What If?

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I just read a financial article in the paper. Government economists estimate that the Federal Government needs to raise taxes 20%-30% to pay for all the borrowing and existing programs.

But lets pretend that America opts to be Socialist Paradise on Earth, and everyone works (or doesnt work) for Uncle Sambo. Every dime you earn goes to Washington, and Obama sends you an EBT card for your piece of the action. How would it work?

Do you get a livable wage? Do stay at home parents get a card too?

Keep in mind that Obama needs 20% to 69% of your income to pay the bills....plus what you already pay for Social Security & Medicare, so it could be 30% to 79%.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I figured this would stump the Usual Suspect chump.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I, for one, am absolutely devastated by your brilliantly logical and incisive argument.

*snicker*

 

[R. Richard]

I just read a financial article in the paper. Government economists estimate that the Federal Government needs to raise taxes 20%-30% to pay for all the borrowing and existing programs.

But lets pretend that America opts to be Socialist Paradise on Earth, and everyone works (or doesnt work) for Uncle Sambo. Every dime you earn goes to Washington, and Obama sends you an EBT card for your piece of the action. How would it work?

Do you get a livable wage? Do stay at home parents get a card too?

Keep in mind that Obama needs 20% to 69% of your income to pay the bills....plus what you already pay for Social Security & Medicare, so it could be 30% to 79%.

They almost got to that point in Sweden, not so long ago. Finally, the taxpayers revolted. Now, the government provides somewhat less services and the people buy more of what they want.

I pay a lot of taxes now and receive almost nothing in return. I'm very angry about the situation. From feedback at community meetings, others are also beginning to get angry. We have trees, we have ropes. Things seem to be moving in that direction.

 

[WRJames]

You are assuming we still need to pay off our debts? Perhaps to foreign investors?

There are two problems. First, the massive borrowing mostly done by Bush during good times so he could pay off his ultra wealthy backers with low taxes.

The second is the loss of production in the US promoted by those same ultra wealthy corporate types who found that they could squeeze more money out of their companies by getting third world countries to send us stuff -- for the promise that we would pay them, sometime, somehow.

Those twine deficits -- government spending and trade -- have mostly gone to fund a massive orgy of excess -- MvMansion, SUV's, humongous HD tv's, you name it. Plus a couple of expensive, nasty wars to show those third world countries we still mean something.

So the question of whether we go socialist is pretty much irrelevant. More to the point -- can we recover enough of the money that has been squanderd to get the economy working again?

 

[R. Richard]

You are assuming we still need to pay off our debts? Perhaps to foreign investors?

There are two problems. First, the massive borrowing mostly done by Bush during good times so he could pay off his ultra wealthy backers with low taxes.

The second is the loss of production in the US promoted by those same ultra wealthy corporate types who found that they could squeeze more money out of their companies by getting third world countries to send us stuff -- for the promise that we would pay them, sometime, somehow.

I must disagree here. Bush collected more tax money than before he made his tax rate cuts. Bush did cut tax rates, but not taxes. Congress, however, spent enormous amounts of money, usually with little return.

If you will check, you will find that ultra wealthy people are more likely to be found in the Democrat ranks. The George Soros types and the limousine liberals aren't Republicans.

An interesting comparison can be made between General Motors, who makes cars in the USA and, say, Toyota, who also makes cars in the USA. GM uses union workers and is now bankrupt. Toyota uses non-union workers and is making money. It isn't just Toyota, BMW has a non-union plant in SC.

 

[DeeZire]

But lets pretend that America opts to be Socialist Paradise on Earth, ....

And you're wondering why you're getting no responses? No one around here aspires to turn America into a socialist state, regardless of common wisdom over on the Right.

Instead, let's pretend that R. Richard goes out and hangs a bunch of democrats with his rope. What happens then? R. Richard's worst nightmare is what happens, because he becomes a ward of the state, sitting in jail for the rest of his life. On the upside, he doesn't have to pay taxes anymore, plus he gets to enjoy the fruits of his previous taxation - a nice clean jail cell.

Back to your OP - higher taxes are the obvious solution to our deficit dilemma. I don't mind. In fact, I look forward to it, mainly in hopes that I'll get to see R. Richard explode in a fit of rage. The fact that R. Richard thinks he's getting nothing in return for paying taxes means he lives out in the wilderness somewhere, totally disconnected from society, which means I'll never know if and when he explodes in a fit of rage, so that would suck... but wait!

R. Richard is connected to the internet! That means he is getting something in return for paying his taxes. He's getting a viable society in which to live, with infrastructure, and civil servants, and relatively safe water to drink, and food that, for the most part, won't make him sick when he eats it, and law enforcement professionals keeping him safe, and the US Armed Forces fighting the wars he votes for. If all that stuff adds up to nothing, I'd say R. Richard has a very strange values system. (No offense, R. Richard - I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. )

 

[sr71plt]

Since the proposition is irrelevant to any sort of reality, it needs no discussion.

