What irks you in a story? - a list for writers on Lit.

[lovecraft68]

However, this isn't second person. It's still from the "I" perspective, so it's just very boring first person perspective.

Hmmm looking back at it I think you're right. Would need to take the "I" out completely. Well see why I don't attempt it in any stories?

 

[PennLady]

The one thing that I find most offputting is second person viewpoint.

I do, too. I think part of it is that I don't want the story to be about "me." I want it to be about someone else. So reading you, and knowing the writer meant me, is just not something I like.

 

[Handley_Page]

What irks me in a story is things that do too much detail (she had a 38DD chest) etc..
A handful is sufficient, I think.

 

[Guest]

deleted

 

[mynameisben]

What irks me in a story is things that do too much detail (she had a 38DD chest) etc..

Whenever I read "she had a 38DD chest" it tells me everything I need to know about the story.

 

[Allyourbase]

Great thread, it makes me think! I might be guilty of some of the things mentioned.

One thing that irks me and hasn't been mentioned yet - so I wonder what your thoughts on this are:

too much sex...

Really, if there's something that annoys me, it's characters cumming over and over again. It's not only because it often is very unrealistic, I also think it is because I, as a reader who wants to get off, would like to know whether the climax in the story is actually 'the' climax. Just give me one mindblowing orgasm, not five. It might be personal, but for me, that's enough.

The same goes for a short story with a lot of separate sex scenes that are not building up in intensity towards a big finale. It's often just a bit too much... If you have three good ideas for earthshattering sex scenes, write three stories, or a series with three chapters!

And then there's multiple page stories starting with sex right away, or worse, starting with an orgasm, or, even worse, orgasms. That sort of takes away the motivation to read the entire three pages of the story, doesn't it?

 

[Allyourbase]

And for the rest:

I'm not a fan of physical descriptions, since they not only tend to end up in stereotypes, but they also usually read like grocery lists. Even when they're hidden a bit more, it's often not done very well. I do it myself, sure, descriptions of what people look like sometimes find their way into my stories. Still, every time I choose something for a character, like green eyes, or a slender figure, I keep wondering: what if the reader has a thing for brown eyes? What if (s)he likes a full figured partner?

More: the lack of facial expressions, emotions, character development.

But: 'I didn't know that,' she smiled...? I do that, I fear. Just like piercing and glancing. Sorry.

 

[mynameisben]

And for the rest:

I'm not a fan of physical descriptions, since they not only tend to end up in stereotypes, but they also usually read like grocery lists. Even when they're hidden a bit more, it's often not done very well. I do it myself, sure, descriptions of what people look like sometimes find their way into my stories. Still, every time I choose something for a character, like green eyes, or a slender figure, I keep wondering: what if the reader has a thing for brown eyes? What if (s)he likes a full figured partner?

More: the lack of facial expressions, emotions, character development.

But: 'I didn't know that,' she smiled...? I do that, I fear. Just like piercing and glancing. Sorry.

Grocery lists are a sign of weak writing in general. Don't go blaming it on physical descriptions. Physical descriptions are just fine if you space them out appropriately. People tend to become aware of physical characteristics over the course of time, not all at once. A good story will weave that growing awareness of physical description as the story develops. Also, a reader can only absorb so much physical data at a time. Data becomes believable and accepted more readily when there is a backstory of evidence to support it.

Eye color is rarely a deal-breaker in an erotic story or in real life. Same thing for a full figure, or whatever. Go with what you like, as that will bring out the best from you. Make your characters sexy and believable, and the reader will unconsciously substitute the favored eye color on his or her own.

 

[PennLady]

OHHH. I am truly sorry. I thought the discussion was that the only tag that should be used was "Said." This was a genuinely blonde moment for me. For that point, I do stand by what I said with regard to reporting verbs though. I certainly agree that not every line of dialogue needs a tag because that does become tedious. I also understand the show, don't tell point with regard to the wink for teasing, etc, but it seems that we walk a line of clarity here. Great literature would do all the things you suggest and it would be aimed at great readers. I mean no disrespect, but can the same be said for lit readers? In many cases we have excellent readers who take the time to notice each of the subtle nuances mentioned throughout this thread, but I fear the vast majority of our readership is less sophisticated. The line,

She winked, and I was enchanted to hear her say, "Come here."

Is much more alluring than

"Come here," She teased, adding a playful wink.

I'd agree with the example. It does convey more. However, the second isn't "wrong."

As for readers -- there's a wide spectrum of them here. Some are critical (me among them), and most are probably not. Therefore, to me, you can't write to please all the readers. I'm competitive with myself, therefore I want to write the best story I can that I'm satisfied with. If I'm lucky, readers will find it and agree. I've also become more critical of my own writing (I cringe at my early stuff ).

