What happens when terrorists seize a terrorist-owned vessel?

[Frimost]

A ship seized by pirates off the Somali coast two weeks ago is a Greek-owned vessel, not a British tanker as first thought, according to a maritime crime watchdog.
The International Maritime Bureau identified the vessel as the North Korean registered Jenlil.

There had earlier been confusion about the identity of the vessel and British naval forces in the area had tried to resolve the issue.

Somali militiamen holding the boat's six Georgian crew are reportedly demanding a $1m ransom.


Somali waters have been the scene of several acts of piracy and vessels are advised to keep at least 80 kilometres (50 miles) from the coast.

The country is ruled by rival warlords, having been without a central government for more than 10 years since the overthrow of President Siad Barre.

The seized vessel has been moored off the coast of Puntland, a breakaway region in the northwest of the country, aid workers in Somalia told AFP news agency.

Negotiations

They said the pirates were members of a powerful clan and that they had originally demanded $300,000 (£200,000) for the ship's return before increasing the ransom.

Ransom negotiations are already underway between a North Korean ship's owners and the pirates.

Following an earlier seizure off Puntland in the past month, the owners of a Cyprus-registered vessel paid a $400,000 (£260,000) ransom.

A helicopter from British Royal Navy frigate HMS Cumberland scoured the coast near the Somali port town of Bossasso on Sunday after reports that the vessel was British-registered.

The British Ministry of Defence told BBC News Online that the frigate had completed its search and was now continuing with its duties as part of the war against terror.

Warships from countries in the international coalition against terror formed after the 11 September attacks have been patrolling the Gulf of Aden and the Indian Ocean.

US officials have pointed to Somalia as a likely haven for wanted militants fleeing Afghanistan.

In case you have been in a cave North Korea is part of George Bush's "Axis of Evil". I wonder what is going to happen here? North Korea is not exactly patience and reason incarnate you know. Who do you root for when evil men seize a bad-guy's boat?

 

[Weird Harold]

I wonder what is going to happen here? North Korea is not exactly patience and reason incarnate you know. Who do you root for when evil men seize a bad-guy's boat?

A "Greek-owned" and "North Korean Registered" ship is probably basiclly law abiding, so I'm going to root for Greece/North Korea on this one.

What's probably going to happen is that somebody is going to pay the ransom -- probably the Greek Owner -- because North Korea doesn't have a great deal of ability to project force beyond the Korean penensula and it's surrounding waters (They may have missiles that can reach that far, but that's not a very useable force projection in this case.)

What MAY happen is that the multi-navy patrol force will find and rescue the ship under anti-piracy agreements.

 

[RudeNastyAssBitch]

Getting Hot With All The Pirate Talk!

 

[Frimost]

because North Korea doesn't have a great deal of ability to project force beyond the Korean peninsula and it's surrounding waters

What about North Korea's one 'Soho' and two 'Najin' Frigates (4,600 mile range when traveling at 14 kts)? For that matter even corvettes are considered "blue-water vessels" and N. Korea has about two or three (out of 8) Soviet 'Tral' class corvettes still operational and three or four 'Sariwan' class corvettes as well.

The North Korean/Greek owners may pay the ransom and after the ship has safely left port they might get some 4-inch shells as a present courtesy of the North Koreans!

Frankly, I don't put anything past them, when everything you do is based on image they may do allot to salve their damaged sense of pride (assassination squads, car bombings, ect.).

 

[Frimost]

RudeNastyAssBitch

Well then you should cum to my apartment sometime Rude 'n' Nasty. Seriously, I have like five or six pirate books here for you too read (all real non-fiction ones). You can read them till you're hearts content then I will fuck you silly afterwards!

 

[Weird Harold]

What about North Korea's one 'Soho' and two 'Najin' Frigates (4,600 mile range when traveling at 14 kts)? For that matter even corvettes are considered "blue-water vessels" and N. Korea has about two or three (out of 8) Soviet 'Tral' class corvettes still operational and three or four 'Sariwan' class corvettes as well.