 

[DeeZire]

If you will check, you will find that ultra wealthy people are more likely to be found in the Democrat ranks. The George Soros types and the limousine liberals aren't Republicans.

I did check, and according to the Forbes top 400 list from the year 2000, you're 100% wrong.

The Myth of Old Money Liberalism: The Politics of the Forbes 400
Richest Americans
By VAL BURRIS,
University of Oregon
http://www.uoregon.edu/~vburris/oldmoney.pdf


Here is the data:

===============================================
Political Partisanship of New Rich and Old Rich
===============================================

-----------------------------------------------
New Rich
-----------------------------------------------

Democrat 9%
Strong Democrat 20%
Republican 16%
Strong Republican 36%
Bipartisan 19%

-----------------------------------------------
Old Rich
-----------------------------------------------

Democrat 6%
Strong Democrat 13%
Republican 10%
Strong Republican 59%
Bipartisan 12%
-----------------------------------------------

The above data is on page 8 - Figure 2
University of Oregon
http://www.uoregon.edu/~vburris/oldmoney.pdf



On page 7 - Figure 1, you will find the bar chart illustrating the
Mean Percentage of Contributions to Republicans and Democrats.
http://www.uoregon.edu/~vburris/oldmoney.pdf


“New Rich were defined as those whose parents did not have substantial
wealth or own a business worth more than $1 million.”

“Rising Rich were defined as those who inherited small businesses or
wealth worth more than $1 million, but insufficient to place them on
the Forbes list without a significant increase in their wealth during
their lifetimes (usually a result of their success in building a small
business into a large corporation).”

“Old Rich were defined as those who were born into wealth sufficient
to place them on the Forbes 400 list.”

 

[mikey2much]

I have had it with trickle down capitalism

I am afraid that you boys have got it wrong. While you guys are waving the flag and beating the drums for the rightwing parade, the rich guys you support have cut the taxes they pay and shipped the jobs overseas so they don’t have to support this country in that way either. So let me see here the fat cats won’t pay their taxes, they won’t support the working man in America but they still want us to fight their wars for them. If this is capitalism then I say socialism sounds pretty good.

I am sorry guys but if the rich won’t pull their weight then I say that their money should be taken and put to good use. They have proved they do not care what happens to you so why do you guys keep sucking up to them?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Since the proposition is irrelevant to any sort of reality, it needs no discussion.

Plenty of places tried it: Russia and the Soviet Bloc, China, etc. Who do you suppose pays the GM workers in America? AIG?

Will American socialism be like our military?

 

[Liar]

They almost got to that point in Sweden, not so long ago. Finally, the taxpayers revolted. Now, the government provides somewhat less services and the people buy more of what they want.

When was that 'not so long ago'? Just curious as to what you're referring to.

We had a fairly robust 'food stamp' style welfare system in the 70's and 80's. Certainly more extensive than the US, but to call it anywhere near the idea of 'living wages' is just plain silly.

Right now we have an incompetent right wing coalition in charge that thinks that the unemployment level is high because people are just not motivated to get jobs. The lines at the employment agencies and the ratio of applicant per job nation wide, even for the shitty jobs, tells another story, but we wouildn't want to confuse the politicians with reality, now would we?

So they cut unemployment benefits, thinking that's the holy grail to get people working. education and re-education programs, and grants to employment agencies. Yep that'll do the trick.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

You guys need to do what North Korea does.

The state hires the unemployed to pose as shoppers and students and patients and doctors.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I suppose if we were entirely socialist, none of us would have to pay for anything, anymore than prisoners do.

You wouldn't need money because your rent, food, medical care, and utilities would be free. The people who supplied you with these wouldn't need your money because theirs would be free too. You wanted to go out after work and have a drink, that would be free as well. On the house. Stop on the way home and pick up a free computer and a barbecued chicken. What the hell. Help yourself to an automobile and a couple pairs of underwear too.

People would work because if they didn't, the government would put them in jail. Well, according to Marxist dogma, they'd work out of their own sense of social responsibility. They'd also refrain from picking up a new yacht a day or hoarding all the truffles for themselves out of the same sense of social good.

Pretty ridiculous? Yeah. But so is JBJ's scenario.

But how much would I be willing to pay in taxes to have the government take care of my housing, food, medical, and utilities?

About what I now pay the private sector to do it, I suppose, if the level of service were the same.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I suppose if we were entirely socialist, none of us would have to pay for anything, anymore than prisoners do.