I think the first line conveys more thought and emotion, but the second line might be clearer for some readers as to the intent. I guess, changing the focus just for a moment, and adding a bit to some of the previous comments, where does audience fit into the equation? We can take the time to write truly great, sophisticated literature, but will it be appreciated? Will lit readers be aware of anti-thesis, metaphor, and meter in writing? Also, how does the issue of style or tone contribute to the ideas we've discussed?

I'm not aware of anti-thesis, etc., a lot of the time -- I admit that. I read a lot of fluff and enjoy it, and I can't say I'm trying to write "great" literature. I'm trying to tell a good story and hope people are entertained. I'm not sure the audience does fit into the equation, except perhaps that, speaking for myself, I want to make sure that whatever audience finds my stories can understand them. And by that I mean that I make myself clear -- I define my characters, my plots, etc.

And boy have I gotten away from dialogue tags. I first paid attention to this issue after reading Stephen King's "On Writing," in which he begs you to use "said" when you use a dialogue tag. And I remembered it when I started writing and I can also tell you I went overboard with it, although it was until I was writing an e-book that an editor called my attention to it. And since she hates dialogue tags, I've changed and gotten away from using them. Style and tone, would, I think, dictate how and when a writer uses tags. Otherwise we'd all write the same.

 

[Guest]

deleted

 

[Allyourbase]

Grocery lists are a sign of weak writing in general. Don't go blaming it on physical descriptions. Physical descriptions are just fine if you space them out appropriately. People tend to become aware of physical characteristics over the course of time, not all at once. A good story will weave that growing awareness of physical description as the story develops. Also, a reader can only absorb so much physical data at a time. Data becomes believable and accepted more readily when there is a backstory of evidence to support it.

Eye color is rarely a deal-breaker in an erotic story or in real life. Same thing for a full figure, or whatever.

Oh I agree that grocery lists are a problem in general, just for me personally it irks me way more when applied to bodies. I can handle it just fine, mostly, when it's used for landscapes or interiors.

Spacing them out is a good way to deal with it, but I still think a character doesn't necessarily need a hair color. Unless I'm using some particular thing as a fetish, I don't really care that much about the specifics. I care more about what the effect is. It's fine to describe clothes or hairstyle, but it doesn't really matter that her skirt is a blue pencil skirt size XL. It matters that it makes the other person want to rip it off her and do unspeakable things to that ass.

Well, at least, it matters to me.

Go with what you like, as that will bring out the best from you. Make your characters sexy and believable, and the reader will unconsciously substitute the favored eye color on his or her own.

For sure, that is true.

 

[PennLady]

Oh I agree that grocery lists are a problem in general, just for me personally it irks me way more when applied to bodies. I can handle it just fine, mostly, when it's used for landscapes or interiors.

Spacing them out is a good way to deal with it, but I still think a character doesn't necessarily need a hair color. Unless I'm using some particular thing as a fetish, I don't really care that much about the specifics. I care more about what the effect is. It's fine to describe clothes or hairstyle, but it doesn't really matter that her skirt is a blue pencil skirt size XL. It matters that it makes the other person want to rip it off her and do unspeakable things to that ass.

I don't want a detailed description of a person, but if the author wants the character to be blond, or red-haired, I don't care if they tell me. I do think there can be, depending on the story, too little description given. I usually work in hair, eye color and height in general ways. I might describe a person's body as curvy or lean or whatever but I wouldn't give bust or waist size unless it was important.

I rarely describe clothes, again unless it's relevant, and the flip side is that often descriptions of clothes are lost on me. I'm not good at visualizing the different cuts of dresses or suits. I might read about a dress that's strapless and does this and that, but after "strapless" and "knee-length," I'm pretty lost. Well, mostly I just don't care.

 

[avrgblkgrl]

Great thread! Sorry I don't have anything enlightening to say (weak smile). But, it's refreshing and I just couldn't help myself. I had to let ya'know.

Okay I will add this. I know that just listing your characters' physcal attributes is self indulgent--just as self indulgent as too much scenery or unnecessary conversation. I’m a strong believer in the adage that if you remove it and nothing is lost, then don’t put it in there to begin with. If it is significant, if it changes things, then it stays. This is always harder to do than say. I’m working on continuing a story in the Interracial Romance section and physical appearance is a significant part of the story. It has an effect.
How do you guys feel about racial differentiation in fiction?

