What if there were no US?

[takingchances42]

Or if the US had adopted a posture of rigid isolationism after WW II? As an intellectual exercise, it might be worth looking at where some prominent anti-American Lit posters would be today... (leaving aside there would likely not be personal computers or internet as we currently know them.)

Coolville, our favorite anti-American Dane, would be living in a Warsaw Pact country. No personal computer, standing in line for basic groceries, and likely not able to report anything close to the truth in his job as a reporter. Like Germany and the rest of Western Europe. Gee, I can see why he really hates us American fascists.

Don Dyck would be living in a small, weak country (population wise) that occupied a vast continent filled with riches -- with their hemispheric neighbors being very large countries that are quite short on natural resources in most cases. The only question, as any real student of history could quickly see, would be whether it would be China, Japan, Indonesia or India that would end up taking those resources for themselves -- or more than likely, already would have.

Even our Canadian friends, if the US did not defend our continental borders -- another small (in population), weak country possessing vast resources. History shows these countries have short lives when more powerful countries decide they would like those resources for themselves.

The US has been such a dominant force for so long, protecting so much of the world that those weak nations that rely on us the most seem incapable of imagining what the world would be like without us. Without our peace, without the stability that has allowed world trade to flourish, without our technology. It is shame that some of the posters on this board can't live in a world without the good old Fourth Reich, as Don describes the US. I would love to see how their lives would be without us...

 

[p_p_man]

The US has been such a dominant force for so long

Well for about 80 years at least.

What's it feel like to be such an old timer America?

ppman

 

[LadyG]

Did they ask us to protect them or were we just sticking our noses in as usual?

I can't seem to find anywhere that Canada asked the U.S. to protect them.

 

[SINthysist]

They'll tell you to your face that none of that would have ever had happened had we not existed...

 

[brokenbrainwave]

Re: Re: What if there were no US?

What's it feel like to be such an old timer America?

better than it feels to be a has been I suppose

 

[SINthysist]

Yeah, we should have left Russia firmly ensconced in Alaska too...

It's also probably incumbant upon us to give back most of Mexico too, I assume.

 

[takingchances42]

Re: Re: What if there were no US?

Well for about 80 years at least.

What's it feel like to be such an old timer America?

ppman

You are the one who gets all worked up about mentioning historical technicalities like the US role in WWII, ppman, so I decided to keep it in a modern perspective.

Sorry for leaving you off my Lit anti-American list, didn't mean to slight you. So how would you enjoy living life in a Soviet occupied state instead of putting up with the imperialist US?

 

[takingchances42]

Did they ask us to protect them or were we just sticking our noses in as usual?

I can't seem to find anywhere that Canada asked the U.S. to protect them.

Canada doesn't have to even think about asking, because the US has so completely protected it.

Like I said, its an intellectual exercise -- which requires exercising the brain. How long would Canada with its vast resources, weak military and small population last in a world without the US to keep global peace? It might have, possibly, taken the Soviets six months to occupy Canada... Would likely take the current Chinese about the same...

 

[n-erasmus]

Give me a break !

We have meddled in the world to promote our economic and cultural interests. No doubt whatsoever. Is there some sort of contest we are entering as a country to identify the most beneficent Dominator? Have you ever heard a Dominant country talk about how *BAD* they were to the dominated? Britain? Russia? France? Germany? Turkey? Japan? China? I don't think so.

Get it straight -- not everyone here, not even for 100's of years, has benefited from helping our rulers expand their influence and wealth. If *YOU* have, at least you have a good reason to support them. Governments are not football teams, and should not be cheered on as one.

 

[takingchances42]

Re: Give me a break !

We have meddled in the world to promote our economic and cultural interests. No doubt whatsoever. Is there some sort of contest we are entering as a country to identify the most beneficent Dominator? Have you ever heard a Dominant country talk about how *BAD* they were to the dominated? Britain? Russia? France? Germany? Turkey? Japan? China? I don't think so.

Get it straight -- not everyone here, not even for 100's of years, has benefited from helping our rulers expand their influence and wealth. If *YOU* have, at least you have a good reason to support them. Governments are not football teams, and should not be cheered on as one.

What a wonderful way of looking at things. Let's see... there's the free nations around most of the world with the US dominant right now. There was Eastern Europe when the Soviets were dominant. There was Poland and Vichy France when the German's were dominant. There was genocide in Armenia when the Turks were dominant. There was genocide in China when the Japanese were dominant.

Ah, yer right, they are all pretty much the same as what happens with the US being dominant? Just semantics and yeah for the home team, eh?

 

[bluespoke]

Canada doesn't have to even think about asking, because the US has so completely protected it.

Like I said, its an intellectual exercise -- which requires exercising the brain. How long would Canada with its vast resources, weak military and small population last in a world without the US to keep global peace? It might have, possibly, taken the Soviets six months to occupy Canada... Would likely take the current Chinese about the same...