You wouldn't need money because your rent, food, medical care, and utilities would be free. The people who supplied you with these wouldn't need your money because theirs would be free too. You wanted to go out after work and have a drink, that would be free as well. On the house. Stop on the way home and pick up a free computer and a barbecued chicken. What the hell. Help yourself to an automobile and a couple pairs of underwear too.

People would work because if they didn't, the government would put them in jail. Well, according to Marxist dogma, they'd work out of their own sense of social responsibility. They'd also refrain from picking up a new yacht a day or hoarding all the truffles for themselves out of the same sense of social good.

Pretty ridiculous? Yeah. But so is JBJ's scenario.

But how much would I be willing to pay in taxes to have the government take care of my housing, food, medical, and utilities?

About what I now pay the private sector to do it, I suppose, if the level of service were the same.

Maybe its ridiculous but its how life is/was in several places...like Alabania, Cuba, Vietnam, and North Korea.

Its a simple question, really: If America was socialist what would we be like?

 

[mikey2much]

The first thing we would have to do

It seems to me that the most important thing we could do as Americans to save our country from falling to third world status is election reform. We have to get to the point where all our battles are not fought with dollars.

Donations to political parties are not the same as freedom of speech.

The way it is now every hopeful office holder must demonstrate his ability to be a money magnet. In plain English that would be spelled ‘bribable’. Under these rules every honest man would be disqualified.


If we could force our leaders to consider something other than the money they will need in the next election maybe they could solve some of the problems that are killing our country as we know it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

MIKE

I fear we're way beyond saving America; our government has sucked up every dollar in its crisis to save itself from extinction. So we're doomed to some form of socialism such as the Albanians, Cubans, North Koreans, and Vietnamese practice.

Hillary and Pelosi will ride in Cadillacs and Mercedes, and the rest of us will fight for space aboard a tractor pulled tipcart. H & P will go to the Mayo Clinic or the Betty Ford Detox Clinic, and you'll sign your name on a clipboard and check back daily.

 

[R. Richard]

And you're wondering why you're getting no responses? No one around here aspires to turn America into a socialist state, regardless of common wisdom over on the Right.

Of course not. Well, there is a trillion dollar socialist medical plan that's being debated in Congress. Also, GM has been sold to the unions that work there, isn't that socialist?.

Instead, let's pretend that R. Richard goes out and hangs a bunch of democrats with his rope. What happens then? R. Richard's worst nightmare is what happens, because he becomes a ward of the state, sitting in jail for the rest of his life. On the upside, he doesn't have to pay taxes anymore, plus he gets to enjoy the fruits of his previous taxation - a nice clean jail cell.

I don't kill anyone for free, if I can help it. I'm a professional and I get paid for what I do. However, there are the products of the local educational system and they have no real discipline or pride. The local yokels will kill for free.

Back to your OP - higher taxes are the obvious solution to our deficit dilemma. I don't mind. In fact, I look forward to it, mainly in hopes that I'll get to see R. Richard explode in a fit of rage. The fact that R. Richard thinks he's getting nothing in return for paying taxes means he lives out in the wilderness somewhere, totally disconnected from society, which means I'll never know if and when he explodes in a fit of rage, so that would suck... but wait!

Under Bush, we had lower tax RATEs and collected MORE taxes. Under Obama, we're now collecting LESS taxes, MUCH LESS.

R. Richard is connected to the internet! That means he is getting something in return for paying his taxes. He's getting a viable society in which to live, with infrastructure, and civil servants, and relatively safe water to drink, and food that, for the most part, won't make him sick when he eats it, and law enforcement professionals keeping him safe, and the US Armed Forces fighting the wars he votes for. If all that stuff adds up to nothing, I'd say R. Richard has a very strange values system. (No offense, R. Richard - I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. )

I wasn't aware that my taxes supported the Internet. Please cite sources. If what I live in is a viable society, I'm surprised. I see illegal immigrants walking around, night by night. There are several thousand convicted sex offenders that the local scumbags admit are living in the area and are not registered, as required by law. The local water is described as "Too thin to plow and too thick to drink." I buy my own food and water. The local 'educational system' turns out 'graduates' who often can't read or write. If the 'graduates can read or write it's usually at an elementary school level. There are several girls, not all local, who make a very good living for their pimps, by selling themselves on the street. The scumbags do almost nothing. For the right money, I'll catch, try and execute the pimps (I can rent a kangaroo for cheap.) I have some problems with the command level in the USA Army, but not with the troops. I never did get to vote for the wars, but almost all of Congress did. As to the scumbags keeping me safe, either you're trying to pick a fight, or you need mental help. The only people that the scumbags really protect are the people who vend doughnuts in the area.