 

[PennLady]

Great thread! Sorry I don't have anything enlightening to say (weak smile). But, it's refreshing and I just couldn't help myself. I had to let ya'know.

Okay I will add this. I know that just listing your characters' physcal attributes is self indulgent--just as self indulgent as too much scenery or unnecessary conversation. I’m a strong believer in the adage that if you remove it and nothing is lost, then don’t put it in there to begin with. If it is significant, if it changes things, then it stays. This is always harder to do than say. I’m working on continuing a story in the Interracial Romance section and physical appearance is a significant part of the story. It has an effect.
How do you guys feel about racial differentiation in fiction?

Well, that's a very broad question. It would depend on a lot of things, but if the story centers around it, then the descriptions -- not just physical, but how the characters feel about any differences -- are important.

I'm not even quite sure what you mean, really. I'd have to say I don't really care. If the characters are well-developed, I won't care what color (or species; I read a lot of sf/fantasy ) they are.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I think you can describe your interracial characters, and avoid the laundry list. The trick is put each bit of description into context. The reason you are describing something is because of something they're doing, or experiencing.

When she saw that white buy, she first noticed how tall he was, and he how he had to to push his blond hair out of his green eyes.

She can look him in the eye wearing her come-fuck-me pumps, and she knows how white her dress looks against her mahogany skin.

She shook her head to the beat to make her brand new weave fly around, the cherry red ends catching the light.

She played with his hand, pushing up his sleeve to expose his bony wrist. The scar was still bright red against his pale skin with its scattering of golden hairs...

Stuff like that. maybe.

 

[yuna1981]

I'm going to jump in here and echo what's been said about physical descriptions. Yes they read like grocery lists and yes they limit the reader. It is rare that I've read a physical description that added to anything, and to me, 99% of the time it detracts. I personally don't believe text should try to mimic the visual register.

I tried writing description in a story once and it's one of my worst ones. Never again.

Regarding the race thing, yes I agree it is significant, though for me personally it is sufficient to have the general category of race mentioned, or maybe you can write it into the desires/thoughts of the characters involved. But I still wouldn't want to read a detailed physical description all at once, that's for sure.

 

[MissTCShore]

I just CANNOT read an erotic story written in the second person....

"You see me in the doorway. You start to undress... You put your hands on my ...."

I'm sorry, but if I didn't do this stuff and don't remember doing it, don't tell me I did it (or that I'm doing it). First person recollections or writing in the third person is find. But don't "make" me do things I haven't done or wouldn't do.

 

[glynndah]

I just CANNOT read an erotic story written in the second person....

"You see me in the doorway. You start to undress... You put your hands on my ...."

I'm sorry, but if I didn't do this stuff and don't remember doing it, don't tell me I did it (or that I'm doing it). First person recollections or writing in the third person is find. But don't "make" me do things I haven't done or wouldn't do.

I have one story here written in second person, but I was talking to one specific person, not the general "you". Hm. It wasn't very erotic, just humorous.

 

[sr71plt]

I just CANNOT read an erotic story written in the second person....

"You see me in the doorway. You start to undress... You put your hands on my ...."

I'm sorry, but if I didn't do this stuff and don't remember doing it, don't tell me I did it (or that I'm doing it). First person recollections or writing in the third person is find. But don't "make" me do things I haven't done or wouldn't do.

*sigh*

Again, this isn't second person. "You see me." It's being told from the perspective of the "me." This is first person.

*sigh*

 

[lovecraft68]

*sigh*

Again, this isn't second person. "You see me." It's being told from the perspective of the "me." This is first person.

*sigh*

I am admittedly confused here with this. How about providing a very quick example?

 

[manyeyedhydra]

2nd person is all 'you'. Like in the Choose you own adventure type gamebooks.

"You walk down a corridor which ends at a junction. Do you go left (page x) or right (page y)?"

"You go left. About halfway down you fall into a pit trap full of spikes and die. Go to 14."

That's about the only place it should be used IMHO.

The you, me thing is 1st PoV, but bringing the reader into and giving them a part in the tale. Mostly I find those stories a little creepy. I can see it working in the Erotic Mind Control niche, but it's not really inclusive of a large audience.

 

[sr71plt]

I am admittedly confused here with this. How about providing a very quick example?

It's so hard to pull second person away from first person that to be "in" second person, you need to establish the perspective inside the "you" from the beginning and not let loose. You can have essentially the same sentences in both, but if you have to include me/I action, to be in second person you have to establish that "you" perspective from the top and not give any perspective away to the "I." If you start off from an "I" perspective, you lose out on the chance to have it second person.