According to my world Atlas, it's some 7,500 - 8,000 miles one-way from North Korea to Somalia, with only China and Vietnam as likely refueling ports -- still 5,000 miles one way to Somalia at the closest.

At 14 Kts, that's about 23 days steaming (plus refueling/replenishment time) from North Korea to Somalia.

The distance problems don't even address the problems of pulling "home waters defense" vessels from a paranoid country like North Korea.

IF they negotiated refueling and reprovisioning and the situation was still unresolved after 23 days, I still don't think they have the intelligence assets in that area to know where to go -- although the Brits might tell them -- or the will to try to project force that far with any of their limited naval assets.

 

[Frimost]

still 5,000 miles one way to Somalia at the closest.

Well that's what refueling tankers are for.

Anyway, there are North Koreans working in secrecy all across Africa right now> I am not sure of the total numbers but they are there right now acting as elite Presidential Bodyguards for African heads of state and as pilots for the Libyan and Sudanese AF's. One of them could strike Somalia from a Sudanese airbase nearby.

 

[Weird Harold]

Well that's what refueling tankers are for.

Anyway, there are North Koreans working in secrecy all across Africa right now> I am not sure of the total numbers but they are there right now ... One of them could strike Somalia from a Sudanese airbase nearby.

Does North Korea have any refueling tankers?

Are they willing to commit a "guard" ship for the tanker as well as one to take on the pirates?

If the North Koreans are there in secret, how is it that you know about them?

I'm sure the Sudanese will gladly provide fuel, weapons, and aircraft for a foreign national to go off on "personal business" -- NOT.

Geopolitical reality means North Korea can't touch them militarily without more cost and effort than they're willing to spend.

A lone assassin or a small covert team is all they can afford, and for Asians to go "under-cover" in an anarchist state composed of dark-skinned Africans is an oxymoron. It would be a lot like trying to sneak in after dark with a flashing neon sign and siren strapped to your back!

 

[70/30]

Ever seen Spies Like US, send two teams have one get caught, then BAM!! the other one completes the mission. Genius. All foreign policy should be conducted in Hollywood.

 

[Frimost]

If the North Koreans are there in secret, how is it that you know about them?

It's an open secret that not many civvies like me know about. It only get mentioned occasionally in hushed tones once in a blue moon in rare instances in military trade magazines and open-source intelligence sites, ect.

 

[SINthysist]

Yeah, I've got to agree that the only way to project force is to march across the 54th parallel. Which will probably happen, coincidently on the same day that the Chinese move on Taiwan, since they are gaining the ability to project force.

As for the pirates, send in the Marines!

They're good at anti-pirate stuff...

 

[Frimost]

Regarding North Korea

Forces Abroad
Advisers in some 12 African countries.

 

[Frimost]

weird_Harold is probably right, but...

Look, in all likelihood I know there is probably very little chance that North Korea will do much other than pay the ransom and add the pirates names to a long shit list of theirs that they have compiled over the last 50-years or so.

However, wouldn't it be cool if they did do something crazy and unpredictable to get retribution to those unsavory sea dogs? Maybe those outlaws will get what's coming to them and North Korea will teach them a lesson not to fuck with them?

Just imagine if they were able to get all 3 Frigates and 6 corvettes over there, for them to wake up one day in that shit-hole they are living in and look out the window to see the fleet deploying for some payback?

Have you ever seen that movie Apocalypse Now? You know when they blare that Flight of The Valkyries song over the speakers of their helicopters as they attack that Viet Cong village? Well for a naval engagement I think the perfect background music to play would be The Imperial March (Darth Vader's theme) song from The Empire Strikes Back as they get ready to kick some pirate ass!



http://war.defence.co.kr/nknavy/03-04.jpg
Here is a North Korean 'Najin'-class Frigate.

 

[Lost Cause]

Our satellites probably know.....

The GPS of that vessel. A quick flyby with a Spectre gunship with 30mm chainguns ablazin', and cap it with a 105mm APFSDS-DU round through the hull. That solves our problem with N.K., the Somali, the pirates, and the sealife that will call the ship home! (they'd probably hit it at altitude from a F-117, but I like the "up close and personal" approach!)