 

[DeeZire]

I wasn't aware that my taxes supported the Internet....

My point was that your taxes support the infrastructure upon which society depends. All of the problems you cite in your whiney post are directly related to the underfunding of the agencies in charge. Schools are underfunded, law enforcement, EPA, they all suffer from slashed budgets due to the Bush Crash. The solution is higher taxes. If you don't want to pay higher taxes, but you still want to complain about shitty services, that makes you look like a spoiled little kid who's pissed off because he didn't take out the trash and now his mommy won't give him his allowance. But don't worry, everybody grows up eventually.

(Now I remember why I had you on ignore all this time. Buh bye. )

 

[R. Richard]

My point was that your taxes support the infrastructure upon which society depends. All of the problems you cite in your whiney post are directly related to the underfunding of the agencies in charge. Schools are underfunded, law enforcement, EPA, they all suffer from slashed budgets due to the Bush Crash. The solution is higher taxes. If you don't want to pay higher taxes, but you still want to complain about shitty services, that makes you look like a spoiled little kid who's pissed off because he didn't take out the trash and now his mommy won't give him his allowance. But don't worry, everybody grows up eventually.

(Now I remember why I had you on ignore all this time. Buh bye. )

A typical liberal response. The liberal has no idea what the levels of funding are in the area in which I live, but the schools, 'law enforcement' and the EPA are underfunded. Then the liberal attaqcks me personnally and then refuses to continue a discussion.

The local schools have turned out non-functional, at least near illiterates for the past several decades. It is highly unlikely that, given more money, they will do anything but turn out more of the same.

According to the US Constitution, there is only one group of people who know what the law is. That group of people currently numbers nine. That same group often disagrees on a five to four vote exactly what the law is. However, we supposedly have a group of high school 'graduates' who can enforce law. Why don't you be serious?

The EPA is a federal agency. If you feel that the EPA is underfunded, write your Congressperson.

I pay taxes to support the Fire Department. They do a fine job, often risking their lives to protect people. I get my money's worth from the Fire Department. I pay to support the Scumbags. The Scumbags do a lousy job, when they do a job at all. They won't even talk to me. They may be underfunded, because they be pimpin' fo' they mama. (I have raised the issue publicly several times.)

 

[cloudy]

The Scumbags do a lousy job, when they do a job at all. They won't even talk to me.

They probably won't talk to you because you're a clueless social outcast that has delusions of being some scary assassin.

I don't know who you think buys that stupid shit, but I can guarantee you that your local cops don't. I also guarantee that they're laughing their asses off at you the minute you turn your back.

Oh, and no one hear believes that bullshit, either. Enough. Just stop.

 

[R. Richard]

They probably won't talk to you because you're a clueless social outcast that has delusions of being some scary assassin.

I don't know who you think buys that stupid shit, but I can guarantee you that your local cops don't. I also guarantee that they're laughing their asses off at you the minute you turn your back.

Oh, and no one hear believes that bullshit, either. Enough. Just stop.."

Whenever someone says "I'm not book smart, but I'm street smart," all I hear is "I'm not real smart, but I'm imaginary smart

Cloudy, this is just too good to pass up. Re-read the bolded lines and decide if you're maybe just imaginary smart.

 

[Liar]

Maybe its ridiculous but its how life is/was in several places...like Alabania, Cuba, Vietnam, and North Korea.

Its a simple question, really: If America was socialist what would we be like?

Like Alabania, Cuba, Vietnam, and North Korea.

The real question is... what made you bring up the question?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Like Alabania, Cuba, Vietnam, and North Korea.

The real question is... what made you bring up the question?

When I'm not writing or growing tomatoes or spreading love & sunshine here, I bury my nose in the financial news. And I can add, all the way to ten or twenty if I have to.

So I lay out all the facts on my kitchen table, sharpen my calculator, and get to work.
Interest on our national debt is going to 700 BILLION per year.
ObamaCare is gonna cost about 2.8 TRILLION per year.
Add Social Security and AFDC and the military and all the rest.
PLUS! Bet the farm Congress will keep borrowing money!

And soon enough government costs more money than we make. One economist sez government will absorb twice the amount of money Americans earn by 2038.

So there are 3 possibilities for our future.
1. Politicians will mend their ways and moderate their spending.
2. Americans will revolt and hang politicians from street lights.
3. America becomes a socialist concentration camp where we labor for corporations, eat grass soup, and are shot if we get sick.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

3. America becomes a socialist concentration camp where we labor for corporations, eat grass soup, and are shot if we get sick.

Well, we already labor for corporations and get hung out to dry if we get sick, so if the grass soup is free, that doesn't sound like such a bad deal. But I don't see how you can consider that socialism.