It's a totally unanswerable question. Who knows which of the bigger, but weaker, countries may have expanded their spheres of influence in a world where the US maintained an isolationist policy?

If the US were islolationist, would the Russians have built their huge arsenals? Would the Middle East be quiet and peaceful as the Israelis would never have developed without US help? Would all the massive oil revenues have gone to the UK (to Shell and BP)?

Would the European Union exist if they did not feel the need to compete? Would the brain drain of the sixties have gone into reverse with all the best US brains moving overseas?

You might as well ask, how long is a piece of string?

 

[glorfindale39]

For all we can complain about this country, it is still a great place. For all our hypocrisy, and all our pride, this nation does provide a place where a lot of good can be accomplished. Though our country often does things that many people, and many nations disagree with, we still do a great amount of good as well. For every corrupt politician there are several good American people who would do what they can to reach out to help others in the world on THEIR terms.

I have traveled in many poor nations in Central America, South America, Asia and Africa. I have seen such poverty and pain, as you can’t imagine. I have seen people who hate our country so much that I feared for my life. But I have also seen countless Americans who have donated their time and compassion to help these same people. I have seen organizations that come from the great people of this nation that have saved countless lives. These have nothing to do with our government, other then in this country they are free to operate. I fear now that with 9-11 that some of the organizations that help people in the Arab world may be falsely targeted by our government, but who can truly know if they are supporting terrorists or not. I try to keep a positive outlook, and think of the organizations that keep functioning.

What would the world be like without the US?

It would be without aid to many needy people.
It would be without a good neighbor to many free countries throughout the world.
It would be less many brilliant minds who work to better this world.
It would be without a country that has the noblest of ideals, even if they are poorly implemented sometimes.

Would it be without the many negative things we do as well? Sure. But I think if you had seem the things I have, you would feel ,as I do, that the good far out ways the bad, and I have seen the bad up close and personal.

Cheers,

G.

 

[n-erasmus]

Ingrates ...

Well you have just been criticizing our "friends" who we have been so "good" to for not appreciating what we do. You don't *LIKE* it when they disagree. These are the "American" values we have been exporting?

Again, you confuse a government with a country.

How about we implement our constitution here at home and let other people take care of themselves? What is the difference between "Isolationism" and "Freedom"? If you force me (through government action) into involvement in a foreign country, how is that "freedom"? Freedom is only for those who either agree with you or submit to you? Freedom to do as you are told?

That kind of freedom is always available, everywhere.

To fight it, we need open borders and freedom of movement. Freedom of trade helps too. Freedom.

 

[hogjack]

If there were no US

Would pp cease to exist as well?

 

[takingchances42]

Re: If there were no US

Would pp cease to exist as well?

Nah. I think he would have done well as a drunk in a system where he pretended to work, and the government pretended to pay him. Of course, he would have to get by on rotgut vodka...

 

[takingchances42]

Re: Ingrates ...

Well you have just been criticizing our "friends" who we have been so "good" to for not appreciating what we do. You don't *LIKE* it when they disagree. These are the "American" values we have been exporting?

Again, you confuse a government with a country.

How about we implement our constitution here at home and let other people take care of themselves? What is the difference between "Isolationism" and "Freedom"? If you force me (through government action) into involvement in a foreign country, how is that "freedom"? Freedom is only for those who either agree with you or submit to you? Freedom to do as you are told?

That kind of freedom is always available, everywhere.

To fight it, we need open borders and freedom of movement. Freedom of trade helps too. Freedom.

Nah. The freedom to disagree with people is the core of free speech, and I am asserting that right. I'm not confusing anything.

I think if you compare the citizens of Poland now to the citizens of Poland 20 or 30 years ago, they would happy to tell you what freedom is about. Freedom of trade, people and political ideas is what separates the current period of American dominance from other periods of domination from other cultures, and we have been doing a quite effective job of exporting those things, to the enormous benefit of the rest of the world. Not that we don't have our flaws or hypocrisies, or don't act in our own self-interests...

 

[bluespoke]

Re: Re: If there were no US

Nah. I think he would have done well as a drunk in a system where he pretended to work, and the government pretended to pay him. Of course, he would have to get by on rotgut vodka...

Of course he wouldn't. Only a few hundred miles North we manufacture the water of life.

Good Scotch whisky and English beer, what more could he wish for to drink himself into oblivion?

 

[zipman]

Thank You

For starting this thread. I am constantly amazed at the amount of anti-US sentiment on this board. I think a lot of people find it easy to criticize the US, but offer nothing constructive as another course of action.

I think a great question to ask is "what country has done more good around the world than the US?"

 

[crysede]

Canada doesn't have to even think about asking, because the US has so completely protected it.