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: weird_Harold is probably right, but...

However, wouldn't it be cool if they did do something crazy and unpredictable to get retribution to those unsavory sea dogs? Maybe those outlaws will get what's coming to them and North Korea will teach them a lesson not to fuck with them?

Just imagine if they were able to get all 3 Frigates and 6 corvettes over there, for them to wake up one day in that shit-hole they are living in and look out the window to see the fleet deploying for some payback?

Of course I'm right, you silly boy. I'm almost always right.

First, You kep forgetting a key fact -- the vessel being held is greek owned and the North Koreans aren't going to do anything extreme about a ship that quite possibly has never been seen by a North Korean.

They're certainly not going to send their entire blue-water Navy 8000 miles away from home.

The ship pictured has what, five inch class guns? Something comparable to one of our USCG cutters? It's a "Customs Boat" more than a serious offensive threat, isn't it?

I think Lost Cause has the right general idea bout it's surviveability, but the wrong "answer." North Korea's Frigates and Corvettes don't have to worry about US precision guidance -- why would we waste the jet fuel?

Consider this though:

The captured ship is being held close in-shore -- rescue ships would have to come close in-shore as well, at least into range for five inch naval guns.

The warlord holding the ship doesn't have a navy, but he does have anti-tank weapons, recoilless guns and artillery peices in the 88MM to 105MM range, various tactical surface-to-surface rockets, and possibly some soviet built tanks. All of those things have ranges comparable to five inch naval guns, and the warlord probably has more of them than the entire North Korean Navy!

Estimate the probable fate of a Frigate or Corvette that comes close enough in-shore to use it's own guns. Factor in the probability that the warlord holding the ship probably expects someone to try to rescue the ship and will have most of his heavy weapons close by.

I cn't positively predict wht North Korea will or won't do, but I really can't see them exerting themselves over a "flag of convenience" on a Greek-owned ship.

 

[Frimost]

The North Koreans are involved somehow

I admit this is all very confusing...

They said the pirates were members of a powerful clan and that they had originally demanded $300,000 (£200,000) for the ship's return before increasing the ransom.

Ransom negotiations are already underway between a North Korean ship's owners and the pirates.

Some North Korean has certainly seen it before.
Are you sure it’s not the other way around? A North Korean
ship under a Greek flag of convenience with Georgian crew?

An interesting modification on many of the larger Patrol vessels made by North Korea is too not only use the gun of a tank on them but to slap-on the entire damn turret of a T-34/85 or T-54/55 main battle tank onto the ship! I bet these babies could take a good pounding in at close range and are probably hard to hit from shore.

The guns of the 'Najin'-class Frigate are 100mm L/56 ones, the offensive threat from it is posed by it's 2 SS-N-2A 'Styx' anti-ship missile launchers on it's deck and triple 21-inch torpedo tubes.

I highly doubt the Pirates are expecting a rescue of any kind. No one EVER does that in real life for Pirate seized booty (other than maybe the U.S.). That stuff only happens in the movies, that’s why it would be a neat surprise attack that they would be shocked would ever occur.

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: The North Koreans are involved somehow

Some North Korean has certainly seen it before.
Are you sure it’s not the other way around? A North Korean
ship under a Greek flag of convenience with Georgian crew?

from your original post:
A ship seized by pirates off the Somali coast two weeks ago is a Greek-owned vessel, not a British tanker as first thought, according to a maritime crime watchdog.
The International Maritime Bureau identified the vessel as the North Korean registered Jenlil.

All that means, is that some North Korean has laid eyes on the ships papers and collected the registration fee. Depending on where the fee was paid, the consul or ambassador might have gone down to the docks to make sure there really was a ship -- I doubt he was very much concerned that it actually matched the papers. "Flag of Convenience" registrations are usually a cash transaction and a simple means of raising cash for small countries. They work best when few questions are asked.

An interesting modification on many of the larger Patrol vessels made by North Korea is too not only use the gun of a tank on them but to slap-on the entire damn turret of a T-34/85 or T-54/55 main battle tank onto the ship!

