This isn't 1950, there are very few actual socialists left - the pay is lousy for one thing - and the ones that do haven't read Adam Smith any more than you have, and haven't any more of a clue what they're talking about than you do.

The credible ones focus on linguistics, sustainable market economics and promoting social justice rather than burning flags or tilting at tired old windmills, try reading Jameson.

It's a strawman, neo-con talk radio agitprop to keep your attention focused anywhere but on them, set people agaisn t each other, then steal their houses when theyr'e not looking - haven't read Zinn either have you? Or Kevin Phillips?

Yer cannon fodder baby, shock troops - you remember what happened on the night of the long knives?
 
amicus said:

And if you disagree with 'von Mises' basic argument, please explain why the left does indeed express this hatred.

Amicus...


Mises, pfft., Mises didn't invent capitalism, he just Teutonized it.

The left expresses hatred at the excesses of corrupt corporatism on the mistaken assumption that it's capitalism, just as you defend it on the same mistaken assumption.
 
DeeZire said:
Or in cases like Halliburton, where the government is buying a service from Halliburton, and Halliburton is delivering a substandard service but still getting paid for it.

Or in the construction industry, which, on the local level, is non-union, but has some of the worst scoundrels known to man setting up businesses as builders, and when the complaints pile up to the point where the builder's reputation starts to suffer, they close that company and then open a new one under a new name and start all over again. (The incompetence is built into the business model, and the perpertrator of the incompetence - the builder - gets rich off of it.)

Or in the case of (non-union) auto repair shops, which are notorious for doing unneeded repairs. In fact, unneeded repairs are just part of the business model. (The free market business model.)

Or in the (non-union) sub-prime lending market, where all these companies sold loans to gullible home buyers, lying to them (the lying is documented) about the terms of the loans.

Or in the medical field, where (non-union) insurance companies are mis-diagnosing their customers ailments, (since the insurance companies are deciding what treatments their customers are allowed to receive) and the customers are dying as a result.

I don't know what free market enterprises you refer to, my friend, but the ones I see around here are brimming with incompetence.



You're the one who claims truth, my friend. I do claim rationality, but when the bar for rationality has nothing to do with reality, or when the reality of the rationality is based on perception, rather than facts, who's to say which 'rationality' (mine or your's) is valid?

But I do enjoy your claims to the moral high ground. They remind me of that old story; I believe it was called 'The Emporer With No Clothes.'

~~~

Some time ago I posted a piece about the Halliburton Company itself. As I recall a rather in depth presentation of the 'actual' company, its business, history and personnel. They have rather an admirable past record.

Instead of parroting the left wing mantra, you might do a little actual research yourself.

If you ever get over your fear of reality and venture out into the real world, I recommend you visit a construction site, even, god forbid, look around you at the skyscrapers and shopping malls and manufacturing plants and retail buildings, even look at a newly developed housing project. You will find the industry in good shape and producing admirable structures of efficient design and beauty.

And I don't think you have ever met an auto mechanic in your entire life, for if you had, you would realize the technical competency required for computer equiped, electronic ignition, electric fuel pump repairs to modern vehicles.

And the sub-prime lending market catered mainly to a speculator's market for those who bought ten or twenty homes from builders hoping the market boom in real estate would continue with rising prices and continued high demand. In a free market you are free to invest and speculate. In this case, they invested unwisely. That has nothing to do with the over all housing or real estate market.

In the medical field, you are following the party line yet again, lobbying for socialized medicine, a 'national healthcare plan' ala Hillary Clinton, to mimic the European and Canadian failures in the experiment.

In each case, yet again, you criticize a free market place and do not have the courage to state your real thoughts; you want a strong central government to control all aspects of the economy. If you had the courage to do that, I could point out that command economies do not function as intended and the side effect is the complete loss of human liberty ala soviet communism.

But then...that doesn't trouble you. Keep on trying to destroy freedom, one day you may succeed, then what?

amicus...
 
amicus said:
...And the marvelous R&D of Microsoft...

Microsoft is the perfect example of incompetence in the free market. Remember when Windows 3 came out, like 3 years after Apple was doing windows? Remember when Windows 95 came out, and people were spending as much time re-booting from crashes as they were working? It there had been numbers collected on downtime due to an incompetent OS (compared to the Mac) Microsoft would have gone down in history as sucking billions of dollars out of the GNP, due to missed productivity while the whole office was waiting for the computer guy to re-boot the system.

An incompetent OS gains market share due to clever marketing, (or Apple misses it's chance at market share by naive marketing, thinking that because their product was the best, it would be adopted.) Where is the moral high ground in this scenario? It's just illustrates the fact that capitalism is based on image, rather than substance. It's based on perception, rather than facts, as is your argument, my friend.
 
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