What happened to "integrity" in War.

[Fala]

Weren't we all civilized at one point in our evolution? Fought wars mostly in and over fairness and might? Strategy, sweat, patriotism?

With all due respect to all who lost their lives over the many eons...

Wasn't there once an honor code in war? Past War Heros and Leaders must be turning over in their graves these days.

 

[Mahnoor]

Obama's fault....wait for it.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Wasn't there once an honor code in war?

Depends on the culture and period. I'm sure all warriors have always considered cowardice dishonorable, but atrocities are another story, look at the Mongols, and standards have varied widely on things like treatment of prisoners and the acceptable limits of military deception.

I recall a verse from a filksong:

We Dorsai have honor, we always fight fair
Except when we're losing, and then we don't care
For defeat is disgrace that we never can bear
And we only get paid when we're winning!

 

[Ms_Ann]

Weren't we all civilized at one point in our evolution? Fought wars mostly in and over fairness and might? Strategy, sweat, patriotism?

With all due respect to all who lost their lives over the many eons...

Wasn't there once an honor code in war? Past War Heros and Leaders must be turning over in their graves these days.

No such thing. Ever.

 

[VeraBad]

Weren't we all civilized at one point in our evolution? Fought wars mostly in and over fairness and might? Strategy, sweat, patriotism?

With all due respect to all who lost their lives over the many eons...

Wasn't there once an honor code in war? Past War Heros and Leaders must be turning over in their graves these days.

What the fuck are you snorting? Wars ALWAYS unleashed the worst in men. You don't think rapes are/were rampant? You don't think officers sacrificed their men just to maybe get another medal. You don't think humans and animals were killed just to ease the boredom or relieve stress? You think people would admit to committing these acts?

Go dress up like a pilot and stand on the Intrepid you stupid, stupid, stupid, lying piece of shit.

 

[VeraBad]

Obama's fault....wait for it.

That was the set-up.

 

[rocket_surgery]

Weren't we all civilized at one point in our evolution? Fought wars mostly in and over fairness and might? Strategy, sweat, patriotism?

With all due respect to all who lost their lives over the many eons...

Wasn't there once an honor code in war? Past War Heros and Leaders must be turning over in their graves these days.

Honor and any code in war went out the window the very first time someone fought without it. If one side fights with honor and the other side fights to win, guess which side is gonna win.
Besides, what honor is there in war? You're killing or being killed by people you never met and whom you almost certainly don't have anything personal against. The only people who can sit there and say anyone fought with honor and fairness are people who weren't fighting.

 

[VeraBad]

Weren't we all civilized at one point in our evolution? Fought wars mostly in and over fairness and might? Strategy, sweat, patriotism?

With all due respect to all who lost their lives over the many eons...

Wasn't there once an honor code in war? Past War Heros and Leaders must be turning over in their graves these days.

You obviously don't have a family history people who have served. I guess that family history of alternating foot ankle spurs...

 

[oggbashan]

...

Wasn't there once an honor code in war? Past War Heros and Leaders must be turning over in their graves these days.

There was and is the Geneva Convention (which Japan hadn't signed before Pearl Harbor).

But apart from the Geneva Convention, the Nuremberg Trials established a principle that individuals were responsible for the actions and couldn't claim 'I was just following orders' if an atrocity was committed as an act of war.

In practice the honor code was broken in almost all wars since the start of the 19th Century despite public statements to the contrary. The winners decide what war crimes are.

 

[Fala]

Depends on the culture and period. I'm sure all soldiers have always considered cowardice dishonorable, but atrocities are another story, look at the Mongols, and standards have varied widely on things like treatment of prisoners and the acceptable limits of military deception.

I recall a verse from a filksong:

We Dorsai have honor, we always fight fair
Except when we're losing, and then we don't care
For defeat is disgrace that we never can bear
And we only get paid when we're winning!

Oh wow! KingOrfeo, I love that! I love history, I love hearing of things that, as a female, would most likely never experience.

Any and all recollections and stories are appreciated. KingOrfeo....I can totally understand ANY turning point in war now.

 

[jaF0]

The very nature of war is that the parties have lost the integrity of negotiating their differences.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Besides, what honor is there in war?

That of risking one's life and limbs for one's community. Practically all human cultures have considered that honorable.

 

[rocket_surgery]

That of risking one's life and limbs for one's community. Practically all human cultures have considered that honorable.

That's honor in dying. There is no honor in war.

 

[Fala]

You obviously don't have a family history people who have served. I guess that family history of alternating foot ankle spurs...

Well, Vera..."which is further?, to Dallas or by bus"?

That didn't make sense to you? Well, neither did your comment to me.

Getting back...My Grandfather stood guard on the Isle of Truk as the captured Japanese soldiers were made to deposit their weapons in surrender.