Patrol vessels are not blue water frigates or corvettes. The gun might be well protected inthe turret, but it doesn't fire very well if the ship's hull is holed and the ship sinks.

The guns of the 'Najin'-class Frigate are 100mm L/56 ones, the offensive threat from it is posed by it's 2 SS-N-2A 'Styx' anti-ship missile launchers on it's deck and triple 21-inch torpedo tubes.

Anti-ship missiles and torpedos aren't much good against land based artillery. Even if they used them, that's five shots against something that can't sink and is probbly firing form multiple positions.

The 100MM guns are about what I thought they'd be from the pictures -- four inchers rather than five inchers, but close enough. About an even match for 105MM shore batteries -- one on one. Of course, a "powerful Somali warlord" should be able to field at least twice as many 105MM clas guns as the four 100MM guns shown on the picture.

I highly doubt the Pirates are expecting a rescue of any kind. No one EVER does that in real life for Pirate seized booty (other than maybe the U.S.). That stuff only happens in the movies, that’s why it would be a neat surprise attack that they would be shocked would ever occur.

Actually, the Brits and Isrealis are more likely to mount a rescue mission thanthe US would be in this type situation. The US would probably make do with a show of force and threats unless the strike force happened to be on hand. We have engaged in rescue missions, but it's basiclly not our style.

Rescue missions against pirates and/or highjackers have been done in "real life" often enough by enough different countries that it would take a pretty dumb warlord not to take precautions -- or a very egotistical one.

I really think the pirates are going to win this one -- the greek owners will negotiate some amount less than the 300 grand initially asked and buy their ship back.

 

[Frimost]

I wasn't suggesting they try and use torpedoes and anti-ship missiles against a land target! lol I was just pointing out that it has allot more punch than a simple Coast Guard cutter.

Most rescue operations are done when terrorists hijack a vessel for political reasons and demands. The rules are different when its just pirates wanting money it seems.

Now I don't know about Israel or Britain, but I do believe that we are the only nation in recent times to have actually mounted a recovery mission against pirates when we attempted the rescue of the SS Mayaguez in 1975.


Point taken about the PT-boats, some "Patrol Boats" are nearly big enough to be considered Corvettes and have a certain degree of "Blue-water" capability. However, I looked up this particular type that I mentioned and it was only 82-tons and about 95-feet long with a crew of 25. Coincidentally, it was two of these types, armed with 85mm guns, that sunk that South Korean Patrol vessel in that dust up earlier a few weeks ago over that disputed island.

 

[Weird Harold]

I wasn't suggesting they try and use torpedoes and anti-ship missiles against a land target! lol I was just pointing out that it has allot more punch than a simple Coast Guard cutter.

But NOT against a land target. With four guns, they probably have more punch than the single rapid fire 5 inch gun on USCG cutters. It would depend on the rate of fire.

I've never paid much attention to the distinction between terrorists and pirates when it it comes to naval highjackings -- the line is pretty much blurred when only the motive differs and the actions are the same. I vaguely recall the Mayguez incident as being referred to as a "highjacking" in the news without any speculation about motives. I was in England at the time and didn't have access to the American viewpoint.

The reconaisance by a British Helo that identified the ship would seem to indicate that the English would mount a rescue in this case if it were a British ship. I'm sure the Isrealis would mount one for their ships. although the odds are that it would be against terrorists instead of pirates if the ship were Israeli -- there are more terrorist trying to highjack their shipping than pirates.

The pirates seem to have been bright enough to pick a flag that can't or won't retaliate so the owners would have to negotiate. They're probably also bright enough to plant scuttling charges to thwart any resue attempt and ring the mooring with artillery.

PS: this thread has been fun, but the horse is dead now.

 

[Lost Cause]

Maybe another option...