You smell the cigar smoke as you approach the hotel room and feel yourself incongrously mellowing and heightening your sensitivity at the same time in remembrance of other encounters in other hotel rooms linked to the aroma of the tobacco. You see me in the doorway of the room as you approach. The sight of me in just the lounging pants--and that cigar in my hand, which you perceive I am fondling suggestively--sends a chill of pleasurable anticipation up your spine. You shudder, feeling yourself tense and your knees weakening, as you pass me in the doorway. You start to undress, following me to the bed. You put your hands on my chest as you are folded into me and your lips to mine, capturing the smoke of the cigar as I exhale it. You emit a soft moan of want, knowing what you want--and wanting it now.

This has the same essential "me" sentences in it, and it was hard as hell to keep the "I' perspective out of it and make all of the perspective, sensations, and thoughts in the "you" mode. Even in this passage, felt the pull of the "I'" perspective. To keep it in the second person, it all has to be kept in the mind and feelings of the "you." And nobody said it was easy to do this or sustain it (or make anyone want to read too much of it).

It's a lot easier to stay in the second person when you don't have an "I" involved--when all of the actions and perception is focused in another direction and the "I" of the narrator is truly a fly on the wall. This is another reason why the second person "don't work to gude" in erotica. It might be effective to some degree in voyeurism.

 

[Allyourbase]

What is important, I think, when writing in second person, is that the point of view should be internal. Memories, thoughts, feelings - the narrator should have access to it for it to be an enjoyable read.

"As you stroll down the dark alleyways you remember how much you promised yourself never to walk home alone like this. That last beer had been one too much, though, and that familiar feeling of being immortal, the one you had as a teenager, pushed away all worry. But you're worried now, allright."

 

[Allyourbase]

It's so hard to pull second person away from first person that to be "in" second person, you need to establish the perspective inside the "you" from the beginning and not let loose. You can have essentially the same sentences in both, but if you have to include me/I action, to be in second person you have to establish that "you" perspective from the top and not give any perspective away to the "I." If you start off from an "I" perspective, you lose out on the chance to have it second person.

(...)

It's a lot easier to stay in the second person when you don't have an "I" involved--when all of the actions and perception is focused in another direction and the "I" of the narrator is truly a fly on the wall. This is another reason why the second person "don't work to gude" in erotica. It might be effective to some degree in voyeurism.

Ah, simultaneous post! Yes, this!

I would, indeed, not introduce an 'I', except possibly as a twist at the end of course.

 

[lovecraft68]

It's so hard to pull second person away from first person that to be "in" second person, you need to establish the perspective inside the "you" from the beginning and not let loose. You can have essentially the same sentences in both, but if you have to include me/I action, to be in second person you have to establish that "you" perspective from the top and not give any perspective away to the "I." If you start off from an "I" perspective, you lose out on the chance to have it second person.

You smell the cigar smoke as you approach the hotel room and feel yourself incongrously mellowing and heightening your sensitivity at the same time in remembrance of other encounters in other hotel rooms linked to the aroma of the tobacco. You see me in the doorway of the room as you approach. The sight of me in just the lounging pants--and that cigar in my hand, which you perceive I am fondling suggestively--sends a chill of pleasurable anticipation up your spine. You shudder, feeling yourself tense and your knees weakening, as you pass me in the doorway. You start to undress, following me to the bed. You put your hands on my chest as you are folded into me and your lips to mine, capturing the smoke of the cigar as I exhale it. You emit a soft moan of want, knowing what you want--and wanting it now.

This has the same essential "me" sentences in it, and it was hard as hell to keep the "I' perspective out of it and make all of the perspective, sensations, and thoughts in the "you" mode. Even in this passage, felt the pull of the "I'" perspective. To keep it in the second person, it all has to be kept in the mind and feelings of the "you." And nobody said it was easy to do this or sustain it (or make anyone want to read too much of it).

It's a lot easier to stay in the second person when you don't have an "I" involved--when all of the actions and perception is focused in another direction and the "I" of the narrator is truly a fly on the wall. This is another reason why the second person "don't work to gude" in erotica. It might be effective to some degree in voyeurism.

Yeah I can see where this could drive someone nuts over a period of time. Even as I was reading it I could almost feel myself wanting to read it in another "person" But to me this line:

which you perceive I am fondling suggestively--sends a chill of pleasurable anticipation up your spine

Is where the difference really is. The perception is in another person's mind other than your own. This was well written but I think it would make my head hurt to read an entire story like that.

BTW I like the use of the word incongruous. I love that word but just never seem to be able to work it in.

Thanks for the example I now know why most people say it is difficult and also why most do not like to read it.