One Japanese Colonel (Grandpa said), stepped forward and laid his sword at his feet. Don't know why...but Grandpa befriended him and took food, other supplies to him during his internment there.

I have this Japanese soldiers sword...Grandpa gave it to me.

Hrrm....Then there is my Father who is 100% disabled because of his time in the Vietnam war. Agent orange really messed him up.

I've spent time overseas due to my Dad's time in the USAF.

Lawdy...husband is retired US Army and SIL is retired Lt. Col. Air Force.

....just sayin'.

 

[KingOrfeo]

That's honor in dying. There is no honor in war.

Well, there's also the honor of making an unusual kind of effort for one's community. Soldiering ain't easy, and one must endure all kinds of unpleasant conditions, even when not in combat.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Oh wow! KingOrfeo, I love that! I love history, I love hearing of things that, as a female, would most likely never experience.

Any and all recollections and stories are appreciated. KingOrfeo....I can totally understand ANY turning point in war now.

Watch yourself carefully, now; this borders on sarcasm. And not on appropriate sarcasm.

 

[Fala]

Well, there's also the honor of making an unusual kind of effort for one's community. Soldiering ain't easy, and one must endure all kinds of unpleasant conditions, even when not in combat.

Your post here, KingOrfeo, is EXACTLY the conversation/posts I was looking for!

 

[rocket_surgery]

Well, there's also the honor of making an unusual kind of effort for one's community. Soldiering ain't easy, and one must endure all kinds of unpleasant conditions, even when not in combat.

That's honor in serving. No honor in war.

 

[Fala]

That's honor in serving. No honor in war.

Is it not honor to risk ones life to a cause?

 

[Fala]

Holy crap! my last comment scared the hell outta me. I'm drunk and I'm outta here.

Please....the rest of you continue..my inspiration to start this thread was true.

Take care all~

 

[rocket_surgery]

Is it not honor to risk ones life to a cause?

Yes but that's not honor in war. You can't have honor when a child is begging and pleading for his life while holding his own guts in and you put a bullet in his head and move on while leaving him there to rot all the while knowing that his brothers in arms are waiting to do the exact same thing to you as soon as they get the chance.
There's no integrity there and the only code is kill or be killed.

 

[sr71plt]

Weren't we all civilized at one point in our evolution? Fought wars mostly in and over fairness and might? Strategy, sweat, patriotism?

With all due respect to all who lost their lives over the many eons...

Wasn't there once an honor code in war? Past War Heros and Leaders must be turning over in their graves these days.

I think a great awakening on a shift came at the Battle of Saratoga in the American revolution when the Americans found they were capturing German mercenaries fighting for the British twice. Until then, you sent mercenaries how when captured under the understanding they were done and wouldn't come back. After the Battle of Saratoga, for the first time the German mercenaries had to be interred until the end of the war rather than sent home to Germany.

But there are examples, I'm sure, before then. The point probably is that whenever the change of honor in war happened, it wasn't as recent as many think.

 

[handysr]

Well, there's also the honor of making an unusual kind of effort for one's community. Soldiering ain't easy, and one must endure all kinds of unpleasant conditions, even when not in combat.

Agreed!

Very few people [ii]want[/i] to go to war, but it is an honor to be able to represent your country and (hopefully) defend your way of life, and keeping your family and friends save from the ones who would do them wrong.

But honor in war? Do you mean two sides facing each other in long lines taking turns shooting at each other while wearing uniforms that make easy targets? Then at sundown, the general from both sides meet up for tea? No. I don't think so.

War isn't about dying for your country, it's about making the others die for theirs until there aren't enough left to defend themselves. It's usually the young and strong men and women that are the ones pulling the triggers. The fat old rich politicians sit behind a desk and wave away causality reports, wondering how they can turn the news into something people want to hear. Then they talk to the people who have bought them off, asking how the economy of war is making them mountains of cash.

 

[rocket_surgery]

I think a great awakening on a shift came at the Battle of Saratoga in the American revolution when the Americans found they were capturing German mercenaries fighting for the British twice. Until then, you sent mercenaries how when captured under the understanding they were done and wouldn't come back. After the Battle of Saratoga, for the first time the German mercenaries had to be interred until the end of the war rather than sent home to Germany.

But there are examples, I'm sure, before then. The point probably is that whenever the change of honor in war happened, it wasn't as recent as many think.

Rules always break down in war. Always. Facing death has a way of making a person not give a shit about the rules anymore and do whatever it takes to survive/win. No doubt goes back the first wars but we have a tendency to look at the nice clean lines of soldiers bravely standing there and shooting, never wavering. That happened but so did Pvt so-and-so shooting a guy in the back to save his own skin.

 

[Fala]

Ok, I had to pop back in to acknowledge the last poster, SrHandySr....

"War isn't about dying for your country, it's about making the others die for theirs"

My husband has told me this many times during our convos on war.