Underwater Demolitions Team. The "pirates" probably moved the crew off ship to shore, the UDT could disable the ship's screw, making it useless, other than for a houseboat. A small (8 man) "B" Team could do a recon watch (two weeks) to establish the patrol patterns, and probable hostage location. The snatch could occur with little notice, when clear of the area, the UDT would blow the ship, and call it a writeoff between the owners and insurers. I would not rule out the use of incapacitating gas in the immediate area, we used to practice that quite alot and was scheduled to be used in the Iranian hostage operation. (Thanks for fucking that up Jimmy, you killed two of my friends!)

 

[Frimost]

I highly doubt those Somalian terrorists have any acess to sea mines of any kind.

In any case, part of the question would be whether they were really trying to destroy the pirates or just mount a symbolic act of retaliation, in which case a couple dozen shells sprayed wildy into the city at night would suffice. At the very least they could simply sink all of the pirate's boats that are docked there as revenge.

If they could get those little tank-turreted PT boats over there somehow they certainly would be able to kick some ass though...Since they have 51 of them! They also have 52 Chaho-class assault support boats armed with 122mm 40-barrelled multiple rocket-launchers! Those could cause some havoc on the scurvy sea dog's lair.

They are all too small to make a difference though unless they were delivered to another nearby port via container ship and then placed back into the water as if they were delivering an order.

As for large Patrol vessels that may have some type of Blue water significance, they also have 13 Taechong I/II class large patrol boats. These vessels are also armed with a 100mm gun, are 425-tons each, have a crew of 80, and are about 200-feet long.

In any case, if or until some further news comes out to the contrary you are right about it being a moot point.

 

[Frimost]

How about a good old-fashioned carpet-bombing?

The North Koreans have 85 IL-28 'Beagle' tactical bombers. These aircraft have a maximum ferry range of 1,355 miles. They could slap-on some fuel tanks and hop-scotch across the continent from friendly airport to freindly airport in order to refuel there (mostly in China). Then once they got to Southern Sudan they could have a bunch of iron dumb-bombs there already waiting for them. They can simply load 'em up there to their full 6,615-pound payload and make the trip to this Somalian Pirate town and wipe it off the map. They have a range of 684-miles when at full-load of ordnance, maybe they would need an Ethiopian airstrip to launch an attack from?


Bombs Away! Beagles drop their load on some target...
http://legion.wplus.net/guide/air/b/h5-1.jpg

Even if this is all a moot point it's still fun to talk about and perhaps interested lurkers may be learning something in the process?

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

In case you have been in a cave North Korea is part of George Bush's "Axis of Evil". I wonder what is going to happen here? North Korea is not exactly patience and reason incarnate you know. Who do you root for when evil men seize a bad-guy's boat?

You root for a high casualty rate on both sides.

 

[Jonnyray]

What about North Korea's one 'Soho' and two 'Najin' Frigates (4,600 mile range when traveling at 14 kts)? For that matter even corvettes are considered "blue-water vessels" and N. Korea has about two or three (out of 8) Soviet 'Tral' class corvettes still operational and three or four 'Sariwan' class corvettes as well.

The North Korean/Greek owners may pay the ransom and after the ship has safely left port they might get some 4-inch shells as a present courtesy of the North Koreans!

Frankly, I don't put anything past them, when everything you do is based on image they may do allot to salve their damaged sense of pride (assassination squads, car bombings, ect.).

The North Korean Navy? Assuming any one of them could put to sea - I mean real deep water - for more than a day or two, they have to deal with a)poorly trained crews b) a number of countries who wouldn't allow them harbor facilities for refueling c) pirates in Indonesia d) etc.

Someone else will have to be NK's big stick

 

[Frimost]

Well if they are on their way to kick some Pirate ass to began with, then any Pirates in Indonesia would be pretty damn stupid to try fucking with them in the first place. Hell, Indonesian pirates are a hell of allot closer to them then Somalian pirates and if they are heavily armed enough to be out on a mission of pounding pirates then bitch-slapping some other pirates would be easy enough to do.

From what I have seen many in North Korea's armed forces seem very well trained, especially by the standards of a third-world nation or adversary of ours. They did just recently manage to sink a large South Korean naval patrol vessel in a sea battle a month or two ago.