Like I said, its an intellectual exercise -- which requires exercising the brain. How long would Canada with its vast resources, weak military and small population last in a world without the US to keep global peace? It might have, possibly, taken the Soviets six months to occupy Canada... Would likely take the current Chinese about the same...

Canada hasn't always had a weak military, when we really came into our nationhood in WWII we had a very strong military.

Although North American military history post-WWII isn't one of my strong suits, I'm fairly certain that we signed a treaty with the US agreeing not to attempt to develop our own weapons of mass destruction in return for US protection against same, and agreed to allow US forces a lot of access to our territory (since we border Russia to the north and west - the obvious path for any Russian nuke, or air assault on the US). It was also a conscious decision on the part of one of our early prime ministers to sacrifice our trade relationships with the rest of the world in favour of concentrating on trade with the US - to this end concentrating our industrial infrastructure in the mid-South of our country. Our current economic and military dependence on the US was a matter of choices our government made. These were not necessities, they were choices - we could have chosen to do otherwise.

If the US had been entirely isolationist then we would have made different choices - economically we would have likely continued to develop our overseas treading relationships, militarily we probably would have maintained our very strong military, and likely have more of a relationship with Britain then we do now. Whether we would have been better or worse off, who knows.

Personally I think it was a mistake for us to 'put all our eggs in one basket' so-to-speak, by concentrating wholly on our relationship with the US: it means that the US can at any time completely destroy our economy by imposing restrictions on cross-border traffic, so we really cannot afford to refuse to comply with any US demand. If the US demands that we adopt US immigration and border policies, our choices are economic ruin or compliance. Basically, we no sooner broke away from Britain, then we rushed to hand our newfound independence to the US.

Just to be clear, this isn't something that makes me feel the least bit negatively toward the US - our government intentionally pursued this objective, and it was their success in this endeavour that resulted in our current lack of sovereignty. I also want to make clear that it is this willing sacrifice of our sovereignty (rather than any particular US policy that we have had to adopt) that I think was a bad idea.

 

[Nathon_88]

Canada doesn't have to even think about asking, because the US has so completely protected it.

Like I said, its an intellectual exercise -- which requires exercising the brain. How long would Canada with its vast resources, weak military and small population last in a world without the US to keep global peace? It might have, possibly, taken the Soviets six months to occupy Canada... Would likely take the current Chinese about the same...

*chuckles* 6 months would be to OCCUPY it.......then the 30 million Canadians would die whilst playing guerilla warriors in the woods.

 

[70/30]

I'll summarize a statement that Colin Powell gave to the House International Relations Committee on thurs(or Fri).

America has been involved in 3 wars the past 12 years, each to liberate a Muslim country. Kuwait was invaded. In Kosovo Muslims were defended. Afghanistan was liberated. None of these instances did America get extended oil rights, etc. We do need to make our case better though and that is what the administration is currently attempting.

http://www.house.gov/international_relations/powe0919.htm

I couldn't find a complete transcript but above is Powell's opening statement. He's the country's top diplomat (only one if you ask me), he doesn't have the final word but he is much more involved than GWB, Rums, Cheney, etc. Listen to him, he makes a lot of sense and really I'm glad the state department is working 18hr days to patch up what the white house does.

 

[zipman]

I'll summarize a statement that Colin Powell gave to the House International Relations Committee on thurs(or Fri).

America has been involved in 3 wars the past 12 years, each to liberate a Muslim country. Kuwait was invaded. In Kosovo Muslims were defended. Afghanistan was liberated. None of these instances did America get extended oil rights, etc. We do need to make our case better though and that is what the administration is currently attempting.

http://www.house.gov/international_relations/powe0919.htm

I couldn't find a complete transcript but above is Powell's opening statement. He's the country's top diplomat (only one if you ask me), he doesn't have the final word but he is much more involved than GWB, Rums, Cheney, etc. Listen to him, he makes a lot of sense and really I'm glad the state department is working 18hr days to patch up what the white house does.

Exactly!

 

[Mountain Man]

If there was no US...

What would the rest of the world have to complain about...

Probably that the US was isolationists and how dare they don't share their riches with the rest of the world.

 

[Lost Cause]

This is weird!

I just got through e-mailing the German Embassy in D.C., with copies of the e-mails to my reps to pull US forces from Germany immediately! I pointed out we were the only ones with our hand out to help them in 1945, told them I've disposed of their products in protest, and for them to go home! Herr Scrotum and all his red-green party cronies can pay for their own defense! Fuck Europe, they can sleep with their enemies until they are conquered!

*If there was no US, the world population would be significantly less due to war, purges, holocaust after another, diseases out of control, flooding on a global scale. Of course, the language barrier would boil down to German, Japanese, and Italian!

 

[n-erasmus]

The *REAL* litmus test ...

For America the real test of what we do right is the backed up foot traffic of people wanting to come here to live. Now *THAT* is impressive! If others want to stay where they are that is just ducky with me.